Six wheel coaches

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Lads what is the best option for six wheel coaches? I'm definitely a rookie at this era and I need guidance, is there ready to run options or is it kit only?

[Westcorkrailway]

17 minutes ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

Lads what is the best option for six wheel coaches? I'm definitely a rookie at this era and I need guidance, is there ready to run options or is it kit only?

Hattons (well I suppose it’s rails of Sheffield now!) are launching there rtr CIE 6 wheel coaches. They should be unreal when they release later this year, although not rivet counter freindly. I would say there the best option if you can get your hands on them 

 

you could always try your hand at respraying the horny/hatons ones but I’ve no idea how easy that is

 

for accurate ones studio scale models do some fine Irish 6 wheel kits. Im sure worsely works also do etches 

[Metrovik]

While waiting for Hattons Coaches to eventually arrive, I've picked up a pair of old ratio kits, which at £5 a pop when I bought them, will look just fine once sprayed green. I highly doubt they're in anyway prototypicalish to Irish stock though. ( I can't believe it.... I kinda answered a question instead of asking it!) 

[derek]

11 minutes ago, Metrovik said:

 prototypicalish 

So  that's a word now? I like it

[Metrovik]

33 minutes ago, Metrovik said:

While waiting for Hattons Coaches to eventually arrive, I've picked up a pair of old ratio kits, which at £5 a pop when I bought them, will look just fine once sprayed green. I highly doubt they're in anyway prototypicalish to Irish stock though. ( I can't believe it.... I kinda answered a question instead of asking it!) 

Hold on, these are 4 wheeled coaches

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

18 minutes ago, Metrovik said:

Hold on, these are 4 wheeled coaches

I didn't want to say

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Metrovik said:

While waiting for Hattons Coaches to eventually arrive, I've picked up a pair of old ratio kits, which at £5 a pop when I bought them, will look just fine once sprayed green. I highly doubt they're in anyway prototypicalish to Irish stock though. ( I can't believe it.... I kinda answered a question instead of asking it!) 

Indeed - too short, and Ireland never had 4-wheelers of that type of English long wheelbase style.

But €5 each and a slap of green paint can’t be sneezed at!

[Mayner]

Funnily enough the Historic Model Railway Society have builders drawings of long wheel base 4 wheelers built for the Waterford and Central of Ireland and Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore but likely to have disappeared after the GSWR takeover of the two lines in the early 1900s.

The Waterford and Central of Ireland 4 compartment second similar length but quite different in outline to the Ratio GWR second.

The Ratio GWR 4 wheelers are not dissimilar in outline to some ex-Waterford Limerick and Western 6 wheel coaches that survived into CIE days including the turned down ends which were unusual in Ireland (the WLWR engineer was an ex-GWR man).

I  assembled a Ratio 4 wheel GWR Brake end as an ex-WLWR 6 wheeler using a brass 6w chassis kit from the UK, but probably simplest to have a go at assembling a Ratio 4 wheeler and painting it in CIE or GSR colours if your unable to get a Rails CIE 6 wheeler.

Eoin Murray has done a series of articles on assembling the Studio Scale Models GSWR 6wheelers on his ECM Model Trains in the Manufacturer's section of the Newsgroup and Popeye has a piece on assembling a GSWR 6w coach from a Worsley Works set of parts on his work bench thread if your interested in seeing what's involved.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Eoin Murray’s SSM ones unveiled tonight on Dugort Harbour thread.

It will be interesting to see them alongside a shiny IRM silver Park Royal, or indeed compared with the Hattons ones.

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Eoin Murray’s SSM ones unveiled tonight on Dugort Harbour thread.

It will be interesting to see them alongside a shiny IRM silver Park Royal, or indeed compared with the Hattons ones.

Now that's handsome.

[BosKonay]

Very nice indeed! Last i heard the hattons genesis run was due to be complete at the factory this month or early next. 

[Flying Snail]

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - too short, and Ireland never had 4-wheelers of that type of English long wheelbase style.

 

14 hours ago, Mayner said:

Funnily enough the Historic Model Railway Society have builders drawings of long wheel base 4 wheelers built for the Waterford and Central of Ireland and Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore but likely to have disappeared after the GSWR takeover of the two lines in the early 1900s.

The Waterford and Central of Ireland 4 compartment second similar length but quite different in outline to the Ratio GWR second.

I think @jhb171achill is using reverse psychology here ... and trying to push you into building him a WCIR 4-wheeler to remind him that they existed. He probably told Eoin Murray there was no way he could produce an authentic rake of 6 wheelers in 1950s condition - probably said it was impossible to weather a brake third so convincingly that folks wouldn't be able to tell if it was still in traffic or on the scrap line....

Eoin's 6 wheeler rake is stunning, it'll fit in perfectly in Dugort: Looking forward to the pictures and tales from Dugort that they'll be a part of.

And I for one, would love a WCIR four-wheeler - just sayin' 

5 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Very nice indeed! Last i heard the hattons genesis run was due to be complete at the factory this month or early next. 

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to these too - I think they'll help to build interest in the 40s - 60s period. Would have loved to see them in GSR and GWSR liveries too.

Edited May 3 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

Hattons had been considering this, and had asked me to supply livery details along with “nearest equivalent” suitable carriage numbers, immediately before the news broke of their demise.

I had actually sent them details of the later GSR maroon (easy, as it was the same as LMS), and the earlier very dark chocolatey-crimson shade.

Six wheelers are not known to ever have carried the short-lived “main line” chocolate & cream livery, nor did the GSWR put cream upper panels on them.

Pity it wasn’t to be.

[jhb171achill]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

Funnily enough the Historic Model Railway Society have builders drawings of long wheel base 4 wheelers built for the Waterford and Central of Ireland and Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore but likely to have disappeared after the GSWR takeover of the two lines in the early 1900s.

The Waterford and Central of Ireland 4 compartment second similar length but quite different in outline to the Ratio GWR second.

The Ratio GWR 4 wheelers are not dissimilar in outline to some ex-Waterford Limerick and Western 6 wheel coaches that survived into CIE days including the turned down ends 

True, but my point was - if you look at the body design & panelling, and wheelbase.

The Ratio-type, used by a number of British railway companies, used the same type of “modern” body type & profile as main line bogies. I’ve an idea some even had toilets.

Four wheelers here in design terms belonged to an earlier era, with body design similar to 1870s. Also, wheelbases for four-wheelers were a lot shorter. The Ratio type, in having a much longer wheelbase, plus 1880s onwards body design, are thus not at all like anything 4-wheeled we ever had - they look more like our 6-wheelers.

Most Irish railways used a standard length of 30ft for 6-wheelers. The Ratio yokes are about 26ft, by the look of them.

As you say, the curved-in ends, commonplace among a number of British companies (MR & GWR particularly) were unknown in Ireland with the exception of some on the WLWR, so on that third basis the Ratio kit is immediately “un-Irish”.

As an aside, those Hornby clerestorey roofed bogies bear a good resemblance, due to their curved ends, to several WLWR prototypes, provided the clerestorey is removed and replaced by a “flat” roof. The brake third is especially suitable, as apart from having an extra compartment it is very similar to a pair of WLWR brake thirds which lasted until 1954 & 1955.

[DoctorPan]

 

 

Ratio coaches look close enough for turf coaches considering how battered the prototypes looked. 

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

 

 

Ratio coaches look close enough for turf coaches considering how battered the prototypes looked. 

Now that's a good use indeed!

[DiveController]

11 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

 

 

Ratio coaches look close enough for turf coaches considering how battered the prototypes looked. 

OMG!  

I knew someone would recreate this in model form one day

@derek near the end of their lives some of the GSWR (I think) 6wheelers were used to transport turf after the roofs were removed . This may have been during the Great Emergency @jhb171achill

[Mayner]

19 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

True, but my point was - if you look at the body design & panelling, and wheelbase.

The Ratio-type, used by a number of British railway companies, used the same type of “modern” body type & profile as main line bogies. I’ve an idea some even had toilets.

Four wheelers here in design terms belonged to an earlier era, with body design similar to 1870s. Also, wheelbases for four-wheelers were a lot shorter. The Ratio type, in having a much longer wheelbase, plus 1880s onwards body design, are thus not at all like anything 4-wheeled we ever had - they look more like our 6-wheelers.

Most Irish railways used a standard length of 30ft for 6-wheelers. The Ratio yokes are about 26ft, by the look of them.

JHB my main reason for posting the drawing of the WICR 4w Composite was to demonstrate that it was of a similar length to a GWR 4 w Composite, I reproduce the drawing in a similar style to the Metropolitan GA and did not clearly reproduce the critical dimensions.

For the record the Metropolitan GA specifies an underframe length of 24"11" a a wheelbase of 14'.  GWR 4 wheel composite 290 under restoration at Didcot is listed as 26'10". possibly over buffers) 

From memory the WDLR Brake is listed as a 24' vehicle, while photos on the IRRS Flickr site indicate that Bandon, Macroom and surprisingly GSWR 4w coaches survived into GSR and even CIE days.

While the photos of the Bandon and Macroom coaches indicate that though were basic in outline they appear to be 24-25' 4-5 compartment coaches rather than the shortie 4w coaches of the pre-1870s era.

Interestingly there are a number of  Robin Clements photos in the IRRS Fliikr site of ex-GSWR 4w 5 Compt. 3rd 933 and 4 Compt. 3rd (probably ex composite) in GSWR/-early GSR livery at the Newbridge Ballast pit in 1948.  The coaches probably ex-WLWR appear to have been built as 4 wheelers rather than 6w with the centre axle removed, the panelling is similar to the Ratio GWR coaches but without the turned in ends. 

Unable to display or post links to photos on IRRS Flickr site

5 Compt 3rd 933---IRRS Flickr site Carriages 1/2 way down Page 4----4 Compt. 3rd 382 3/4 way down Page 4.

Interestingly 933 is listed as a 6w Lavatory Tri-Composite of 1895 and 382 as a w6 4 Compartment 1st of 1886 in the 1934 diagram book

Its possible the GSWR thought these coaches were worth keeping until they required major overhaul or "renewal" and not recorded in the 1924 GSWR Diagram Book in which no 4w passenger carrying vehicles are recorded.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4 by Mayner

[Galteemore]

7 hours ago, DiveController said:

OMG!  

I knew someone would recreate this in model form one day

@derek near the end of their lives some of the GSWR (I think) 6wheelers were used to transport turf after the roofs were removed . This may have been during the Great Emergency @jhb171achill

@David Holmandid a turf train some time ago. Attracts great interest at UK shows. Yes, the turf trains ran from the west to supply a dump at Phoenix Park during the Emergency.

[DoctorPan]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

@David Holmandid a turf train some time ago. Attracts great interest at UK shows. Yes, the turf trains ran from the west to supply a dump at Phoenix Park during the Emergency.

 

Indeed the inspiration behind my batch as a lock down project!

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

JHB my main reason for posting the drawing of the WICR 4w Composite was to demonstrate that it was of a similar length to a GWR 4 w Composite, I reproduce the drawing in a similar style to the Metropolitan GA and did not clearly reproduce the critical dimensions.

For the record the Metropolitan GA specifies an underframe length of 24"11" a a wheelbase of 14'.  GWR 4 wheel composite 290 under restoration at Didcot is listed as 26'10". possibly over buffers) 

From memory the WDLR Brake is listed as a 24' vehicle, while photos on the IRRS Flickr site indicate that Bandon, Macroom and surprisingly GSWR 4w coaches survived into GSR and even CIE days.

While the photos of the Bandon and Macroom coaches indicate that though were basic in outline they appear to be 24-25' 4-5 compartment coaches rather than the shortie 4w coaches of the pre-1870s era.

Interestingly there are a number of  Robin Clements photos in the IRRS Fliikr site of ex-GSWR 4w 5 Compt. 3rd 933 and 4 Compt. 3rd (probably ex composite) in GSWR/-early GSR livery at the Newbridge Ballast pit in 1948.  The coaches probably ex-WLWR appear to have been built as 4 wheelers rather than 6w with the centre axle removed, the panelling is similar to the Ratio GWR coaches but without the turned in ends. 

Unable to display or post links to photos on IRRS Flickr site

5 Compt 3rd 933---IRRS Flickr site Carriages 1/2 way down Page 4----4 Compt. 3rd 382 3/4 way down Page 4.

Interestingly 933 is listed as a 6w Lavatory Tri-Composite of 1895 and 382 as a w6 4 Compartment 1st of 1886 in the 1934 diagram book

Its possible the GSWR thought these coaches were worth keeping until they required major overhaul or "renewal" and not recorded in the 1924 GSWR Diagram Book in which no 4w passenger carrying vehicles are recorded.

 

 

 

 

Saw that - most interesting that anything like this existed at all, let alone lasted into GSR days!

A coach number in the GSR’s 900 series (933) will indeed be of WLWR origin; in the case of a vehicle like this, probably W & L.

[David Holman]

They are indeed WL&WR. They are resin cast sides that I did from my own masters, with the turf being chopped up match sticks. A description is on page 20 of my work bench thread.