"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

Starting anew in Irish 4mm scale modelling, I'm considering the gauge question. I thought I'd do some experiments to see how easy or hard it was to regauge rolling stock to 21mm, before making a final decision.

Of course it's more complicated than just the gauge. There are different wheel standards and back-to-backs to consider, which seems a bit of a minefield! For now I'm going to see what's possible by re-using the existing wheelsets.

 

Anyway, I started at the relatively cheap end of the scale and bought some spare IRM Y33 bogies as a starting point. It was fairly easy to remove the wheelsets and I was able to tap the axles through the wheels to achieve a 19.2mm back-to-back (which is one of the dimensions I've seen quoted). Assembling the wheelsets back into the bogies was straightforward and the wheels then had a much better alignment to the axleboxes and the representation of brake gear. This photo shows before and after on my dual gauge track:

I don't really have a use for these bogies at present, but they will be good for testing track as the wheel/rail interface is quite visible. I might re-gauge the other one and connect them with a strip of perspex for that purpose.

 

I'll describe the second project in the next post.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[Mol_PMB]

Project number 2 was an IRM corrugated open wagon.

Again, it was reasonably straightforward to extract the wheelsets and tap the wheels along the axles. However, the maximum back-to-back I could achieve was 19.0mm - any more than this and the wheels rubbed on the back of the W iron mouldings. To achieve a largere BTB would require a thinner, more finescale wheel profile.

On this model, the brake shoes are positioned to align with the 16.5mm gauge wheels, foul the wheel flanges when the wheels are set to 21mm gauge. However, the brake gear is very simple (as per the prototype) and I found that by levering with a tiny screwdriver I could release the brake hanger from its mounting hole in the chassis.

I then used a small drill bit to slightly enlarge the tapered slot next to the hole, so I could push the brake hanger back in there. With a small tweak to the brake push rod safety loop, the brake shoe aligned with the wheel quite well:

It's not perfect but it looks fine from normal viewing angles. In due course I'll apply a tiny blob of glue to hold it in the new position:

I suspect that modifying the brakes on the forthcoming vac-fitted H van will be much more challenging!

 

Next I realised that the buffer spacing looked very wrong on the broad gauge track. On this model, the buffers are set to match GB rolling stock for some reason, and they ought to be further apart for an Irish vehicle. I decided to take the plunge and try to change them. Also, I wanted to represent a wagon retro-fitted with the larger buffers, like this one:

I was unable to remove the old buffers without damaging them badly. I temporarily removed the wagon body and sanded down the remains, and then re-drilled new larger holes in a better position:

The buffers I had in stock looked about right until I held them up against the wagon headstock, and then they looked too big! But looking back at the prototype photo the base of the buffers is a fair bit taller than the headstock section. I'll have a think about it and see if I can find an alternative buffer if I decide these ones aren't right. Any suggestions welcome!

In the meantime, here's a view of the bufferless wagon on the broad gauge track:

I've ordered a couple of wagon kits which I plan to build to 21mm gauge - that may be easier than modifying RTR where suitable kits are available.

 

My main stumbling block for the kits is the broad gauge wheelsets. I think I'll try the dodge of cutting the axle in half and sleeving it.

 

Please tell me if there are better approaches to re-gauging, or if you have advice on back-to-back, finer wheel profiles or sourcing wheelsets - I feel I'm stumbling a bit on the path to 21mm...

 

[Galteemore]

All of us broad gaugers stumble a bit! Looking good so far. Sleeving axles is probably a fairly cost effective way to go about it. And brakes are a pain. Some 7mm Irish kits are designed on the - quite reasonable - assumption that most people will build to 32mm, and the fold up brake gear designed accordingly ! 

Edited November 13, 2024 by Galteemore

[Mol_PMB]

I have done the deed with the buffers, and I think it looks satisfactory.

It's very hard to get buffers perfectly straight, but I take comfort from the fact that the factory-fitted ones aren't 100% perfect either!

I have enough of these buffers to convert another wagon, so I might do that tomorrow or Friday.

The buffers I've used are X6495 Hornby Sprung Tender Buffers for Class B1. They're not a perfect match to the CIE self-contained buffers but they're about right.

Photo of the real thing from Neil Smith, showing the larger type buffers and how near they are to the outer edge of the headstock:

 

[David Holman]

 Am sure someone can give a definitive measurement, but seem to remember 6 feet or even 6'3 is the buffer spacing.

 As for axles, I use 4mm scale wheels on my 7mm scale, 21mm narrow gauge models, where the standard axle is 2mm diameter. Hence it is a simple matter to fit new axles from 2mm brass wire. The pin point ends are easily made by twirling the axle against a slitting disc in a mini drill, while using brass means the axles aren't attracted to the permanent or electro magnets I use for uncoupling. Have found P4 axles aren't long enough.

 Speaking of P4, have found that 4mm finescale/EM standards work perfectly well for 21mm gauge, without going the extra step. 

 Another option, rarely mentioned, is "Irish EM". I only came across it when looking on Templot for a set of points drawings, but it uses a 20.2mm track gauge - a similar proportion for 18.2 v 18.83mm standard gauge. On one level, one could argue why bother, but thinking about it, it might just mean the back to back will be just that bit smaller to avoid wholesale rebuilding of rtr chassis. I use 19.2mm back to backs and have found that if it is out by as little as 0.2mm, it causes problems on point crossings or Vs. This is with the standard one millimetre flangeways used in finescale 00 and EM.

 The wagons look great in the right gauge, by the way, but (if it isn't already in your plans), a couple of points will be essential on your text track to check whatever clearances and standards you use. Love the overall approach too as it could well point the way to more folk trying broad gauge.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks, that’s really helpful and plenty for me to think about. I will need to have some pointwork, but not sure what approach to use at present. 

Buffer spacing is 6’3” for the CIE wagons, whereas GB standard gauge is 5’7.5”, a 7.5” difference, similar to the track gauge increase. 

[Brendan8056]

Welcome back to the world of Irish modelling.

I have posted various bits here about re-gauging to 21mm. Rather than repeat myself you can hopefully search for my posts. Also I would suggest subscribing to "New Irish Lines", if you have not already done this.  The latest releases from IRM and Murphy Models are 21mm friendly. As David Holman does, I also make my own axles using a drill and some files, very little skill is needed, if I can do it.

[derek]

Oh Jesus! Not buffer spacings again. I'm saying nothing anyway- got into trouble last time.

[Mol_PMB]

16 minutes ago, derek said:

Oh Jesus! Not buffer spacings again. I'm saying nothing anyway- got into trouble last time.

Oh dear, I don't want to rub salt in a wound or upset IRM! I was trying to show how to make them right rather than complaining about them being wrong.

I'm hoping that from the pack of 3 wagons I may be able to salvage 4 of the supplied buffers in adequate condition to re-fit to one of the wagons, with the other two having the new larger buffers. But that may be optimistic!

I've pre-ordered some H vans and they will be much more of a challenge as they didn't have their buffers replaced with the larger ones.

Anyway, the next task on the corrugated wagons is weathering, which is always fun. Bring on the filth!

Mol

 

[derek]

Just now, Mol_PMB said:

Oh dear, I don't want to rub salt in a wound or upset IRM! I was trying to show how to make them right rather than complaining about them being wrong.

I'm hoping that from the pack of 3 wagons I may be able to salvage 4 of the supplied buffers in adequate condition to re-fit to one of the wagons, with the other two having the new larger buffers. But that may be optimistic!

I've pre-ordered some H vans and they will be much more of a challenge as they didn't have their buffers replaced with the larger ones.

Anyway, the next task on the corrugated wagons is weathering, which is always fun. Bring on the filth!

Mol

 

You're fine @Mol_PMB, I was only having a laugh. When I said a couple months ago that there is more to worry about in the world than fractions of millimetres in buffer spacings, my post was removed. Still not sure why. At the time the lads were getting a bit flustered on the subject. Can I just say you are a total mine of information, well done

[murphaph]

They look fabulous with the Hornby buffers. Great work!

[Mol_PMB]

I made a start on the second corrugated wagon tonight, and experimented to see if I could remove the buffers without destroying them, so that I could re-use them but positioned at the correct spacing. After a few false starts I think I am getting somewhere with this.

This is the technique I used. First, use a tiny jewellers' screwdriver to push the buffer head out from the rear. If you have enough hands you can pull on the other end too. When it comes out, try not to lose the buffer head or the tiny spring.

Then insert a piece of 2mm diameter tube or rod into the front of the buffer guide. Wiggle it around gently, and hopefully the buffer guide will come loose from the headstock:

I then added some plastic strip to the outer edge of the moulded buffer base, and when that was stuck well I sanded down the faces. I marked the new holes (25mm centres) and drilled them.

However, there was quite a recess where the old buffer holes were, so I inserted some 1mm plastic rod with a dab of filler round it. I'm waiting for that to set before I sand it down flush.

The back of the buffers will need to be smoothed off too, before I glue them back on.

If I can make this work, then it should also work on the H vans and I might be tempted to order some more!

 

 

[TimO]

I’ll be very interested to follow how you progress with these modifications; seems like a case for a good jig to line up everything.

[Mol_PMB]

I was able to line up and refit the old buffers fairly well. I fitted the guides first and then put in the sprung heads. On one of them the sprung head tends to stick in when compressed, but the others are all fine. I'm reasonably happy with the result.

I'm considering changing the brake gear on this wagon, to the alternative 4-shoe type fitted to some of the corrugated wagons. But to do that I'll need some parts from the H van underframes which won't be here for a while. So for now it can keep the standard brakes.

 

I then tackled the third wagon, and managed to salvage all the old buffers and replace them with the larger Hornby ones, the same process I used on the first wagon except that I now have a stock of spare IRM buffers for future conversions.

Here are the three wagons together on the photo plank. Tomorrow when I have daylight again, I'll make a start on the weathering of these three wagons.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Excellent job on re-spacing the buffers, @Mol_PMB! @MAL will be most interested in these few posts, too.

Surprising how much of a difference the re-spacing makes to the overall impact. The IRM Bulleids are a really lovely wagon, and you've taken them to the level they deserve with that mod.

A Mol-Mod, I guess...

[murphaph]

A side by side before and after of the buffer mod would be great if you haven't done them all yet!

[ttc0169]

The 1:1 version…..at Maam cross station  

 

[DJ Dangerous]

22 minutes ago, murphaph said:

A side by side before and after of the buffer mod would be great if you haven't done them all yet!

 

Great idea, would love to see that.

Almost sure, but not completely sure, that @Garfield said a few months back that IRM Bulleid buffers may be available as spares in the future, as are Accurascale buffers.

The Accurascale buffers translate into Spanish as tampons, so hopefully the IRM ones don't get the same treatment!

 

7 minutes ago, ttc0169 said:

The 1:1 version…..at Maam cross station  

 

 

Now, could you move the buffers inwards a few inches and take some more pics, please???

[Mol_PMB]

28 minutes ago, murphaph said:

A side by side before and after of the buffer mod would be great if you haven't done them all yet!

 

3 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Great idea, would love to see that.

Almost sure, but not completely sure, that @Garfield said a few months back that IRM Bulleid buffers may be available as spares in the future, as are Accurascale buffers.

The Accurascale buffers translate into Spanish as tampons, so hopefully the IRM ones don't get the same treatment!

 

 

Now, could you move the buffers inwards a few inches and take some more pics, please???

 

I'm sorry, it's too late! I only bought 3 corrugated wagons, and I've now converted all of them. I didn't take a side-by-side photo, the best I can offer is this one from earlier in the thread:

However, if you can be patient, I have increased my H van order to 6 wagons, so I'll have plenty of them to show comparisons.

Having now trawled through the wagons in the IRRS archive, I now think there are a total of 6 buffer types used on the triangulated wagon underframes:

• Small buffers with two ribs each side (this is the type fitted by IRM)
• Small buffers with one rib each side
• Small buffers with two ribs each side, on spacer block (green vans only)
• Small buffers with one rib each side, on spacer block (green vans only)
• Large buffers (this is the type I'm approximating with the Hornby loco buffers)
• Very long large buffers with step on top

The one at Maam Cross has the second-largest type. (thanks for the pics BTW)

I think some wagons were built with the first, second and fifth types, the others were later modifications.

 

I plan to modify two of the H vans to former green vans with the buffer spacers, one van with the normal body type (in brown) and one of a Palvan type (in grey), as I have found evidence that some survived into those liveries.

 

It would be great if IRM could produce some spare bits!

 

 

At the moment I am working on weathering the three corrugated opens, but there's a lot more to do yet.

 

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Weathering continues. It's a slow process as I have to do one side at a time, and let it dry throroughly before applying the next layer. I'd say I'm about half way there with them. One is particularly heavily weathered, the other two are more moderate.

At the moment it's all too contrasty, but a dark wash and a light spray of dirt will blend it back together.

I bought a couple of EM gauge wagon wheelsets which have a finer profile than the OO ones. I think if I swap them into the corrugated wagons, I'll be able to get the 19.2mm BTB without the wheels rubbing on the W irons. Of course the EM axles are the wrong length...

I wonder whether IRM could be persuaded to sell replacement 21mm gauge wheelsets?

 

In other news, some wagon kits have arrived, and there will be much swapping of parts to achieve the desired results!

I have a Parkside PC08A, PC25 and PC65, a Cambrian C107, and C105, plus a selection of spare buffers and brake gear parts. I'm hoping these can be mixed up to produce a GNR ex-cement van, a CIE palvan, and two NIR ex-Courtaulds wagons.

More on them once the corrugated opens are finished.

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Weathering stages on the corrugated wagons continue and should be complete tomorrow. Now that I've got the various kits to play with I should have enough parts to complete the alternative brake gear on one of them - a job for tomorrow.

In the meantime I have started a project that may be familiar to many: an ex-GNR cement van. I've convinced myself by lots of scaling off photos that the van body of the GNR van is the same size as the BR vans - rather than the slightly shorter and wider Irish standard. That makes things easier! I'm using the Parkside PC08A kit as a basis, but I've swapped the solebars from a Parkside PC25 as they have the right sort of axlebox (but the wrong brakes). I needed to add extra V hangers anyway so that was no great problem, and the PC08A solebars have an alternative destiny...

I've cut and sanded off the buffers and re-drilled at Irish spacing. I have some spare RCH buffers I can rob from a Cambrian chassis kit.  The holes for the vents have been filled with a slice of plasticard and some filler which I'll deal with tomorrow once it's set hard. In the meantime I've added a load of little etched details to the sides, to replace the moulded bits that weren't quite right. These came from the Mainly Trains 'wagon detailing components' etch, the Cambrian etched tiebars, and the 51L 'Brake levers, V's and guides' etch BLGVB. I'll be using more parts off these later...

Photo of a prototype from Jeremy Chapter on Flickr:

I am considering getting some rivet transfers from Railtec to add the rivets/bolts around the edge of the doors.

Many of these vans seem to have acquired strips across the roof, as in the photo above, but they weren't built with them and some survived to the end without. I'm quite tempted to model the one shown in Neil Smith's photo here, dated 1981. In this pair it's the H van that has the strips on the roof, not the GN van!

The wheels supplied with this kit have a finer profile than the ones in the IRM corrugated wagon - the tyre width is 2.2mm rather than 2.8mm. This should mean there's no difficulty in setting them to 21mm gauge, except that I'll need to lengthen the axle. In fact the wheel profile matches that on the EM gauge wheelsets I bought. So I think I'll end up using some wheels of this type to replace the IRM ones in the corrugated wagons.

Not the best photo but this shows the finer profile of the wheels in the Parkside kit compared to those in the IRM corrugated wagon:

Anyway, more tomorrow.

[Mol_PMB]

I've been working on adding the different brakes to one of the corrugated wagons. Some of the triangulated underframe wagons had a 4-shoe brake with the brakes mounted outboard of the wheels. I do like little variations in my fleet.

Here are some images showing the arrangement; these are in the public domain from Ernie on Flickr, but there are clearer shots on the IRRS archive.

I added the brake shoes from spare bits in a Parkside kit, having previously drilled them carefully with a 0.5mm drill bit.

Then I soldered up the cross-beams from brass wire and strip:

These were then fitted into the small holes in the brake shoes:

Which looks like this when it's the right way up:

It's a bit simplified, but once painted and weathered I'm sure it will look fine.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[Mol_PMB]

Weathering is now just about complete, though I'll take a second look when this has fully dried.

One's very tatty, the other two aren't so bad.

I will replace the wheelsets (and weather the new ones), but I'm waiting on some parts.

I've weathered the interiors so I don't need to load them, but in due course I probably will make some loads.

[Mol_PMB]

Tonight's challenge is adding extra rivets to the ex-GN van using Railtec rivet transfers.

In the past I've used Archer rivet transfers, this was my first attempt with the Railtec ones. They are equally fiddly, but can produce a good result when applied with care.

Photo from Ernie showing the rivetted strips around the doors and along the bottom of the body, that I'm representing:

 

[Mol_PMB]

The van is now in the weathering stages, looks a bit piebald at present but be patient...

Meanwhile, I have taken a step across the border for the next project. Here I am conducting some surgery - can you tell what it is yet?

I am attempting the same conversion on two different kits of almost the same thing; the kits are Parkside PC25 and Cambrian C107.

They both have their pros and cons - so far I think the Cambrian kit is a better representation of their intended prototype, but the Parkside kit is definitely easier to convert.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Progress continues on the Courtaulds wagons and the GNR van, but in the meantime a brief burst of winter sunshine encouraged me to take the photo plank and the corrugated wagons out into the sunshine.

I think I should have taken the tripod as well, so I could use a longer exposure and smaller aperture, as F10 wasn't enough for the depth of field I wanted. But the sun's gone again now so I'm stuck with these!

[Mol_PMB]

This weekend's efforts have had a distinctly Great Northern theme. Neither are quite finished yet...

The brake van will be completed in 1970s NIR condition, about as tatty as the cement van.

[Mol_PMB]

I must confess that modelling progress has been slow recently, partly because of a minor arm injury (that has now healed) which made me ham-fisted and painful to do anything. There was also the much more pleasant distraction of a week abroad photographing trains.

Anyway, for those reasons, and because I've incorporated various modifications to the model to suit my prototype, completion of the GNR brake van has dragged on a bit, but I think I'm finally there with the build and it's had a coat of etch primer. 

The next stage is to try and reproduce the awful paint job that NIR put on it, with the rust showing through the thin grey paint.

This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, and a few others of his, have been the basis of my modifications:

My intention is that this will form part of a short works train for my IRM maroon Hunslet, when it arrives. A couple of kit-bashed Courtaulds wagons and three of @leslie10646's spoil wagons (converted to ballast hoppers) are also part of that plan.

 

When I last modelled Irish in 4mm scale about 30 years ago, I attempted to build this kit, and made a right hash of it because I just didn't have the skills, experience or quality tools to make a good job of it. Starting again 30 years later it's still quite a challenging kit but I think it's worth the effort. Hopefully I've done it and @Weshty justice.

 

While I've got the soldering iron out, I've made a start on another etched kit, this time from @Mayner. This is one of three, and will become 25436 series container flats. I'll try to make them all a bit different, for example one will have plain bearings and the other two will have roller bearings. So far it's going together well:

[Mol_PMB]

A  little more progress with the container train. I decided to have a go at one of @leslie10646's container flats, which represent the 27101 series 20' flats.

I wasn't sure how easy it would be to build this for 21mm gauge, but it wasn't too hard. I mostly used a piercing saw with a coarse blade to remove material from the floor and the back of the W-iron:

I then tidied up with a file. The tip of the pin-point bearing hole was still visible to provide a witness mark for re-drilling the hole deeper. For now I've just deepened the hole in the resin, but I might possible drill out deeper and put in a brass bearing.

After that, the rest of the model went together fairly easily. A few minor tweaks needed to get the brake gear to line up with the broad gauge wheels, but nothing major. I still need to add buffer heads and a paint job, hopefully later in the week.

In the meantime, I have the beginnings of a container train, which will hopefully grow with a couple more 4-wheelers at least. I haven't yet found any of the IRM 42' bogie wagons available for sale.

The C=Rail containers are very nice, but I may give them a bit of light weathering in due course.

Merry Christmas all...

Mol

[leslie10646]

Well done, Paul.

If Airdrop worked from my useless iPhone 13 to my (probably more useless) Mac Air (2015), I'd show you Enda's Uniload containers on this wagon - a perfect fit!

WHOOOPPPEEE!!! It's worked.

Edited December 24, 2024 by leslie10646

[Mol_PMB]

Progress on several fronts over the last couple of days, as well as writing my diatribe on early containers.

The container flat from Leslie is now in red primer and looking the part. Still needs a topcoat, lettering and weathering, but I'll wait until I've done the other one. The Bell container on it now has a petunia purple roof which is a much better colour match than it looks in this photo. I know the roofs could be purple, blue or white, but I wanted a purple one.

Then I've been working on a couple of Mayner's 3D prints as well. These are very nicely done, much better than many I've worked with in the past, but they still benefit from a bit of cleaning up and detailing.

The LMA van was easy, and has got as far as the transfers. This needs some careful weathering to reproduce the prototype.

The GSR grain hopper took a little more work to remove all traces of the 3D print layers, but I'm hoping that the next spray of paint will prove I'm there, and then that can have some transfers too. I also need to solder up a ladder for it, and use transfers to reinstate the lost rows of rivets on the edge of the roof.

The GNR brake van was painted in 'rust and unpainted wood' finish, and then a thinned coat of pale grey was sprayed over the top. Now I'm using various tools to remove a lot of that top coat, and expose the rust and wood underneath. There's a way to go yet but this corner is looking suitably bedraggled.

In due course I need to do some transfer artwork for this and a few other wagons.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Well, I have made a ladder. I suppose I could have ordered an etched one but it wouldn't turn up for a week or more. I think it's an improvement? Just trial-fitted at this stage, I should be able to straighten it a fraction on final fit.

It looks like the body still needs a bit more fettling too, but it's nearly there.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707

I'm still hoping I can pick up a couple of the IRM grain vans to go with it, but we'll see.

[Mol_PMB]

I've got to the stage where a number of wagon projects are nearly finished, waiting on some custom transfer artwork that I need to complete and get printed. Then I'm going to do a big batch of weathering and will suddenly have a train of a dozen wagons which will be far too long for my photo plank! And that's before the IRM H vans arrive. I think I need a new display cabinet!

My childhood memories of Irish railways are in the mid-1980s, pre-tippex. But I find the 1970s period a little more interesting and varied to model, with the transition from traditional freight trains to fully-fitted liners. For the older goods stock, I'm aiming for a roughly 50/50 mix of grey and brown livery wagons, with the idea that I can represent slightly different eras in the 1970s by adjusting the proportion of grey and brown wagons in the train.

My memories of CIE brake vans are all of 30t vans in brown livery (and I have a suspicion/hope that IRM may have one of those up their sleeve), but I wanted a grey brake van as well, and the JM Design 20 ton brake van kit was perfect for my needs.

A lovely model even straight out of the box, with some extra details added by myself: handrails, lamp irons, metal buffer heads and coupling hooks, extra reinforcing strips at the base of the sides, and some more details around the stove both inside and out. This model is now physically complete and lettered, but not yet weathered. I also need to add glazing. The livery is slightly unusual but prototypical for this van. The wasp-stripe transfer for the ducket wasn't quite big enough for the way my prototype was painted, so I had to carefully paint the yellow and black to extend the stripes both up and down. Hopefully the imperfections will be disguised by the weathering!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511648559

Not far behind the brake van in the build process is a Provincial CIE cattle wagon. Watch this space...

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

As mentioned, the cattle wagon is progressing well too. The parts are very nicely cast and went together well, with a little care to make sure everything was square.

I used a modified Parkside PA06 chassis instead of that provided in the kit - it was easy to regauge to 21mm and had clasp brakes, so I've built a vac-fitted cattle wagon.

It is currently finished in clean ex-works brown livery, but yet to be lettered, and it will have some light weathering.

There are a few more details still to add, including door bangers (ready to go on) and brake handwheels (to be stolen from an IRM H van later this month)

As yet I haven't glued the roof on, hopefully it will seat down a little better when glued. I don't intend to load it.

 

With these vans, the GSR grain hopper, 3 corrugated opens, and some H vans on the way, I have the potential for a 15-wagon 1970s CIE freight train. I need to think about somewhere to run it (and also make a decision on couplings, which I've been putting off!)

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'd originally thought of a smallish shunting layout because it would be easily portable and fit in various possible spaces, but I already have an O gauge 'inglenook' style layout and to be honest it gets very little use (although it looks quite pretty).

So now I'm thinking that for the Irish option I'd perhaps rather watch trains passing through the scenery. I do enjoy scenic modelling. This is perhaps also influenced by the reliability of a 21mm gauge shunting layout and the choice of couplings in 4mm scale that enable effective shunting.

I am mulling over ideas for a built-in layout in the loft space. This would require some work on the loft first, which has been part of the general plan for the house for a while. Perhaps a layout plan would spur me on to fitting out the loft?

The sketch below shows the plan view of the loft-space and an end elevation. The basic space is 3.6m (12') wide and 3.75m (12'6") long, extending a further 0.25m between the chimneys. This alcove would favour a traverser-style fiddle yard which could be 1.8m (6') long. It looks like it's quite feasible to have a circuit 3.3m (11') across in each direction, with 1m radius curves. Obviously it could be more complex and with a more natural trackplan, but it gives an idea of what's feasible:

The space is too small for a worthwhile 7mm scale layout (which is my main scale for non-Irish stuff), which is probably why it has remained unused. However, I think it looks quite reasonable for 4mm scale.

The fiddle yard length would allow realistic length Irish passenger trains of 5 coaches (Cravens/Park Royal etc); alternatively freights of 8 bogies or nearly 20 traditional 4-wheelers. Potentially up to 8 tracks on the traverser would give scope for a couple of passenger trains and a good mix of freights.

I think I could fit in a station with passing loop and simple goods facilities on any of the 3 sides not occupied by the fiddle yard, although the ends of the station would have to bend round the curves. The remainder of the layout could just be single track through scenery, allowing a view of the whole train.

 

Having spent a lot of my childhood visits to Ireland in and around Ennis, I'm wondering if a representation of that station and yard (in early 1980s state) could be squeezed in. Station on the left side of the plan, north end road bridge at the top, the south end throat would have to curve round in the bottom left corner. I think it would need only 5 or 6 points. Scenery-wise, Clare Abbey bottom right and the Fergus bridge middle right? Some trains would run through, others would stop and shunt before continuing in the same direction, while some would come from Limerick direction, terminate at Ennis and later return to the fiddle yard.

 

Of course there are a load of practical issues to deal with including fitting out the loft and the temperature fluctuations.