IRM Latest! H Van Heaven - Unfitted H Vans Next For Accurascale IRM!

[mphoey]

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, mphoey said:

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

Recently I had suggestion from within Accurascale that it would be a good time to do a small repeat run of my 20T Brake Van.

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, mphoey said:

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

Did you have to pay a 50% deposit up front on your H van order? I had to. 

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Recently I had suggestion from within Accurascale that it would be a good time to do a small repeat run of my 20T Brake Van.

Worth a reminder to perhaps our younger colleagues here, used to seeing modern goods trains which comprise a dozen identical vehicles and nothing else.

Apart from the fact that a traditional goods train of four-wheeled loose-coupled vehicles could have 34 wagons  of 32 different types, it’s worth pointing out that ALL of them had a brake van.

Running a train of older wagons either no brake van on the end is as ridiculously inaccurate as Stephenson’s Rocket hauling an ICR, or a Tara Mines train happily running round the layout with no locomotive.

Thankfully, we’ve had JM Design and Provincial Wagons to bridge this absolutely ESSENTIAL gap.

Apart from the fact that it does us all a common good to support these small manufacturers, we actually need these things for any credibility on any layout.

(Mind you, “Rule 1” applies if you prefer a train of British Rail Mk 1s hauled by a Javanese 3’6” gauge B50 class 2.4.0 in NIR silver and blue; a Japanese bullet train hauled by a Listowel monorail engine, a Sligo Leitrim 0.6.4T double-heading a Darjeeling “B” on the Enterprise, or WORSE, a train of CIE “H” vans and Bullieds with no guard’s van….)

 

 

 

 

[Mayner]

42 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Worth a reminder to perhaps our younger colleagues here, used to seeing modern goods trains which comprise a dozen identical vehicles and nothing else.

Apart from the fact that a traditional goods train of four-wheeled loose-coupled vehicles could have 34 wagons  of 32 different types, it’s worth pointing out that ALL of them had a brake van.

Running a train of older wagons either no brake van on the end is as ridiculously inaccurate as Stephenson’s Rocket hauling an ICR, or a Tara Mines train happily running round the layout with no locomotive.

Thankfully, we’ve had JM Design and Provincial Wagons to bridge this absolutely ESSENTIAL gap.

Apart from the fact that it does us all a common good to support these small manufacturers, we actually need these things for any credibility on any layout.

The challenge for a rtr or kit manufacturer is to sell enough of a particular model to make it worthwhile in a competitive price.  Thus IRMs focus on selling multi packs of almost identical wagons and earlier focus on 'modern' block train wagons like the Ballast & Cement wagons where the average customer might buy 10 or 20 rather than an individual wagon.

While JHB pointed out that the average traditional goods train could have 34 wagons, well 50-5 max on the Cork line or Midland, it was likely to have only one goods brake or possibly a second if the train reversed or divided in route. So potentially a retailer selling 1 Brake for every 10 H Vans or Opens sold, so in the Irish outline market a Brake Van would struggle to reach 2500-3000 to break even let alone a profit.

Personally I suspect a lot of buyers of RTR models(and kits for that matter) are collectors who have no real interest in running models let alone prototypical accuracy, after-all how else can you explain a person buying 12 different versions of the same locomotive, or the surge of sales on e-bay soon after a model goes on the market or sells out.

Interestingly many years ago when I had a large American outline N gauge, visiting operators quickly got bored with prototypical operation and loved to literally race trains around the layout at the end of a formal operating session, the challenge was to keep two trains (15-20 car freights) running as fast as possible continuously run layout with mixture of fairly long (15-20') single and double track sections (without stopping)

I am as guilty as anyone else I have a large collection of N and 4mm models in display cases around the house and boxes of IRM and MM models that I have never run and at this stage getting less likely to run.

 

[Mol_PMB]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

Recently I had suggestion from within Accurascale that it would be a good time to do a small repeat run of my 20T Brake Van.

As and when you have your more important challenges under control again, I agree. I'd buy another one or two brake van kits and I'm sure other people newly attracted to Irish modelling would be interested too. They are excellent models.

I wonder whether the same logic would apply to the tin vans, expecially once we have the Park Royals?

[mfjoc]

 

Speaking to Fran yesterday in Wexford he did hint that both a break van and a mk1 GSV were in the pipeline but neither were imminent.

[Mayner]

15 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

If the numbers on the decorated samples are correct, the selection of 17194 as one of the brown livery vans is puzzling, as it was one of the predecessors to the H vans: a batch of 200 built from 1946 on conventional (non-triangulated) chassis, with much longer brake levers and lacking the grid of bolts on the bodysides. Otherwise these earlier vans look nearly identical to the H vans. I only spotted it because I had already made plans to model this particular vehicle myself by putting a slightly-modified IRM H van body on a modified Parkside chassis. 

Although similar in appearance to the Bulleid H Vans the 200 1946 vans were quite different in construction basically an updated 10' wb version of the GSWR vans introduced in 1917 with the timber planking obscured with sheet aluminim cladding. CIE re-skinned some older vans with sheet aluminium cladding including the 1917 'standard' design, some of the older longer GSWR "Big Boy" vans & even some ex-GNR.

There is a photo of one of these vans under construction in the Inchacore 150 Book "The Works". Aluminium over planking may have been a post WW11 econmy measure, plentifull supply of aluminium (intended for aircraft production) combined with a scarcity of quality hardwood available for wagon building. GNR coaches built during the same era tended to have hardboard or "Masonite" body cladding on softwood framing which later lead to decay and scrappping.

Comparison of an IRM 'Fitted" Van and one of my 1946 Vans. Mine based on a Herbert Richards drawing of a 1946 van appears larger by the IRM model the 1917 GSWR vans appear taller than the Bulleid Vans in photo of the prototype. 

I guess its time to think about 'retiring' my collection of 21mm gauge H Vans modified from the Parkside Van kit about 30 years ago & some GSWR Vans modified from Coopercraft GWR Van kits around the same era.

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Although similar in appearance to the Bulleid H Vans the 200 1946 vans were quite different in construction basically an updated 10' wb version of the GSWR vans introduced in 1917 with the timber planking obscured with sheet aluminim cladding. CIE re-skinned some older vans with sheet aluminium cladding including the 1917 'standard' design, some of the older longer GSWR "Big Boy" vans & even some ex-GNR.

There is a photo of one of these vans under construction in the Inchacore 150 Book "The Works". Aluminium over planking may have been a post WW11 econmy measure, plentifull supply of aluminium (intended for aircraft production) combined with a scarcity of quality hardwood available for wagon building. GNR coaches built during the same era tended to have hardboard or "Masonite" body cladding on softwood framing which later lead to decay and scrappping.

Comparison of an IRM 'Fitted" Van and one of my 1946 Vans. Mine based on a Herbert Richards drawing of a 1946 van appears larger by the IRM model the 1917 GSWR vans appear taller than the Bulleid Vans in photo of the prototype. 

I guess its time to think about 'retiring' my collection of 21mm gauge H Vans modified from the Parkside Van kit about 30 years ago & some GSWR Vans modified from Coopercraft GWR Van kits around the same era.

Many thanks John, that's interesting info. As you say, the 'Big Boy' vans were certainly longer and taller than the H vans, but looking at photos the 1946 batch seem to have had dimensions closer to the H vans. 

I think some of the difference in your model comparison is caused by the difference in floor height of the models. This photo by Ernie on Flickr shows 1946 van 17194 next to H van 18872:

Other comparison photos of the two types, in the IRRS Flickr archive and from Ernie:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511423619

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53448460062

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/27895402005

And a couple more photos of the 1946 batch, from Ernie and Jonathan Allen:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/53974928869

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52050027329

 

Some 'Big Boy' info in this thread:

 

[flange lubricator]

We are very lucky to have an abundance of riches at the moment I was lucky to pick up a few of the JM Designs covered vans and 20T Guards Vans and would buy another one or two brakes if they become available again . With the addition of the fitted and unfitted standard H Van I would imagine both the 20T & 30T CIE brake vans would see an upsurge in demand if made available again . 

[DJ Dangerous]

8 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

We are very lucky to have an abundance of riches at the moment I was lucky to pick up a few of the JM Designs covered vans and 20T Guards Vans and would buy another one or two brakes if they become available again . With the addition of the fitted and unfitted standard H Van I would imagine both the 20T & 30T CIE brake vans would see an upsurge in demand if made available again . 

Likewise, picked up a few of John’s RTR brake vans / guard’s vans a few years ago, in anticipation of having stock to run with them.

Fabulous vans, and with more loose-coupled stock on layouts lately, I can see them being in demand.

[DJ Dangerous]

Have spammed the forum with this video of John’s wagons before, but it’s relevant again here.

 

 

[west_clare_wanderer]

On 5/5/2025 at 12:07 AM, jhb171achill said:

Worth a reminder to perhaps our younger colleagues here, used to seeing modern goods trains which comprise a dozen identical vehicles and nothing else.

Apart from the fact that a traditional goods train of four-wheeled loose-coupled vehicles could have 34 wagons  of 32 different types, it’s worth pointing out that ALL of them had a brake van.

 

Thanks, that's really helpful. I always feel ignorant asking such basic questions... 

So, are a mix of fitted and unfitted, both grey and brown wagons, with a CIE roundal logo, suitable for a 1970s 'Supertrain' period layout? As long as there is a brake van! 

[Mol_PMB]

24 minutes ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

 

Thanks, that's really helpful. I always feel ignorant asking such basic questions... 

So, are a mix of fitted and unfitted, both grey and brown wagons, with a CIE roundal logo, suitable for a 1970s 'Supertrain' period layout? As long as there is a brake van! 

Yes, that’s the right mix for the mid 1970s. 

At the start of the 1970s grey would predominate and some wagons would still have flying snails, while by the end of the 1970s the traditional unfitted goods trains had ceased, apart from seasonal beet traffic and occasional engineers’ trains. 

If you have a mix of fitted and unfitted wagons, you might think that the fitted ones should be next to the loco so their vacuum brakes could be used, but in Irish practice they could be anywhere in the train, with the vac brakes usually not connected. Most traditional freight trains were marshalled to make shunting easier, rather than to maximise brake power. 
 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

 

Thanks, that's really helpful. I always feel ignorant asking such basic questions... 

So, are a mix of fitted and unfitted, both grey and brown wagons, with a CIE roundal logo, suitable for a 1970s 'Supertrain' period layout? As long as there is a brake van! 

Yes, exactly. A VERY occasional snail logo too; I saw just ONE in the 1970-6 period (at Ballina).

In 1970/1, a very occasional brown one but obviously these increased in proportion. By 1976, two thirds were brown, but at the very end of loose-coupled goods, a good 20% were still grey.

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, that’s the right mix for the mid 1970s. 

At the start of the 1970s grey would predominate and some wagons would still have flying snails, while by the end of the 1970s the traditional unfitted goods trains had ceased, apart from seasonal beet traffic and occasional engineers’ trains. 

If you have a mix of fitted and unfitted wagons, you might think that the fitted ones should be next to the loco so their vacuum brakes could be used, but in Irish practice they could be anywhere in the train, with the vac brakes usually not connected. Most traditional freight trains were marshalled to make shunting easier, rather than to maximise brake power. 
 

In their final years of operation fitted H Vans may have had their vacuum brakes isolated. I member checking out Mullingar scrap yard in 1982 all the fitted H Vans seen had  lettering to the effect that the vacuum brake was isolated. The vacuum brakes appear to have been isolated as the H Vans went through the Works as the lettering was neatly applied in a uniform style possibly with a stencil, which indicates that the brakes on the H Vans may have been isolated during the mid-1970s while still in use in regular traffic, so fitted and unfitted vans could be marshalled randomly in a train up to the end of loose coupled wagons in regular service.

H vans ceased to be used for bagged cement traffic following the introduction of the Pallet Cement wagons circa 1976, sundries and general goods traffic up to the changeover of the Dublin-Tralee goods service to Liner Operation in 1978. North Wall-Sligo and North Wall-Wexford were the first goods to go over to Liner operation possibly 76-77, followed by Galway and Westport, Waterford and Limerick, finally Cork and Tralee. Cross Border transfer freights continued in loose coupled operation, but using modern equipment into the 80s. 

Possibly the last long distance use of H Van's in revenue service was a Dundalk-Kilkenny empty keg special in the late 70s the vans were stored/dumped a Waterford North Wharf afterwards.

Long lines of stored H Vans often in reasonable condition was a common feature at several stations in the mid-late 70s(Templemore & Roscrea come to mind) waiting their final trip to Mullingar.

[west_clare_wanderer]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, that’s the right mix for the mid 1970s. 

At the start of the 1970s grey would predominate and some wagons would still have flying snails, while by the end of the 1970s the traditional unfitted goods trains had ceased, apart from seasonal beet traffic and occasional engineers’ trains. 

If you have a mix of fitted and unfitted wagons, you might think that the fitted ones should be next to the loco so their vacuum brakes could be used, but in Irish practice they could be anywhere in the train, with the vac brakes usually not connected. Most traditional freight trains were marshalled to make shunting easier, rather than to maximise brake power. 
 

Thank you ever so much, that's really hhelpful. My mid 1970s period can support a nice mix of grey and brown wagons then. 

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, exactly. A VERY occasional snail logo too; I saw just ONE in the 1970-6 period (at Ballina).

In 1970/1, a very occasional brown one but obviously these increased in proportion. By 1976, two thirds were brown, but at the very end of loose-coupled goods, a good 20% were still grey.

Again, thank you. I really appreciate the input. 

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

In their final years of operation fitted H Vans may have had their vacuum brakes isolated. I member checking out Mullingar scrap yard in 1982 all the fitted H Vans seen had  lettering to the effect that the vacuum brake was isolated. The vacuum brakes appear to have been isolated as the H Vans went through the Works as the lettering was neatly applied in a uniform style possibly with a stencil, which indicates that the brakes on the H Vans may have been isolated during the mid-1970s while still in use in regular traffic, so fitted and unfitted vans could be marshalled randomly in a train up to the end of loose coupled wagons in regular service.

H vans ceased to be used for bagged cement traffic following the introduction of the Pallet Cement wagons circa 1976, sundries and general goods traffic up to the changeover of the Dublin-Tralee goods service to Liner Operation in 1978. North Wall-Sligo and North Wall-Wexford were the first goods to go over to Liner operation possibly 76-77, followed by Galway and Westport, Waterford and Limerick, finally Cork and Tralee. Cross Border transfer freights continued in loose coupled operation, but using modern equipment into the 80s. 

Possibly the last long distance use of H Van's in revenue service was a Dundalk-Kilkenny empty keg special in the late 70s the vans were stored/dumped a Waterford North Wharf afterwards.

Long lines of stored H Vans often in reasonable condition was a common feature at several stations in the mid-late 70s(Templemore & Roscrea come to mind) waiting their final trip to Mullingar.

That's fascinating. Just like above, I'm really grateful for your help. I've just returned to the hobby, and am very keen to learn, but want to start off on the right foot and get a prototypical mix of wagons for my little layout. 

 

[Wexford70]

On 4/5/2025 at 9:57 PM, mphoey said:

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

Would love a brake van in different liveries with working lamp(s) and, who knows, even smoke from the pot belly boiler???

[enniscorthyman]

On 4/5/2025 at 9:57 PM, mphoey said:

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

I know Enda is working on his own 3d Brake vans at the moment, Should have a sample in a few weeks.

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Wexford70 said:

Would love a brake van in different liveries with working lamp(s) and, who knows, even smoke from the pot belly boiler???

I ended up producing 4 different variants of the RTR 20T Brake Van in different liveries, the interior included a potbelly stove and hand brake wheel, but barely visible unless you removed the roof. 

Initial plans in 2020 was to commission a plastic injection molded model direct from China, but went down the 3D printed path as I wasn't convinced that I would sell 2-3000 required to break even. In the end sold approx. 100 over 3 years.

May re-visit the Brake Van later this year, if time become available.

SSM produce a straightforward kit for the 30T van, no soldering necessary basically fold up etched brass assembly of a Dapol Chassis.