The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[Wexford70]

6 hours ago, Niles said:

Gorey to Courtown anyone?

What year was this published? Was it in the national papers?

[Niles]

3 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

What year was this published? Was it in the national papers?

I'll have to dig back exactly where I came across it but one of the local papers in the 1860s I think. 

 

[David Holman]

Mentioned the other day that the Swilly is an itch I repeatedly have to scratch and following the Cultra show found myself musing on a might have been that I've already made use of. The place is Rathmelton. A few miles north of Letterkenny, if you Google it, you find not only an interesting industrial waterfront, but also some splendid Victorian/Georgian [?] terraces that would make a rather fine setting for a model railway. The warehouse on Northport Quay is based on one of those in Rathmelton.

 Quite why the Swilly, or indeed the Donegal never made it there, I have no idea, but I could envisage that a joint line might have been possible, with the Swilly being responsible for traffic to Derry and the Donegal to, well Donegal.

 Personally, I wouldn't have the space for the long trains that both companies ran, let alone 4-8-0s or 4-8-4Ts - and the big Donegal 2-6-4Ts weren't much smaller. However, shorter trains were run, so the Swilly 4-6-0Ts and 4-6-2Ts with two or three six wheel or bogie carriages or a few vans and a bogie brake would make for a nice set up. Not much in the way of variety though, which is why a joint line is appealing because a couple of Donegal railcars [either coupled together, or towing trailers and vans], along with mixed or freight traffic would be very appealing.

 I can envisage a stretched version of Fintonagh [on a Northport Quay sized footprint], with a quayside as the front edge of the baseboards and the warehouses/houses behind, or a larger, Belmullet sized project allowing for longer trains and more scenery.

 Drawing a couple of track plans has helped scratch the itch for now and realistically such a project aint going to happen anytime soon with Northport Quay needing to be ready for its show debut in less than a year. Also, a project like Rathmelton would probably take at least two or three years, given the amount of stock required - all of which would need to be scratch built - so the plans have gone into the folder for now. However, if someone were to bring out a couple or three 7mm scale kits, then who knows?!

 

[jhb171achill]

While the LLSR was more a case of long lines with long trains, who's to say it might not have had a shorter line? Derry out to Moville (though this could have had busy passenger traffic) or somewhere further north. Bearing in mind that lines like the Carn and Burtonport extensions were built with government grants, and in a million places throughout the west funds were often sought for some very short lines (or long sidings) such as, for example, Gubbardletter or Inishlyre off the Achill branch, a loud and persistent local community with an idea how their village coulde become a major port - however utterly deluded and unrealistic their notions might be - could well have attracted such support.

Add two six-wheelers or a scruffy bogie brake 3rd, one of those beautiful Lough Swilly 4.6.0Ts and a few wagons, and there ye go!

[Old Blarney]

Dear Mr Holman,

Please see attached. This is a Quay building in Rathmelton. It has a plaque - L&LSRWayCo -  1864.  I have viewed it whilst visiting relations, resident in the area. So, you have the building. Just need to get tracking, eh!

Thank you for your interesting posts, excellent modelling.  Image from Google Maps.

White. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Old Blarney

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Old Blarney said:

Dear Mr Holman,

Please see attached. This is a Quay building in Rathmelton. It has a plaque - L&LSRWayCo -  1864.  I have viewed it whilst visiting relations, resident in the area. So, you have the building. Just need to get tracking, eh!

Thank you for your interesting posts, excellent modelling.  Image from Google Maps.

White. 

Wow!! Never knew they had a depot there, OldBlarney! Most interesting, thanks for posting that.

Airfixfan - do you know of this?

[J-Mo Arts]

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

Mentioned the other day that the Swilly is an itch I repeatedly have to scratch and following the Cultra show found myself musing on a might have been that I've already made use of. The place is Rathmelton. A few miles north of Letterkenny, if you Google it, you find not only an interesting industrial waterfront, but also some splendid Victorian/Georgian [?] terraces that would make a rather fine setting for a model railway. The warehouse on Northport Quay is based on one of those in Rathmelton.

 Quite why the Swilly, or indeed the Donegal never made it there, I have no idea, but I could envisage that a joint line might have been possible, with the Swilly being responsible for traffic to Derry and the Donegal to, well Donegal.

 Personally, I wouldn't have the space for the long trains that both companies ran, let alone 4-8-0s or 4-8-4Ts - and the big Donegal 2-6-4Ts weren't much smaller. However, shorter trains were run, so the Swilly 4-6-0Ts and 4-6-2Ts with two or three six wheel or bogie carriages or a few vans and a bogie brake would make for a nice set up. Not much in the way of variety though, which is why a joint line is appealing because a couple of Donegal railcars [either coupled together, or towing trailers and vans], along with mixed or freight traffic would be very appealing.

 I can envisage a stretched version of Fintonagh [on a Northport Quay sized footprint], with a quayside as the front edge of the baseboards and the warehouses/houses behind, or a larger, Belmullet sized project allowing for longer trains and more scenery.

 Drawing a couple of track plans has helped scratch the itch for now and realistically such a project aint going to happen anytime soon with Northport Quay needing to be ready for its show debut in less than a year. Also, a project like Rathmelton would probably take at least two or three years, given the amount of stock required - all of which would need to be scratch built - so the plans have gone into the folder for now. However, if someone were to bring out a couple or three 7mm scale kits, then who knows?!

 

We have a saying, David:

 

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Dear Mr Holman,

Please see attached. This is a Quay building in Rathmelton. It has a plaque - L&LSRWayCo -  1864.  I have viewed it whilst visiting relations, resident in the area. So, you have the building. Just need to get tracking, eh!

Thank you for your interesting posts, excellent modelling.  Image from Google Maps.

White. 

Its looks like the LLSR Rathmelton depot opened after the line was extended from Tooban to Buncrana in 1864 and Fahan Point became the railhead/port for the villages on the west side of the lough. 

Like the Cork Blackrock and Passage the LLSR operated an extensive ferry/shipping service preferring to serve the west side of the Lough by sea rather than going to the expense of building railway lines.

[David Holman]

Plus of course their buses reached out long after the railway closed.

By the by, another reason I can't do a project like this at the moment is there is no space in the workshop, with Belmullet occupying the lower level and Fintonagh and Northport Quay the space above. Could have a go at a loco, of course, but ahead of it on my 'to do' list is the travelling crane for NPQ, the Castlederg 2-6-2T for Fintonagh, plus (as the muse takes me) Sprite and the Pay Train and/or a GSWR 4-4-0, all of which already have somewhere to run.

 One day maybe....

[Galteemore]

I think Northport Quay would also benefit from an SLNCR 0-6-2T…..

Edited November 21, 2022 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Wow!! Never knew they had a depot there, OldBlarney! Most interesting, thanks for posting that.

Airfixfan - do you know of this?

Yes  it was used for the Swilly shipping services. There are also detailed plans now in the Tower Museum Derry for a projected line from Derry to Moville.

[Horsetan]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

....for example, Gubbardletter or Inishlyre off the Achill branch, a loud and persistent local community with an idea how their village coulde become a major port - however utterly deluded and unrealistic their notions might be - ....

They weren’t the only ones, especially if they sensed they could get someone else to pay for it.

[David Holman]

On 20/11/2022 at 10:35 PM, Old Blarney said:

Dear Mr Holman,

Please see attached. This is a Quay building in Rathmelton. It has a plaque - L&LSRWayCo -  1864.  I have viewed it whilst visiting relations, resident in the area. So, you have the building. Just need to get tracking, eh!

Thank you for your interesting posts, excellent modelling.  Image from Google Maps.

White. 

Scratching the Itch!

 For Christmas, my wife gave me two new books and a calendar, which I tactfully pointed out might be nice, when we were looking at the Donegal stand at Cultra. Reading these has been a delight, especially as there is never much on TV over Christmas, and this got me thinking that a Swilly/Donegal project might not be so difficult after all.

 Looking through my other books on the railway, was interested to see that there had been an alternative route proposed to Burtonport, one that would have gone via various small harbours, rather than across the central wastelands. On the map below, this would have gone via Rathmelton [on the first inlet north of Letterkenny, then Millford [on the next inlet], before eventually turning west towards Creeslough.

 Now, much as I like the big 4-8-0 and 4-8-4T locos, they are too impractical for the space I have, but the 4-6-0T and pacific tanks are, to me, just as attractive, while there of photos of them on short trains of just three 6 wheel coaches, or three vans and a brake coach - trains which would actually fit on my CVR Fintonagh layout...

 Out came the pens and pencils to see what might be done. I've a bit of previous here, of course, having reversed Arigna Town to produce Belmullet. Fintonagh would not reverse well, but by removing the low relief buildings on the left hand board and repainting the backscene, I began to realise that a Rathmelton style quayside might well be possible, as the sketch below shows. I've added a wagon turntable, to suggest a line going off at right angles into the backscene, maybe through a warehouse.

 At the moment, I'm very committed to getting Northport Quay ready for its exhibition debut in October. Fintonagh meanwhile has a few more shows booked, but once NPQ starts going out may well take a back seat, so the idea of adapting it to something else is quite attractive. Interestingly, that could include quite a lot of the stock too:

• CVR Railcar 1 became Donegal 10
• The Donegal also bought the 'Unit', though more as a spare for the railcar
• The Atkinson-Walker tractor became Phoenix
• Quite a few CVR wagons went to both the Donegal  [becoming the 'Red Vans'] and the Swilly

 As far as building new stock is concerned, the Swilly's Barclay 4-6-0Ts will fit on Fintonagh's turntable, as will their smaller 4-6-2Ts. The Donegal's larger tank engines are all too big, as are their articulated railcars [apart from 10], but the earlier ones would make nice models and there are plans available.  A couple of Swilly coaches for a short passenger train, plus a brake coach to go with a short freight, along with something similar for the Donegal side of things might well be achievable.

 Date wise, I'd be looking at the mid to late 1940s, with both companies running trains on a short branch from Letterkenny. Maybe the station could be called Rathmelton Quay, being a short extension from a larger station in the town itself? Trains could include:

• A short Swilly passenger train - 4-6-2T and a couple of bogie coaches
• A Swilly goods - a 4-6-0T, three vans and a brake coach, shunting the off-scene siding[s]
• A short Donegal freight, using Phoenix or the Unit, shunting the front siding
• Railcar 10 & a van or two, shunting the loading dock
• Railcars 4 and 6 or 7, covering other passenger duties

  To me, this has a nice feel about it and would certainly enable that 'Swilly Itch' to be scratched. Indeed, for now, I feel it already has been to some extent, having been able to produce a viable scheme. Whether I go ahead with it or not doesn't matter for now, but once Northport Quay is finished, it could be a tempting way to breath fresh life into Fintonagh.

[Colin R]

David, I know that itch and it is so hard not to scratch it, but to take your concept a bit further have to looked at the road haulage map of the old Swilly Railway Co?

If you have, you will have seen so many possible lines to all these places in that part of Donegal.

I often wonder what LetterKenny would have looked like if all those road haulage routes had been Railways? and what about independence? I have this vision of a new line coming into Letterkenny direct from Stranorlar and the Donegal.

But as a final twist how about this, I think I read somewhere that around 1923 there was a proposal to merge both the Donegal and the Swilly into one company with over 400miles of 3ft gauge railways.

But that is not all, I don't know if it was true, but I am sure there was a proposal (beside your model) to built a 3ft gauge line to link the Donegal, the Cavan and Leitrim, the SLNCR and the GNR(I) all at one location. I don't know the geography of the area to see if it was even possible, but I think it was Jhb that told me there were more proposed Railway's in Ireland than the rest of the UK and boy did we end up with some crackpot schemes.         

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

 

But as a final twist how about this, I think I read somewhere that around 1923 there was a proposal to merge both the Donegal and the Swilly into one company with over 400miles of 3ft gauge railways.

But that is not all, I don't know if it was true, but I am sure there was a proposal (beside your model) to built a 3ft gauge line to link the Donegal, the Cavan and Leitrim, the SLNCR and the GNR(I) all at one location. I don't know the geography of the area to see if it was even possible, but I think it was Jhb that told me there were more proposed Railway's in Ireland than the rest of the UK and boy did we end up with some crackpot schemes.         

Yes, the amount of “crackpot” schemes at least equally the mileage of those built!

Places of 150-200 people miles and miles from anywhere with three separate schemes each…

The big narrow gauge one you’re thinking of - and probably the most inane proposal ever, anywhere - was the 3ft gauge Ulster & Connaught from Clifden to Greenore. It wouldn’t have involved the Donegal lines but it WOULD have involved new lines from Clifden and Galway meeting up about Shrule, then by studiously avoiding any population of more than a couple of hundred people, and crossing hundreds of acres of empty turf bogs, ended up at the Dromod end of the Cavan & Leitrim. Then onwards to almost the other end of that line, up to the Clogher Valley, along that and eastwards through an area with big engineering difficulties, down into Newry. At that point, the Greenore line would have become dual gauge.

I dunno what they were smoking…..

 

 

[Galteemore]

I think government cash was the hallucinatory substance most such imagineers favoured at the time….

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

I think government cash was the hallucinatory substance most such imagineers favoured at the time….

It was.

I'm researching the Kenmare line at the moment. There was a proposal to extent it some 30 miles to Castletownbere. Along that entire route there is, and was, zero industry, almost no population; and it would have ended at a tiny, isolated sleepy little fishing village, having struggled its way through probably the most difficult terrain any railway would have encountered anywhere in Ireland. They were STILL smoking that pot well into the 1900s....!

The reason was an imaginary huge transatlantic port, which was considered utter pie in the sky by anyone and everyone with even one hour's basic tuition in economics*, mail transport, geology, or climate knowledge of local seas.......

(*  We're talking here about those capable of counting to ten......)

From north Donegal to south Cork, I can think offhand of twelve such schemes, some seriously promoted as late as 1920-ish, which would have vyed with each other for the greatest waste of money (public or private) in world history. In all reality, very much the antecedent of the crass self-publicity-serving undersea tunnel ideas of a deeply odious 21st century orange coloured man with a piece of yellow carpet on his head in Brexitstan......................!

[Galteemore]

Although interestingly Berehaven did have something going for it. In 1898 the Admiralty upped the ante on the fortifications on Bere Island, which did become a significant military asset. A rail connection to Castletownbere could have proved useful perhaps in WW1, when the western naval bases were at full blast. But I suspect the 30s would have seen closure. On a related note, I wonder how the Berehaven, Swilly and Cobh treaty ports were supplied until 1938 and the final British withdrawal. The garrison troops may have been moved by sea, or possibly travelled by train in mufti. Some of the bulk stores may well have arrived by train, especially for the Cobh area. For those unaware of this little byway of Irish history, three UK garrisons were permitted to exist in the south between 1922 to 38 manning British naval bases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)

 

[minister_for_hardship]

9 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Although interestingly Berehaven did have something going for it. In 1898 the Admiralty upped the ante on the fortifications on Bere Island, which did become a significant military asset. A rail connection to Castletownbere could have proved useful perhaps in WW1, when the western naval bases were at full blast. But I suspect the 30s would have seen closure. On a related note, I wonder how the Berehaven, Swilly and Cobh treaty ports were supplied until 1938 and the final British withdrawal. The garrison troops may have been moved by sea, or possibly travelled by train in mufti. Some of the bulk stores may well have arrived by train, especially for the Cobh area. For those unaware of this little byway of Irish history, three UK garrisons were permitted to exist in the south between 1922 to 38 manning British naval bases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)

 

I'd imagine much of the stores and matereil for these bases would have come by sea even for security reasons alone. Perishable things such as food I could see being sourced locally and transported by train and ferried across to Hawlbowline. Laundry, unless they had a facility on site, could well be shuttled over and back between the base and laundries in the city.

[jhb171achill]

44 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Although interestingly Berehaven did have something going for it. In 1898 the Admiralty upped the ante on the fortifications on Bere Island, which did become a significant military asset. A rail connection to Castletownbere could have proved useful perhaps in WW1, when the western naval bases were at full blast. But I suspect the 30s would have seen closure. On a related note, I wonder how the Berehaven, Swilly and Cobh treaty ports were supplied until 1938 and the final British withdrawal. The garrison troops may have been moved by sea, or possibly travelled by train in mufti. Some of the bulk stores may well have arrived by train, especially for the Cobh area. For those unaware of this little byway of Irish history, three UK garrisons were permitted to exist in the south between 1922 to 38 manning British naval bases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)

 

Yes, very much so - and indeed - the British military authorities made that very case when the scheme was being discussed! On the other hand, their seafaring arm preferred Bantry owing to issues about servicing warships….

[Colin R]

Yes I am aware of the Ulster & Connaught from Clifden to Greenore as that one appears in the old H Fayle book on Irish Narrow Gauge Railways.

I think we have already discussed the proposed routes in Donegal to be run by either the Donegal or the Swilly.

Just to complete the picture I now need to find a map showing all of the Donegal bus and transport routes.      

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Yes I am aware of the Ulster & Connaught from Clifden to Greenore as that one appears in the old H Fayle book on Irish Narrow Gauge Railways.

I think we have already discussed the proposed routes in Donegal to be run by either the Donegal or the Swilly.

Just to complete the picture I now need to find a map showing all of the Donegal bus and transport routes.      

The Lough Swilly timetables showed that for years…… obviously the CDR only did buses when the railway was closing, but a nice “imaginary” CDR line might have been Killybegs - Kilcar….

On a similar vein, a little to the south the SLNCR had a respectable network of bus routes on which their ancient scrapyard buses (16th century vintage) skipped across potholes….

[Galteemore]

And one occasion stuck on a mountain, in 1948. The driver and a boon companion went drinking in Manorhamilton one day after a sporting fixture, and, after heading on a joyride for Blacklion, took the bus on a wrong turn up a hillside track. The inevitable happened and the bus stuck. Next day it was unavailable for duty, and an inquiry commenced. Mr Egan was advised that a large glittering object was visible on Ballyboy mountain. Mr Egan took his field glasses to a suitable viewpoint and identified his lost bus, which was eventually recovered. The driver concluded his SLNC career as a conductor….

Edited December 30, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

And one occasion stuck on a mountain, in 1948. The driver and a boon companion went drinking in Manorhamilton one day after a sporting fixture, and, after heading on a joyride for Blacklion, took the bus on a wrong turn up a hillside track. The inevitable happened and the bus stuck. Next day it was unavailable for duty, and an inquiry commenced. Mr Egan was advised that a large glittering object was visible on Ballyboy mountain. Mr Egan took his field glasses to a suitable viewpoint and identified his lost bus, which was eventually recovered. The driver concluded his SLNC career as a conductor….

I'm surprised he retained ANY career with them at all!

[jhb171achill]

18 hours ago, David Holman said:

 

This is about as perfect a set-up as possible for a small layout of the various different versions of your excellent takents, david. It combines realism with maximum use in minimum space, operational challenges in shunting to maximise interest, and all this without making it look too cluttered. A track layout like that, or with little variation, would suit any of your projects, plus those being discussed.

[Galteemore]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I'm surprised he retained ANY career with them at all!

The number of people in North Leitrim c 1950 who had any spatial awareness beyond 1 mile of their patch of bog was limited. Anyone who knew the road from Manorhamilton to Dowra couldn’t simply be dispensed with….

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

The number of people in North Leitrim c 1950 who had any spatial awareness beyond 1 mile of their patch of bog was limited. Anyone who knew the road from Manorhamilton to Dowra couldn’t simply be dispensed with….

And people who could work all three gears on a SLNCR bus, and steer bald tyres as well, were even more valuable...........!

Edited December 30, 2022 by jhb171achill

[David Holman]

Lovely stuff, everyone!