anyone done a 21mm layout with murphy models

[Junctionmad]

are there any of these in existence, ?

[Mayner]

I converted a couple of MM B141 to 21mm gauge, I have not had time to build a layout

 

The diesel locos can be converted easily enough, the coaches are more of a challenge as the bogies are unsuitable for the wider gauge.

 

 

 

Converting the locos is basically a matter of swapping out the wheel sets with those on a longer axle. Its possible to re-use the existing Bachmann/MM wheelsets some users have turned down the wheelsets to S4 standards.

 

Murphy Models coaches need new bogies and most rtr wagons new chassis as the width between the bogie sidframes/axleboxes is too narrow for a 21mm wheelset.

 

Tony Miles "Adavoyle" now in the care of the South Dublln Model Railway Club (SDMRC) is probably the most famous 21mm S4 layout, A number of SDMRC members built an S4 model of Belturbet in 21 mm gauge. The Model Railway Society of Loughrea is built in 21mm to EM/OO gauge track standards. Andy Cundick a 21mm S4 layout based on Valencia Harbour regularly appears on the UK exhibition circuit

Edited September 25, 2015 by Mayner

[Noel]

No but found a few links

 

http://newirishlines.org/2009/09/28/converting-the-murphy-bachmann-141-class-diesel-to-21mm-gauge/

 

[WRENNEIRE]

There are some 21 mm 141's that run on this layout but no pics of them at the moment

I will try to get some soon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Weshty]

Ah lads, that's just lovely.

 

The Station Hotel shot is the cherry on the cake.

[Junctionmad]

Tks guys

[skinner75]

lovely work that

[roxyguy]

Living in Loughrea now, that's fantastic.

[Noel]

Excellent. It reeks of a bygone era in the west of Ireland. Love the colour tones, buildings and backscene.

[Andy Cundick]

Bogies for 21mm are no problem at all,just use the MJT compensated coach bogies to whatever wheelbase you want and just use the Murphy side frames.I've not used any Murphy stuff myself as it is much too modern,but some of my GN coaches run on them as well as the nonpowered ends of various GN railcars and one end of my C Class(High Level chassis under the business end),though saying that Valencia operates purely with 6 wheelers as bogie stock was still banned in 1935.Andy

[WRENNEIRE]

Any pics Andy?

Sound's great

[RichL]

What if you don't feel confident about P4 standards - is there an Irish equivalent of EM standards that people use?

[craven1508]

just amazing modelling!! that is just magic!

[Andy Cundick]

Rich.Valencia is built to EM standards.The track is copperclad with Code 75 rail the only different item you need is a track gauge for 21mm.The Scalefour people used to do them and may still do,if not you can make one up from washers and a bolt.If you havn't built a point before my first one as built using an SMP point kit and i just blew up the plan for 21mmgauge and to my surprise it worked.AS for photos of Valencia a bit beyond my computer talents,but RM web has a couple of shots of her in the Larkrail report in the exhibition bit and theres one of her on the Loddon Vale Club site from their show last weekend though the caption slightly wrong as the transport was an Austin 10 not a 7.Andy.

[21mmp4]

[Junctionmad]

templot will generate correct 21mm templates for any track formation. , it's free software too

[RichL]

Rich.Valencia is built to EM standards.The track is copperclad with Code 75 rail the only different item you need is a track gauge for 21mm.

 

Thanks Andy. I was thinking that an EM version of Irish gauge would need to be sub-21mm though, as EM wheels are wider than prototype - rather like EM is 18.2mm instead of 18.83.

[StevieB]

Both EM and P4 are modelling standards, with the latter finer than the former, but both would use a track gauge of 21mm. As EM is short for 18mm, should we not use the term TM for the equivalent 21mm standard? If the American 00 standard of 19mm had been more widely accepted, then would we be working too much about the extra 2mm?

 

Stephen

[Junctionmad]

Both EM and P4 are modelling standards, with the latter finer than the former, but both would use a track gauge of 21mm. As EM is short for 18mm, should we not use the term TM for the equivalent 21mm standard? If the American 00 standard of 19mm had been more widely accepted, then would we be working too much about the extra 2mm?

 

Stephen

 

you could use any standard you like and modify it for 21mm, for example use DOGA - intermediate flange ways etc this would allow to use the existing 00 gauge wheel profiles but on a longer axle

[StevieB]

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't DOGA standards the same as EM, save for the different track gauge?

I believe that Valencia Harbour was featured in a recent edition of one of the main stream UK modelling mags - looked very good.

 

Stephen

[Broithe]

I believe that Valencia Harbour was featured in a recent edition of one of the main stream UK modelling mags - looked very good.

 

Model Rail No 198, August 2014.

 

[Andy Cundick]

Valencia was also in Irish lines a couple of editions ago,and if you are really desperate she's at Warley this year.The successor Courtmacsherry may be there in 3 years time as 2 of the 3' layouts are there the next 2 years.Castlederg next year and Arigna 2017,what larks! Andy.

[Mayner]

you could use any standard you like and modify it for 21mm, for example use DOGA - intermediate flange ways etc this would allow to use the existing 00 gauge wheel profiles but on a longer axle

 

I re-gauged one of my MM B141s using the existing Bachmann wheels on 26mm 2mm dia axles and re-gauged the other pair using Ultrascale wheel sets.

 

 

The thread of the Bachmann wheels are wider than the "OO Finescale"/EM profile wheels produced by Ultrascale & Alan Gibson.

 

I found that the re-gauged Bachmann wheels fouled the inside of the B141/181 side frames and it was necessary to remove a lot of plastic from inside the frames before the loco would run.

 

This does not seem to be a problem with the MM 071 as the bogie side frames are thinner.

 

Loco re-gauged with existing wheels top Ultrascale wheels bottom

 

 

 

 

 

 

I used small 2mm top hat brushes secured to the axle with Loctite 601 to restrict side play

[The Derry Road]

Andy, looking forward to seeing Valencia at Warley in November, will call and say hello, TDR

[Mayner]

 

 

The wheel puller is available along with a range of really useful tools from G W Models who advertise in Model Railway Journal.

 

The back to back gauge (big metal thingy) was supplied by Terry McDermott of TMD the Genesis of the current range of SSM kits.

 

The conversion of the loco took approximately 1 hour.

 

Dapol/Airfix tank wagon conversion

The solebars (side frames) are packed out with 1mm plasticard otherwise the 21mm wheelsets would not fit. Wheels are Ultrascale on 28mm pin point axles.

Commonwealth Coach bogie with MJT torsion bar suspension unit with 1mm plastciard packers

 

Economy 21mm coach bogie conversion

Old Hornby Stanier bogie with plasticard bolster and standard OO wheelset, std 26mm axle cut in two and pushed out to 28mm 2mm brass sleeve.

 

The "economy" conversion was remarkably effective and trouble free in operation at exhibitions, along with a pair of old style Hornby Staniers I also had a MK3 Push Pull set converted from Lima MK3s with plasticard bolsters

Edited October 2, 2015 by Mayner

[Junctionmad]

to save costs of ultra scale etc , I was wondering if building the track to 21mm with with either EM or 00-SF flange ways would make things easier . I could then use ordinary 00 wheel sets on wider axles ?

 

Dave

[David Holman]

21mm [or indeed 36.75mm] definitely the way to go. Everything just looks so right for the Irish scene & as Iain Rice would say, is THE prime layout'signature'

While have no experience of 4mm scale, in 7mm 'fine scale' standards work perfectly well. OK the flange/crossing clearances are over scale compared to S7, but Arigna Town sees no derailments other than operator error & this is with Code 100 rail [as opposed to 124] as well. In 4mm scale, C&L point kits should make up perfectly well in 21mm gauge. As they come with blades ready machined and crossing fees already assembled, construction should be no more difficult than making a plastic kit...

Can see why folk stick with 16.5mm in 4mm scale [especially the larger layouts] and as long as the viewpoint is kept at a low angle [plus using Code 75 rail], then it can look fine - as many photos on IRM show. Correct gauge really lifts things to another level though & would certainly encourage folk to have a go. Start with something small though!

[Junctionmad]

The issue is not 21mm is whether to go p4 that has significant consequences , you could so 21mm EM standard too

[David Holman]

P4 now proven for those that like the precision. Plenty of layouts around now that run well - certainly not the case 10 years ago in my experience. 21mm to EM standards is [i'm fairly sure] the same as FS 16.5. The crossing gaps are slightly narrower & by the by, is why some folk in 7mm scale have a track gauge of 31.2 mm. Wheel back to backs stay the same, so flange ways through the points are tighter/smoother.

[jhb171achill]

That's a superbly atmospheric layout -saw it at an exhibition a few years ago. Was delighted to see the first train coming in consisting of a couple of Midland 6-wheelers.

[Junctionmad]

P4 now proven for those that like the precision. Plenty of layouts around now that run well - certainly not the case 10 years ago in my experience. 21mm to EM standards is [i'm fairly sure] the same as FS 16.5. The crossing gaps are slightly narrower & by the by, is why some folk in 7mm scale have a track gauge of 31.2 mm. Wheel back to backs stay the same, so flange ways through the points are tighter/smoother.

 

I just couldnt be bothered building compensation in. thats why I'm interested in EM flange ways ( 1mm) and wider wheel profiles, these can generate a few issue in steam locos but not in bogie stock

[Andy Cundick]

Not convinced about compensation on everything certainly not on ordinary 4 wheel stock.Personally i reckon getting the track level helps more.I use the MJT bogies but they are soldered up solid an d merely rely on the 3 point suspension provided by both bogies,as for locos both J15's are fixed chassis but the GN A has a compensated chassis(i know bit out of location but to the uninitiated its a black 060) and they all run about the same.My view is use EM or P4 standards the main is the gauge which looks right cos it is.One oddity re Warley i noticed that Alan Gee (Schull)and me are listed under continental in layout page whereas O'Connell Street is with te British 4mm layouts,is that because we are beyond the pale?Andy.

[StevieB]

For those interested, and able to get there, Valencia Harbour is being exhibited at Cheltenham this coming week-end http://www.cheltmodrail.org.uk. It's always a good little show with the profits going to a very good cause.

 

Stephen

[Junctionmad]

O'Connell Street is with te British 4mm layouts,is that because we are beyond the pale?Andy.

 

I dont think Dublin ever left the Union did it?, cant see any signs that it did

[Colin R]

Still finding my way around this forum and this one feel like home from home, going 21mm is the plan, but using EM standards that sounds about right for me.

 

I bet someone somewhere will have apoplexy at that thought.

 

Colin