brianmcs Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Hello folks , I finally bought an aerosol to paint my silverfox A class . I specified RAL 2011 but it seems a very light shade , it is definitely lighter than the orange on the MM 141 I have . Does anyone know where I could get the correct shade ? Brian. Quote
0 Noel Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Hello folks , I finally bought an aerosol to paint my silverfox A class . I specified RAL 2011 but it seems a very light shade , it is definitely lighter than the orange on the MM 141 I have .Does anyone know where I could get the correct shade ? Brian. Hi Brian Experienced folks like Glenderg and others are best equipped to answer your question. This Phoenix paint may suit http://www.marksmodels.com/?pid=15977 but lets see what the lads come up with. Noel Quote
0 Glenderg Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Hello folks , I finally bought an aerosol to paint my silverfox A class . I specified RAL 2011 but it seems a very light shade , it is definitely lighter than the orange on the MM 141 I have .Does anyone know where I could get the correct shade ? Brian. Brian, I have a large paint sample from the tumblehome of a MKIII that I use as a reference. I'll try and get some photos in the daylight with other orange MM181's if someone's after the bang on shade. All I know is that RAL 2011 is not right to represent an in-use MKIII paint. The Crown Trade shop in Baldoyle, Dublin has a scanner that will scan a paint colour you have and replicate it, or at least give you a code. What livery are you doing your A Class in - IR? Richie. Are you going for the IR livery A-Class then or an earlier supertrain shade? Quote
0 GSR 800 Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Richie, by any chance would you know what's the type of green CIE green for the steam locomotives were? Quote
0 Glenderg Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Richie, by any chance would you know what's the type of green CIE green for the steam locomotives were? Quote
0 GSR 800 Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 So..no? Thanks anyway.Hmm does anyone know the type of green or even what mixture for the dark CIE green? Quote
0 Broithe Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 There may have been as many as forty shades.. Quote
0 Glenderg Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I'll have a look downstairs later Harry. Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Original CIE green is on 800 in Cultra, and the background of the "flying snail" logo mounted on a board and on display in Headhunters Railway Museum in Enniskillen. The darker shade used on (a few) steam locomotives, buses, station paintwork, early diesels and carriages painted prior to 1955 was constant, and the above samples are accurate for all such applications. Where shades, or perceptions of shades, enter the fray is with the lighter green shade, which today can be seen at most accurate on C231, G611, and the preserved TPO on the DCDR; also on the RPSI's Dublin based "heritage" coaches. Quote
0 brianmcs Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 Hi Glenderg , have been admiring your work on this forum for some time. Thanks for the reply. I am trying to do the livery in the photo on page 47 of Barry Carse's book . A class hauling a bell liner . that is, black and tan with CIE roundel. Would the shade of Orange on the MM141 be reasonably accurate ? best regards, Brian. Brian, I have a large paint sample from the tumblehome of a MKIII that I use as a reference. I'll try and get some photos in the daylight with other orange MM181's if someone's after the bang on shade. All I know is that RAL 2011 is not right to represent an in-use MKIII paint. The Crown Trade shop in Baldoyle, Dublin has a scanner that will scan a paint colour you have and replicate it, or at least give you a code. What livery are you doing your A Class in - IR? Richie. Are you going for the IR livery A-Class then or an earlier supertrain shade? Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Which book? If you mean his "Irish Metrovick Diesels", the various locos in green are in the later light green. For the dark green, the best representations in modern colour books would be A46 (I think the only A to get dark green) on P59 of the recent "Irish traction in Colour" by Derek Huntriss. In the same book, look at the railcar at Limerick on P79, and now-preserved C231 at Bray at the top of P90. Other pictures in the same book and others show the dark green, of course, but it hasn't translated into print quite as accurately as the above. Edited October 29, 2015 by jhb171achill Quote
0 brianmcs Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 Which book? If you mean his "Irish Metrovick Diesels", the various locos in green are in the later light green. yes , that book , the loco on page 47 is in the orange and black livery. Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Ah! Sorry, I thought you meant green livery. My mistake - re-reading posts I don't know where I got THAT from! Looking at the picture you refer to, while the loco is dirty, the picture and printing process do indeed reflect the colour and shade accurately for that version. Quote
0 popeye Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I took this picture of 800 at cultra, it might help. I think books can be a poor way to obtain the correct colours from prototypes as every picture seems to be a different shade. Find a colour that is close and mix to get a colour you are happy with. Green is made by mixing blue & yellow so you can add one or the other to change the shade, also lighten or darken with black or white. Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Excellent, popeye, but due to the flash it shows up way too light; Cultra is very poorly organised for natural light on the sides of its exhibits. Looking at other pictures in the books I mentioned, you can clearly see "forty shades", but my initial point was that the ones I identified have reproduced on paper (for whatever reason; lighting on the day, camera or film quality..) as the most accurate. Quote
0 Glenderg Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I'll have to dig them out but there are oireachtas transcripts of fervent bacbenchers demanding that CIE, in the midst of the second world war mind, distinguish their new CIE green as distinct from the Maunsell green used across the ditch. It was noted that the British used a healthy amount of blue in their green shade, ala jaguar green, and the irish should opt for something with more yellow,to represent the Applegreen. This was a political motivation rather than one dictated by a graphic designer. I have a massive problem with the contention that the tpo at downpatrick represents any shade that actually ran on irish metal, but that's an argument between me to and JB! Review for yourself the photos on swissirishernies Flickr account from that period, in colour, and making allowances for poor film, bad cameras, show me one colour photo that remotely matches the dirty mint green of the TPO, and I'll hang my hat for good. As for the orange, Patrick Scotts tan colour had nothing to do with his cat. His ceramic paintbrush pot from Spain was that colour. Anyway, that tan colour as we call it, when diluted with about 20% white is mk3 tippex orange, yet another CIE reuse and recycle scheme. Try it with them phoenix paint pots if a non believer. I believe a challenge has been issued.... R. Quote
0 brianmcs Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 It is pretty much impossible to match colours exactly, just google RAL 2011 and look at images. If the MM locos set the standard , does that include the shade of orange on them ? Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 ".......I have a massive problem with the contention that the tpo at downpatrick represents any shade that actually ran on irish metal, but that's an argument between me and JB!......." ...I should have clarified..... It's quite faded now, and the shade on G611 is getting that way. But when newly painted it was pretty good! If you rub it down a bit when close up, it shows. Quote
0 Glenderg Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 No, the MM locos differ entirely across the range, little or nothing to do with the Man himself. Weathered 181's have a mauve hue, the 201's have a salmon hue, the 086SA is mighty sour brown, and the MK2d's are off the mark completely. Unfortunately there is no MKIII orange, or "supertrain" yardstick for ordinary folk to say - "this is the colour, can I have a tin of this" As noel said in post 2 on this thread, the closest to supertrain/black and tan that I've worked with appears to be Phoenix Precision paint golden brown. It works for all eras, looks right neat and weathered, and ties in with the photos of the era. R. Quote
0 Weshty Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 As noel said in post 2 on this thread, the closest to supertrain/black and tan that I've worked with appears to be Phoenix Precision paint golden brown. It works for all eras, looks right neat and weathered, and ties in with the photos of the era. R. +1. It's the real deal, and being enamel has a very deep texture Quote
0 brianmcs Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 thanks guys , the current issue of the IRRS journal has a photo of an A class hauling mk2s on the rear cover . The loco and coaches are clearly different shades of orange /tan/brown. It seems the phoenix paint is the best option for the A class. Presumably mk3s would need a different shade . Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 There's another wild card in all of this. When newly applied, this colour appeared somewhat more orangey than when weathered and faded. Many colour photos of engines in the "black'n'tan" era appear very much mo brown, but this is because they were often taken when locos were in their later times of that livery. The colour on the back of the journal may be different, but equally it may be a combination of the light and the fact that the locomotive is dirtier. And I'm not trying to muddy the waters here! :-) That picture was taken in 1992, by which time the locomotive could have been carrying the livery shown for up to five years. Carriages were cleaned far more often too. As others have said, it's hard to get the tan / orange right. It's not without precedent: across the water, arguments and debate has continued among modellers for at least fifty years as to what the correct shade of LNER green is, and LMS maroon. Quote
0 Blaine Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 As already stated - 40 shades of orange No doubt there were a few bathrooms painted CIE/IR/IE orange around Inchicore over the years - 5 litres of thinners replacing 5 litres of paint..... Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Well, Blaine, there was a "flying snail" in my father's old house..... and indeed, it did come from Inchicore! Quote
0 Broithe Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 As already stated - 40 shades of orange No doubt there were a few bathrooms painted CIE/IR/IE orange around Inchicore over the years - 5 litres of thinners replacing 5 litres of paint..... I believe that the phrase "forty shades of orange" remains in your copyright.... ..perhaps it was the thinners that was part of the cause..? Quote
0 brianmcs Posted November 15, 2015 Author Posted November 15, 2015 +1. It's the real deal, and being enamel has a very deep texture For the A class I agree , but the instructions with the SSM egv overlay recommend RAL 2011. Quote
0 jhb171achill Posted November 15, 2015 Posted November 15, 2015 The shade of green for CIE locos was standard, and the thirty nine other shades were on plants and women's clothes! Often, as in GNR blue, lack of information leads to rumours that there was no standard. For CIE standard green, there are several accurately paint preserved buses, plus 800 in Cultra, and the mounted "flying snail" in Headhunters railway museum in Enniskillen. The latter two are actually painted with "real" paint Inchicore. I can't comment, though, on reference numbers or the like. If the above real examples can be matched, that's the correct way to go. Quote
0 Glenderg Posted November 15, 2015 Posted November 15, 2015 Sorry about the quality, but on the left is a MM IR 183 with the factory weathering taken off with some wire wool. On the right is MM IE 184. Straddling in the middle is a sample of a MKIII paint from the North Wall. It comprises a some bauxite, grey primer, a white surface coat, super train, three more white coats and finally the top coat you see here. While the IR is closest to the real thing, its a bit dark, and needs to be lighter and with a bit more yellow to match. HTH R. Quote
0 iarnrod Posted November 15, 2015 Posted November 15, 2015 Allowing for weathering and fading on the MkIII sample, the MM0183 is probably very close to the real thing. Removing factory weathering with wire wool - Interesting technique that looks pretty effective. Quote
0 brianmcs Posted November 16, 2015 Author Posted November 16, 2015 [ATTACH=CONFIG]21041[/ATTACH] Sorry about the quality, but on the left is a MM IR 183 with the factory weathering taken off with some wire wool. On the right is MM IE 184. Straddling in the middle is a sample of a MKIII paint from the North Wall. It comprises a some bauxite, grey primer, a white surface coat, super train, three more white coats and finally the top coat you see here. While the IR is closest to the real thing, its a bit dark, and needs to be lighter and with a bit more yellow to match. HTH R. That is a great illustration of the variations which exist . I wonder if the sample piece of the MK3 was scanned by a paint company's scanner would it it produce a definitive number/code for future reference ? Quote
0 Glenderg Posted November 16, 2015 Posted November 16, 2015 The Crown Trade shop in Baldoyle, Dublin has a scanner that will scan a paint colour you have and replicate it, or at least give you a code. I have tried to colour match the sample to a Crown NCS colour chart, S 1080-Y50R, being the closest, and converting it to RGB and then RAL, comes out at RAL 2008. I'll try and get up to Baldoyle to get it scanned and a tester pot to see how it replicates. The supertrain colour underneath is just a much darker/browner version incidentally. R. Quote
0 skinner75 Posted November 16, 2015 Posted November 16, 2015 That looks way off to me - the colour in the middle of the strip three to the left looks a lot closer to me (allowing for the fact I'm looking at it on a screen). That, or the colour (S 0585-Y40R) at the end of the strip you have the sample on looks closer too Quote
0 Garfield Posted November 16, 2015 Posted November 16, 2015 That looks way off to me - the colour in the middle of the strip three to the left looks a lot closer to me (allowing for the fact I'm looking at it on a screen). That, or the colour (S 0585-Y40R) at the end of the strip you have the sample on looks closer too It could be your monitor settings... it looks fairly close to me. Quote
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Question
brianmcs
Hello folks , I finally bought an aerosol to paint my silverfox A class . I specified RAL 2011 but it seems a very light shade , it is definitely lighter than the orange on the MM 141 I have .
Does anyone know where I could get the correct shade ?
Brian.
43 answers to this question
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