Horsetan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Before you all go drilling holes through Heljan chassis... Frateschi produce an A1A-A1A model of EMD's G12 export design, which although marketed as being a HO scale model is actually more likely to be OO. ..... The Frateschi locos can be bought online for around €80 including shipping........ Whilst stumbling around Frateschi's website, it seems that you don't necessarily have to buy the whole G12, as the mechanical parts may be available as spares.... ....and one Frateschi stockist in Switzerland sells G12 spares.... Edited December 21, 2015 by Horsetan Quote
Garfield Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Whilst stumbling around Frateschi's website, it seems that you don't necessarily have to buy the whole G12, as the mechanical parts may be available as spares.... ....and one Frateschi stockist in Switzerland sells G12 spares.... Good to see there's a supplier on this side of the pond, although I'm not sure if there'd be much of a saving by buying the parts separately. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 .... I'm not sure if there'd be much of a saving by buying the parts separately. True, but at least you wouldn't be stuck with parts you didn't want. Quote
Garfield Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 True, but at least you wouldn't be stuck with parts you didn't want. Funnily enough, I've never had a problem selling unneeded loco bodies on eBay. Quote
WRENNEIRE Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 This is a Frateschi G12FFAA GM Bogies Quote
jhb171achill Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Would it be about right lengthwise for a 121 or a (possibly scratch built) 141 - for anyone who wasn't able to get a Murphy one, for example? Quote
Garfield Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Would it be about right lengthwise for a 121 or a (possibly scratch built) 141 - for anyone who wasn't able to get a Murphy one, for example? I've seen them used to power 121s, JB... snug fit and all. Quote
Noel Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Bizarrely I've never had a desire to have a model Sulzer, but this thread may well convert me. The emerging kit looks great and very complete with detailing, lights and now a possible chassis that should live up to the quality of the models appearance. Quote
Weshty Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Bizarrely I've never had a desire to have a model Sulzer, but this thread may well convert me. The emerging kit looks great and very complete with detailing, lights and now a possible chassis that should live up to the quality of the models appearance. Thanks Noel. Lights are not included in the rereleased version. The donor price is not yet finalised, but I hope to do kit +donor + postage for c. €155. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Elsewhere, I think I've partly solved the problem of obtaining those Heljan plastic gears. Fingers crossed. The Heljan cog has 12 teeth, and has an overall diameter of about 6.95mm. Not sure what DP or MOD type it is, though..... Edited December 24, 2015 by Horsetan more detail Quote
Junctionmad Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Elsewhere, I think I've partly solved the problem of obtaining those Heljan plastic gears. Fingers crossed. Thats a good point , Im searching for a good general supplier of plastic gear sets, ones that are a step up from the tamiya model variey , anyone know of any Quote
Noel Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Thanks Noel. Lights are not included in the rereleased version. The donor price is not yet finalised, but I hope to do kit +donor + postage for c. €155. Apologies Des, I misunderstood about the lights when I saw them in photo HorseTan's post without reading the text which explained http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/5080-Sulzer-Kit?p=81207&viewfull=1#post81207 Anyway sign me up for one when they are ready. Will the donor chassis you are planning have a PCB which can be used to connect to a decoder (wired, 8 or 21 pin), and optionally an additional lighting kit? Thanks Noel Quote
Junctionmad Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Anyway sign me up for one Jeepers , Noel, from a man that said to me last year that you couldn't be bothered with " kits" you're going to be a busy bee with all the ones lined up in front of you. Edited December 23, 2015 by Junctionmad Quote
Horsetan Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Jeepers , Noel, from a man that said to me last year that you couldn't be bothered with " kits" you're going to be a busy bee with all the ones lined up in front of you. "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, Sir?" (John Maynard Keynes) Quote
Horsetan Posted December 25, 2015 Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Elsewhere, I think I've partly solved the problem of obtaining those Heljan plastic gears. Fingers crossed. The Heljan cog has 12 teeth, and has an overall diameter of about 6.95mm. Not sure what DP or MOD type it is, though..... The large Heljan cog (the initial stage driven by the worm) is 10.92mm overall diameter, and has 20 teeth. Bill Bedford reckons all Heljan gears are 0.5MOD. Edited December 25, 2015 by Horsetan Quote
Glenderg Posted December 25, 2015 Posted December 25, 2015 Horse, get some sleep man. Santy will be here soon and he might get you a Class 55 chassis, save you all the stress Quote
Horsetan Posted December 25, 2015 Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) (Ten hours later) Think I've found a couple of other sources of the 12T and 20T spur gears; not too expensive. Original Heljan Hymek geartrain looks like this: ....whereas the room left for a centre axle on the Sulzer bogie looks like this: A bit close to the idlers. Edited December 25, 2015 by Horsetan Photos added Quote
Dhu Varren Posted December 25, 2015 Posted December 25, 2015 [quote=Horsetan;81631 A bit close to the idlers. Close does not matter, only a problem if they touch. In any case, it would be easy enough to move the two idlers up a bit to allow a bit of vertical movement of the axle. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Started on the body, with a bit of filling and filing of windows and frames: The thing I'm confused by are the cab front windscreens: the SSM cutting guides suggest the outer pair are slanted, but all the photos I'm seeing suggest that they are perfectly straight: Quote
Glenderg Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 the only one that is flat is the central one, and it's angled backward. the sidelights follow the curve of the upper part of the cab above the crease. This photo illustrates it nicely. Quote
jhb171achill Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 You'll note in the photo the unique (to this class) form of the black'n'tan livery carried by several of these engines for a time. When CIE painted locos plain black, the white bit was limited to the tops of cab ends; it didn't go all around and along the sides, unless tan was present too. Several of the B101 class, for a short time, carried the end-only white flashes, but tan the whole way, and full height at that. There was no CIE roundel included, as far as I remember, and I can't see one above. Many of you will have noted the absolutely superb job recently carried out by the ITG at Downpatrick, in repainting A39 in black'n'tan. This raises an interesting, but small detail, with regard to CIE diesel liveries. As restored now, A39 has a "roundel" on the side. Generally, when an A or C class loco carried full-height tan, there was no roundel. And very few of them carried full height tan at all, especially in later days (post-re-engining). But A39 was one of those which did! Normally, the tan band would be the lower one for a re-engine A. So, great congratulations are due to the ITG and its members for an accurate research job well carried out. If only so many other preserved items were restored with this degree of attention to external appearance - which is what people see first. Back to the B101 - it can be all black, like the one at Carrick (though with proper font numerals, not the very thick numbers on it). In this guise, there would be a "roundel". Secondly, it can be same with yellow end patches. Third, it can be as above, a variation not carried by any other loco class, and fourth as above but with roundel and with lower tan strip instead of full height band. Fifth, of course, for some (not all) members of the class, "supertrain" livery. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 the only one that is flat is the central one, and it's angled backward. the sidelights follow the curve of the upper part of the cab above the crease. This photo illustrates it nicely. Right so, a rhomboid shape and not a regular rectangle? Quote
Glenderg Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Sorry Horse, I got the gist of your question wrong. Yes, they are rectangular windows with curved corners, rather than rhomboid. In the first few kits I built I used CD covers to make the glazing panels by cutting strips, then small rectangles, then filing the edges, and push fitted them into the cabs so they'd finish flush with the opes. Any gaps around the edges were easily filled in with a bit of filler. Quote
aclass007 Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Started on the body, with a bit of filling and filing of windows and frames: The thing I'm confused by are the cab front windscreens: the SSM cutting guides suggest the outer pair are slanted, but all the photos I'm seeing suggest that they are perfectly straight: What are people's opinion on the two vertical creases beneath the centre windscreen? I think they need to be sanded down. From what I can see, the Sulzers had a gentle curve on the front panel.. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Sorry Horse, I got the gist of your question wrong. Yes, they are rectangular windows with curved corners, rather than rhomboid. ..... The SSM glazing template looks like a rhomboid. I must be going mad. Quote
DiveController Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Right so, a rhomboid shape and not a regular rectangle? The central window would be RECTANGULAR but instead of being vertically orientated would be in a plane that tilts toward the locomotive (from bottom to top) as the 'flat' lower front of the locomotive angles backwards at about waist height in the cab (kinda like any car windscreen, (if it were flat)) However, it looks like the lower centre of the cab of the only part that is vertical and perpendicular (vertically and transversely) to the long axis of the locomotive. It looks like each side, right and left of the center front panel also angles towards the locomotive (from centrally to the side). The distance between the central and side window frames appears to remain constant between (say,) the top and bottom. Hence, (while remaining parallel to the centre window edges, from the front and angling away from the central window on each side) the non-central windows are not parallelograms but QUADRANGULAR in shape. The tops and bottoms of these windows are parallel to each other and only the central side of them is parallel to the central window vertical edges. Now, if theres a curve on these panels, everything I just said is wrong for the non-central windows. So hopefully whoever designed the kit also came to the same conclusions. And since the corners are rounded all these shapes are approximate While all of this might be evident on the prototype, I doubt you would appreciate it scaled down 76 times, so it's likely the window will appear as a rhomboidal parallelogram with rounded corners (side are unequal length), not a rhombus (equal) Sorry, I may have driven you completely mad now Edited December 27, 2015 by DiveController Quote
Horsetan Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 ..... whoever designed the kit also came to the same conclusions.... That would be Des. I'm definitely going mad. Quote
DiveController Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Ivan, I looked at your kit and the photos again and, honestly, the windows shapes appear to look the same. I understand you're striving for perfection but you're also going to have to fit the kit windows into any space you create unless you're going to customize them. Quote
Horsetan Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Window base is definitely flat -all three panes are in the horizontal. Same here as well Quote
DiveController Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Window base is definitely flat -all three panes are in the horizontal. Same here as well Yes, I think the lower edge is in on the horizontal but they seem to slope away to the side at least in these Quote
Glenderg Posted December 26, 2015 Posted December 26, 2015 Horse, you'll have to strike a line across the front using something curved and file the window openings. It's on my workbench somewhere but I haven't a clue off hand. But trust me - each window in their local axis is a curved rectangular shape. On a world axis they'd be "odd". Engineers would not have gone to the trouble of designing complex multiangled shapes without 3D software in the 60's. Did BR do it with the windows on their sulzers? Rounded rectangles... Quote
Weshty Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 Just to add my tuppence, those windows were the devil themselves to model. Definitely an offset rhomboid of types. Not helped by the fact that the lower face of the loco is faceted but above the windows is compound curved. You are only now noting the fun and games I had back in 2012! Quote
Horsetan Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) Aha! So it wasn't my imagination, Des....! I found two clear photos of 103 in the "Rails Through The West" book, and the windscreen bases are decidedly horizontal there as well. Edited December 28, 2015 by Horsetan Quote
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