Sulzer Kit

[irishthump]

, and not on my radar at the moment.

 

Appreciate that, Des. Thanks.

[Horsetan]

Interestingly, Hollywood Foundry does sell a 21mm x 21mm motor bogie, but it's for 12mm gauge....

 

There is an alternative DIY kit that they supply, though, and it seems that you can build it in 21mm gauge as well....

 

Interesting, but feckin' expensive.

 

JHB check out Cheltenham Model Center website CL 55 were £39.99 brand new & they were in stock last week

 

Here it is.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Horsetan

[Warbonnet]

Des' date=' Could this also be a potential donor chassis for the A Class kit? (Apologies if this is slightly off topic and SSM does'nt produce the A class. Just a general query.)[/quote']

 

atlas/kato rsd 4/5. Should get one 2nd hand on eBay cheap enough. Should fit like a glove and is an exquisite runner.

[irishthump]

atlas/kato rsd 4/5. Should get one 2nd hand on eBay cheap enough. Should fit like a glove and is an exquisite runner.

 

Cheers, Fran.

I already converted an Athearn F7 chassis with some Atlas bogies, so I'm sorted! Just wondered if this could be a solution for anybody else who is contemplating a kit.

[Glenderg]

Cheers, Fran.

I already converted an Athearn F7 chassis with some Atlas bogies, so I'm sorted! Just wondered if this could be a solution for anybody else who is contemplating a kit.

 

This might help thump

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/4032-Chassis-for-the-Silverfox-A-Class

[irishthump]

This might help thump

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/4032-Chassis-for-the-Silverfox-A-Class

 

Jayzus.... I KNOW!!!!

[Warbonnet]

Cheers, Fran.

I already converted an Athearn F7 chassis with some Atlas bogies, so I'm sorted! Just wondered if this could be a solution for anybody else who is contemplating a kit.

 

Nice, great thing about the yank stuff is the interchangable parts between a lot of the manufacturers. Like being able to drop a Kato motor into an Athearn loco seamlessly. Sounds like a cool conversion!

[jhb171achill]

Art imitating reality; it's like sticking an American engine into a Crossley-engined Metrovick.... I wonder if that would work.....

[irishthump]

Nice, great thing about the yank stuff is the interchangable parts between a lot of the manufacturers. Like being able to drop a Kato motor into an Athearn loco seamlessly. Sounds like a cool conversion!

 

Athearn frame, Atlas bogies, Proto motor. And like you said the drive parts are all identical. Have a shufty....

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/77-Graham-s-Workbench?p=74174&viewfull=1#post74174

[Mayner]

Interestingly, Hollywood Foundry does sell a 21mm x 21mm motor bogie, but it's for 12mm gauge....

 

There is an alternative DIY kit that they supply, though, and it seems that you can build it in 21mm gauge as well....

 

Interesting, but feckin' expensive.

 

 

 

Here it is.

 

Hollywood Foundry & Steam Era Models (Black Beetle motor bogies)http://www.steameramodels.com/ will supply 21mm gauge power bogies at little extra cost if you order direct from Australia.

 

I have a 21mm gauge E Class with a Bull-Ant and an AEC railcar with Black Beetle bogies

[Weshty]

Hi all

 

Meant to get photos of the donor and model up last night but Christmas stuff got in the way. Will have them up tomorrow.

[Horsetan]

Hi all

 

Meant to get photos of the donor and model up.....

 

I'm sure they'll be worth it - and everyone will wonder why they hadn't thought of it before.

 

I was looking at Penbits, which makes P4-compatible sprung suspensions for diesel bogies. Next time I see them at a show (probably next April/May), I'll ask if they'd consider Irish diesels, especially for 21mm gauge.

[Junctionmad]

I'm sure they'll be worth it - and everyone will wonder why they hadn't thought of it before.

 

I was looking at Penbits, which makes P4-compatible sprung suspensions for diesel bogies. Next time I see them at a show (probably next April/May), I'll ask if they'd consider Irish diesels, especially for 21mm gauge.

 

Those penbits bogies look the biz.

[Horsetan]

Those penbits bogies look the biz.

 

...and they work.

 

I picked up a kit to do the Prototype Deltic, and another for the Hymek.

 

The prospect of Irish diesel sprung bogie kits is surely tempting.

[Junctionmad]

...and they work.

 

I picked up a kit to do the Prototype Deltic, and another for the Hymek.

 

The prospect of Irish diesel sprung bogie kits is surely tempting.

 

As I mentioned , I'm working on a similar idea for my Sulzer model. I currently just finished the gearbox and frame CAD so I can use my proxxon MF 50 CNC milling machine to mill out. I will be trying the " Varney " derivative of continuous sprung beam suspension , which produces an adjustable suspension system.

 

I'm still not sure about secondary Springing of the bolster , I wonder if it's needed. Obviously track undulations over the length of the loco could exceed the 1mm total springing travel available added across both bogies ( each horn block has +- .5 mm travel ) , this would cause wheel lift.

 

I'm going to try split axle power collection, hence a dead frame. Failing that, the fall back is live alternative bogies, which is typically what the US models use. ,

 

I'd be very interested in your experience with the penbit chassis

 

I'm plan to do the gearbox in delrin with a plastic two stage gear wheels with a final worm , and then carden shafts to the motor ( I'm waiting for DCC concepts ball joints to arrive )

 

What are you gong to use to motorised the penbits bogies/ chassis.

 

 

As an aside. I've noticed it's very difficult to source 40 " diesel driving wheels from UK sources as it was never used on their locos. ( even on class 68 etc ) but. Just realised that H0 (3.5mm ) 45 " wheels scale almost perfectly to 40" in 4mm , there are available from NSWL in the US and I've ordered a dozen for future projects ( spung 121 141 bogies ! ). These are 25/110 profiles so way too coarse for p4. They are also available in code 88 which is close to p4 , ( n fact a little finer then p4 )

 

If it's successful, I may offer it as a kit to interested parties. ( some assembly required, batteries not included ). The idea would be to do ABC class bogies first.

 

Delrin gearbox, delrin hornblocks, with brass bushes. , brass frames. , ultimately I could convert most of the brass into etched components.

 

It's all in the minds eye at present. The gearbox will be roughed out over Christmas break, assuming my rebuild of the Cnc controller gets finished

 

My Seig lathe is coming n the new year so that will help ( I delayed my iPad pro purchase instead !!!! )

Edited December 17, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Horsetan]

As I mentioned , I'm working on a similar idea for my Sulzer model. I currently just finished the gearbox and frame CAD so I can use my proxxon MF 50 CNC milling machine to mill out. I will be trying the " Varney " derivative of continuous sprung beam suspension , which produces an adjustable suspension system.

 

I'm still not sure about secondary Springing of the bolster , I wonder if it's needed. Obviously track undulations over the length of the loco could exceed the 1mm total springing travel available added across both bogies ( each horn block has +- .5 mm travel ) , this would cause wheel lift.

 

I think it really depends on what you think your requirements are - a scenario would be to design and build one bogie with secondary, and the other without, and then test them to see whether the secondary makes any difference. I would prefer to have secondary in 21mm gauge.

 

I'm going to try split axle power collection, hence a dead frame. Failing that, the fall back is live alternative bogies, which is typically what the US models use. ,

 

I'd be very interested in your experience with the penbit chassis

 

Penbits' system would work with Murphy Models CIE diesels since the design is effectively a cradle that wraps over the existing power bogie, and the rest of the drivetrain is generally unaffected.

 

I'm plan to do the gearbox in delrin with a plastic two stage gear wheels with a final worm , and then carden shafts to the motor ( I'm waiting for DCC concepts ball joints to arrive )

 

What are you gong to use to motorised the penbits bogies/ chassis.

 

Penbits don't do anything specific for CIE, and certainly not the Sulzer, which - being A1A+A1A - would be unlike anything they have produced before. That's why I have been looking at the Hymek bogie kit, which is the correct total wheelbase of 10'6, and wondering whether it might be modified to allow a central unpowered axle.

 

The only other alternative RTR 10'6" bogie is the Bachmann Warship. Both Heljan and Bachmann I have found to be mostly unhelpful in answering specific spares queries, mainly because I think they don't really want to help.

 

My preferred motor is invariably a big coreless one - something by Maxon or Faulhaber / Escap, which are fairly easily bought via eBay; do a search for a US-based seller called "microlocomotion", because he seems to deal in just about every size there is.

 

Gears, I don't know. I'd prefer not to have to use worms; I like low-resistance bevels and spurs, or contrate-and-pinion. You can buy the latter from Ultrascale, but their order waiting list is notoriously long, usually six months.

 

As an aside. I've noticed it's very difficult to source 40 " diesel driving wheels from UK sources as it was never used on their locos. ( even on class 68 etc ) but. Just realised that H0 (3.5mm ) 45 " wheels scale almost perfectly to 40" in 4mm , there are available from NSWL in the US and I've ordered a dozen for future projects ( spung 121 141 bogies ! ). These are 25/110 profiles so way too coarse for p4. They are also available in code 88 which is close to p4 , ( n fact a little finer then p4 )

 

RP25-88 is not finer than P4; flanges are thicker, and the tyre overall width is wider at 2.2mm or more. P4 is usually in the range 1.85 to 2mm wide.

 

A Sulzer 101 wheel is supposed to be 37" or 37.5" - 3ft 1in or 3ft 1.5in, depending on whose information you believe! AGW produces disc wheels

 

If it's successful, I may offer it as a kit to interested parties. ( some assembly required, batteries not included ). The idea would be to do ABC class bogies first.

 

Delrin gearbox, delrin hornblocks, with brass bushes. , brass frames. , ultimately I could convert most of the brass into etched components.

 

It's all in the minds eye at present. The gearbox will be roughed out over Christmas break, assuming my rebuild of the Cnc controller gets finished

 

My Seig lathe is coming n the new year so that will help ( I delayed my iPad pro purchase instead !!!! )

 

It sounds like you've got a far better-equipped workshop than the vast majority of us! Do have a look and see if you can turn out a set of miniature bevel gears or contrate-and-pinion.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Horsetan

[Junctionmad]

I think it really depends on what you think your requirements are - a scenario would be to design and build one bogie with secondary, and the other without, and then test them to see whether the secondary makes any difference. I would prefer to have secondary in 21mm gauge.

 

 

Yes I suspecta trial is useful

 

 

 

Penbits don't do anything specific for CIE, and certainly not the Sulzer, which - being A1A+A1A - would be unlike anything they have produced before. That's why I have been looking at the Hymek bogie kit, which is the correct total wheelbase of 10'6, and wondering whether it might be modified to allow a central unpowered axle.

 

in model form its easier to drive two axles together , so BO-BO or AA1 rather then A1A , thats what I will be doing

 

 

 

The only other alternative RTR 10'6" bogie is the Bachmann Warship. Both Heljan and Bachmann I have found to be mostly unhelpful in answering specific spares queries, mainly because I think they don't really want to help.

 

My preferred motor is invariably a big coreless one - something by Maxon or Faulhaber / Escap, which are fairly easily bought via eBay; do a search for a US-based seller called "microlocomotion", because he seems to deal in just about every size there is.

 

 

for DCC I prefer mashima

 

Gears, I don't know. I'd prefer not to have to use worms; I like low-resistance bevels and spurs, or contrate-and-pinion. You can buy the latter from Ultrascale, but their order waiting list is notoriously long, usually six months.

 

indeed, but a plastic worm held in a gearbox is not a bad alternative and you get great reduction

 

 

 

RP25-88 is not finer than P4; flanges are thicker, and the tyre overall width is wider at 2.2mm or more. P4 is usually in the range 1.85 to 2mm wide.

 

sorry slip of keyboard I meant USA P87 , which is their P4

 

A Sulzer 101 wheel is supposed to be 37" or 37.5" - 3ft 1in or 3ft 1.5in, depending on whose information you believe! AGW produces disc wheels

 

yes, I was referring to the GM wheels

 

It sounds like you've got a far better-equipped workshop than the vast majority of us! Do have a look and see if you can turn out a set of miniature bevel gears or contrate-and-pinion.

 

gears are a bit behind me as yet. simple turning and boring, and I have no index table anyway

[Horsetan]

.... its easier to drive two axles together , so BO-BO or AA1 rather then A1A , thats what I will be doing ...

 

I'm after having a look at the inside of the Heljan Hymek bogie gear casing. It looks like there might be room to run a central axle through. Only just, but, and I suspect it could encroach on the gear mesh.

 

Needs more thinking.

[Garfield]

Before you all go drilling holes through Heljan chassis...

 

Frateschi produce an A1A-A1A model of EMD's G12 export design, which although marketed as being a HO scale model is actually more likely to be OO. Here's a photo of the G12 body (Bo-Bo chassis version) compared to a 1:76 drawing:

 

(Photo courtesy of Donal Murray)

 

I chatted with Glenderg, who sourced a drawing of an A1A-A1A G12 and scaled it to OO. Look how it compares to the Sulzer:

 

The Frateschi locos can be bought online for around €80 including shipping. For example: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/HO-1-87-FRATESCHI-Locomotive-G-12-A1A-RFFSA-/272005336703?hash=item3f54c80e7f:g:KrcAAOSwDN1UPoo c

 

Judging by this YouTube video, it's not a bad runner, either:

 

 

I'm not sure if it's DCC ready, though, but for that price and the problem it would solve, hardwiring may be worth the effort. I have seen DCC'ed version on YouTube..

 

 

 

Edit: Testimonial from a friend who recently acquired a Bo-Bo version...

 

The performance of the Frateschi is way better than the Athearn mechanism in my 121 and that isn't bad by any means. The Brazillian is very smooth and quiet with all-wheel pick up. There is a central weight under the motor which is sufficient for my traction needs. The body also has fairly heft weights mounted in the bonnet ends which I didn't need. I imagine it has super traction with all it's weight.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Garfield

[jhb171achill]

Just a thought, and it might suit Weshty; if there's going to be a new "production run" of maybe 8 or 10 B101s, might it be worthwhile for all interested to "bulk buy" maybe half a frozen of these things, as they seem to suit so well? Postage savings.

[Horsetan]

For those who haven't encountered the SSM Sulzer kit before, this is what ye'll be getting for your money:

 

Resin bodyshell, internally braced:

 

 

Brass etch for underframe and body detailing. There is a lot of it: grilles, vents, walkways, steps, and a fair few other things:

 

^^

Note that Des has already put in openings for the bogies, but it's up to the builder as to how they are used.....

 

Castings for bogie sideframes, fuel tank and buffers. I would like to see if the buffers can be converted to sprung ones:

 

 

Four short lengths of 1.5mm brass tube which I think are meant to be finished as the cab seat columns:

 

 

Instruction sheets with an extensive decal sheet of CIE emblems and numerals attached:

 

 

^^

On my sample sheet, there is no provision for numbers 3,4 and 8, so I will have to find a "3" from somewhere else. A '9" can be fashioned by turning "6" upside down.

 

Des has said elsewhere that he no longer supplies LED packs for marker and tail lights for the Sulzer, as so few people actually installed and used them. If ye're lucky enough to get your hands on a kit from the original batch, these are the tiny LEDs (and they really are tiny), wiring and resistors that are included:

 

 

The resistors are the traditional ceramic ones, but it might be worth replacing them with the much smaller SMD equivalents if you need to save space on a PCB.

 

These are the raw materials.....

Edited December 19, 2015 by Horsetan

[Horsetan]

I managed to obtain some Heljan Hymek spare part sprues, which include the bogie gear casings:

 

 

This close-up shows the seven fixed pegs on which the worm wheel and idler spur gears revolve:

 

 

On the face of it, it looks like a new central axle can be run straight through, in the exact middle of the 10'6" wheelbase. Heljan, of course, don't provide any cogs as separate parts, so that makes the job of working out clearances just a little more difficult.

[Weshty]

Folks,

 

As promised, some Sulzer kit donor chassis photos. The cut and shutting is very straightforward, and the diecast metal responds superbly to superglueing.

 

A nice bonus is that the NEM pockets hang below the front face and are easily accessible.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Weshty

[BosKonay]

What chassis is that?

[Weshty]

A deliciously suitable one.

[Glenderg]

A deliciously suitable one.

 

 

A deliciously suitably diecast one ....

[BosKonay]

me like :)

[DiveController]

Folks,

 

As promised, some Sulzer kit donor chassis photos. The cut and shutting is very straightforward, and the diecast metal responds superbly to superglueing.

 

A nice bonus is that the NEM pockets hang below the front face and are easily accessible.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21836[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21835[/ATTACH]

 

Eh,… same question, Des, what chassis and how does it run?

[Weshty]

Again to quote Glenderg

 

"A deliciously suitably diecast one .... " and it runs like a dream.

[Horsetan]

So coy.

 

Meanwhile, the joke's on me as I measured up the SSM bogie sideframe castings, and found they'd been subtly stretched to an overall wheelbase of 46mm, rather than 42. This has caused slight consternation here, as whitemetal isn't the easiest material to cut-and-shut....

[Weshty]

A 42'coco bogie was nigh on impossible to source so I stretched it to enable a SD9 or Class 55 donor. The C55 is actually underscale, probably half way between HO and OO.

[Horsetan]

A 42'coco bogie was nigh on impossible to source so I stretched it to enable a SD9 or Class 55 donor.....

 

Ah.....that explains it.

 

Meanwhile, just to confirm the measurements:

 

Heljan Hymek:

 

 

SSM Sulzer casting:

 

 

Centre axle pilot hole drilled in Hymek casing:

 

 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Horsetan
Adding photos

[irishthump]

Folks,

 

As promised, some Sulzer kit donor chassis photos. The cut and shutting is very straightforward, and the diecast metal responds superbly to superglueing.

 

A nice bonus is that the NEM pockets hang below the front face and are easily accessible.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21836[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21835[/ATTACH]

 

Looks great!

Judging by the position on the cuts would I be right in assuming there was no need to modify the drive train?

(A big plus if that's the case!)

[Weshty]

None, provided you work with one powered bogie. Powering the second can be done with a suitable application of jiggery pokery. But irregardless, she will have 12 wheel pickup. Very handy over points.

[Garfield]

None, provided you work with one powered bogie. Powering the second can be done with a suitable application of jiggery pokery. But irregardless, she will have 12 wheel pickup. Very handy over points.

 

You can have two powered bogies and 12-wheel pick-up with this option, Des (and the wheelbase is pretty much spot-on for the prototype, too)...

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/5080-Sulzer-Kit?p=81162&viewfull=1#post81162