CIE 60s early 70s era goods wagons

[Noel]

I didn't want to drift the news thread on IRM, so separate thread here. Some pics of the wagons that would be great to be able to buy one day as quality RTR models. I know there are some suppliers of kits and low quality RTR, but it would be fab one day if high quality injection moulded fine scale models were available of some of these wagons, especially the Bulleid beat wagon and H-Vans.

 

The most numerous wagon to ever run on Irish rails and the back bone of freight from the late 50s through to the early 70s

 

These Vans were found in every siding of every station. Pick up freight when locos shunted and movements were interesting.

 

The quintessential open wagon.

 

Loose coupled non-braked pick up freight

 

Loose coupled non-braked freight

 

All copyrights to the photo links acknowledged

[Noel]

Classic Irish goods yard scene from early 70s. Photo Ciaran Cooney

 

Loose coupled, non-braked pick up freight. Trains dropped off a wagon or two at each station, and picked up one or two.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Noel

[Glenderg]

[Weshty]

Doesn't that Gort shot just shout out to be modelled? Perfect size and all.

[Georgeconna]

Look at Youghal!!, Every Saturday I drive past that place imagining the droning of 141, 121s on the turntable and the hussle an bussle of the Holiday traffic. so sad to see it as it is now.

 

I would be happy to see a unit going down there just to see the line back in action but it will never be the same.Most likely the old station building would remain fenced off cause the cracks all over it and a bus shelter put up.

[Weshty]

That's the thing George. It's great that Gort is opened up again, but it's just an antiseptic mass of galvanised steel and single track.

No freight handling, no staff, no signal cabin, no sidings. C'est la vie.

[Old Blarney]

Lovely photographs of past years and the railways as they were. Unfortunately, it is the past, and our yesterdays cannot be compared with today. Gort has a reinstated railway line and service, along with a modern station. (If one wishes to use such a term) Unfortunately, Youghal has neither of these, and I doubt I'll be around to see a reinstatement of the line from Middleton to Youghal, should it ever happen!

I hold happy memories of travelling on these two railway lines. I remember with fondness a wonderful Sunrise as the train I travelled on approached Cobh Junction in the year we celebrated Cork 800. I was travelling on The RPSI Tour that year, and got wind of a special from Youghal to Claremorris on the Sunday morning. No sleep that night. The Knock Special was due to depart for Youghal at 04.30 Hrs. Travelled on the Locomotive and watched with interest as the rust rose off the rails in clouds of dust as we passed along the line. I was not the only person to have heard of this train movement as I, and our Crew, were joined by others of our fraternity that morning.

 

Oh happy days and lovely memories.

 

As already mentioned by Dez, Gort as depicted in the photograph relating to this topic would make a wonderful Model Railway scene.

[Noel]

That's the thing George. It's great that Gort is opened up again, but it's just an antiseptic mass of galvanised steel and single track.

No freight handling, no staff, no signal cabin, no sidings. C'est la vie.

 

Its easy to forget how busy these little stations used to be with pick up goods traffic. I remember spending hours watching B&T and early ST locos shunting loose coupled stock in places like Galway yard, Newbridge, Portarlington, Gort (visiting Uncle), Waterford (home), etc. It was mesmerising with very interesting movements including signalling which I never fully understood. The constant change in pitch of the baby GMs as they patiently shunted stock, often a single wagon off a passing mixed goods train, or some times on the western lines coupled to the rear of passenger trains. It was a golden era alright and so much more interesting than push-pull and fixed rake formation. These stations were alive with activity interspersed with hours of nothing happening except for trains passing each other on loops.

 

We can't stop progress, but there is nothing stopping us modelling trains when they were interesting to operate, almost Rubik's Cube like mental agility needed by the CIE staff when shunting stock off trains into sidings in the right order. I can still hear the noises, voices, humming engines, metal to metal clinking and clacking, flanges screeching, and couplings being slung unto hooks. H&S today would never have allowed youngsters my age back then line side. Some of the CIE staff gave me amazing amount time telling yarns and explaining how it all worked, what was controlled from Dublin and what was from the local signal box, and what they could do within the station confines off the main lines, and what procedures they had to adopt to keep trains running when analog signalling systems failed.

[Noel]

Lovely photographs of past years and the railways as they were. Unfortunately, it is the past, and our yesterdays cannot be compared with today. Gort has a reinstated railway line and service, along with a modern station. (If one wishes to use such a term) Unfortunately, Youghal has neither of these, and I doubt I'll be around to see a reinstatement of the line from Middleton to Youghal, should it ever happen!

I hold happy memories of travelling on these two railway lines. I remember with fondness a wonderful Sunrise as the train I travelled on approached Cobh Junction in the year we celebrated Cork 800. I was travelling on The RPSI Tour that year, and got wind of a special from Youghal to Claremorris on the Sunday morning. No sleep that night. The Knock Special was due to depart for Youghal at 04.30 Hrs. Travelled on the Locomotive and watched with interest as the rust rose off the rails in clouds of dust as we passed along the line. I was not the only person to have heard of this train movement as I, and our Crew, were joined by others of our fraternity that morning.

 

Oh happy days and lovely memories.

 

As already mentioned by Dez, Gort as depicted in the photograph relating to this topic would make a wonderful Model Railway scene.

 

 

Old Blarney your evocative description makes one almost feel like they were there. Is there still a plan to evaluate the feasibility of reopening the Youghal line?

[Noel]

Doesn't that Gort shot just shout out to be modelled? Perfect size and all.

 

Has it been modelled? http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2669-The-Gort-Layout-at-The-B-N-S-Kinvara

[Mayner]

Its easy to forget how busy these little stations used to be with pick up goods traffic. I remember spending hours watching B&T and early ST locos shunting loose coupled stock in places like Galway yard, Newbridge, Portarlington, Gort (visiting Uncle), Waterford (home), etc. It was mesmerising with very interesting movements including signalling which I never fully understood. The constant change in pitch of the baby GMs as they patiently shunted stock, often a single wagon off a passing mixed goods train, or some times on the western lines coupled to the rear of passenger trains. It was a golden era alright and so much more interesting than push-pull and fixed rake formation. These stations were alive with activity interspersed with hours of nothing happening except for trains passing each other on loops.

 

We can't stop progress, but there is nothing stopping us modelling trains when they were interesting to operate, almost Rubik's Cube like mental agility needed by the CIE staff when shunting stock off trains into sidings in the right order. I can still hear the noises, voices, humming engines, metal to metal clinking and clacking, flanges screeching, and couplings being slung unto hooks. H&S today would never have allowed youngsters my age back then line side. Some of the CIE staff gave me amazing amount time telling yarns and explaining how it all worked, what was controlled from Dublin and what was from the local signal box, and what they could do within the station confines off the main lines, and what procedures they had to adopt to keep trains running when analog signalling systems failed.

 

 

I think few people under the age of 50 would have much of a re-collection of pick up goods operation or loose formation passenger trains with the majority of Irish modellers seem to focus on the 80s &90s era judging by the locos and stock produced by MM and the workshop projects that appears on this board.

 

The exception appears to be the GNR maybe because the railway had a much more positive image or maybe railway modelling was a more established hobby in Northern Ireland than the South, certainly GNR locos and stock appears to be a popular subject for modelling projects among Northern modellers. Provincial Wagons have built on this support with a good collection of high quality custom built and re-livered Dapol wagons, including the all important IRCH cattle & standard covered wagon the GNR equivalent of the CIE/GSR K & H and the distinctive GNR goods brake.

 

Another factor is that Irish & UK modellers seem to be less interested in operation than our American cousins

 

Ironically my first exposure to shunting at an MRSI exhibition in the early 70s where the late Harry Connaughton was shunting a collection of esquisite scratchbuilt O Gauge passenger and goods stock with a pair of T2 locomotives. Tellingly I seemed to be the only person that was interested most people were focused on the big club tail layout.

[jhb171achill]

Classic Irish goods yard scene from early 70s. Photo Ciaran Cooney

 

Loose coupled, non-braked pick up freight. Trains dropped off a wagon or two at each station, and picked up one or two.

 

 

 

Just a correction; copyright is Barry's. The photo is from "Rails Through the West".

[DiveController]

I didn't want to drift the news thread on IRM, so separate thread here. Some pics of the wagons that would be great to be able to buy one day as quality RTR models. I know there are some suppliers of kits and low quality RTR, but it would be fab one day if high quality injection moulded fine scale models were available of some of these wagons, especially the Bulleid beat wagon and H-Vans.

 

The most numerous wagon to ever run on Irish rails and the back bone of freight from the late 50s through to the early 70s

 

These Vans were found in every siding of every station. Pick up freight when locos shunted and movements were interesting.

 

The quintessential open wagon.

 

Loose coupled non-braked pick up freight

 

Loose coupled non-braked freight

 

All copyrights to the photo links acknowledged

Great thread, Noel. Very interested in this era also. Love all those previous threads of a similar nature by jhb171achill. I'm not sure if it's realized how much interest there might be in this era. I think there would be huge interest if more rtf locos were available. Yes, I know there are options but not like heading into the model store and picking your MM model etc.

Edited September 10, 2016 by DiveController

[Noel]

It depends on the demographic age profile of today's Irish market, nostalgia memory, etc. Anecdotally one might be forgiving for making the 'generalised' assumption that the dominant age profile in terms of numbers involved in the hobby are 60+, post mortgage, children left home, disposable income, etc. (ie very crudely observed by attendance at shows, swap meets, etc). But as stated that's just a crude and highly generalisec observation. It's also an age profile that is not as 'social media' hungry. A child in the toy segment today probably just remembers Darts, Luas, 2x00, 22ks and 201 hauled mk4s, or containers, or timber, etc.

 

Photos like these are seen by kids as the olden days, when traffic lights were black and white, cars were black, and their great grand parents may have lived in areas without electricity or running water.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Noel

[Junctionmad]

The whole 70-78 transition era is fascinating

[Noel]

IRRS 1967

 

This fabulous bit of film footage shows delivery livery 121 hauling mixed rakes of coaches in B&T and Flying snail green, A class crawling with loose coupled goods wagon. What a fab clip and look how petty the stations are maintained and landscaped. I know its been posted here before but it kind of relates to the thread. Pure glorious nostalgia. Looking forward to MM0121 later this winter or spring.

 

Look at the speed the 121 passes over Carrig viaduct. 5m50s into clip Sulzer hauling mixed loose coupled goods train. Goods traffic back then was so varied and interesting.

 

 

There are plenty more IRRS videos here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqUhJsrdk4XThg8kGENaufA/videos

 

Some fab sugar beat trains which were longest goods trains in Ireland.

 

Whoever made these films deserves the gratitude of rail fans and modellers. They are pure gold.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Noel

[Kirley]

Great footage but the detail you hope to see is not there compared to today's digital reproduction. A sign of the time but we are lucky to have at least this.

[Mayner]

Interesting the number wooden bodies (Irish Railway Clearing House) opens and vans that appear in both videos. The westbound double headed good headed by a B101& C201 Class with a luggage van cut in in front of the guards van is an interesting one.

 

Goods traffic was heaviest between Waterford & Dungarvan with an out and back trip working from Waterford in addition to the daily through goods train. Perhaps the C Class dropped off to shunt the yard at Dungarvan and work a train back to Waterford while the B101 continued on to Fermoy and Mallow.

 

It would be interesting to see if there is enough demand to crowd fund an injection moulded KN cattle wagon or a 20T CIE brake van potentially the largest gaps in Irish loose coupled goods stock.

 

Provincial Wagons produce reasonably good resin models of the corrugated open, IRCH standard van, IRCH short cattle wagon and have plans to produce a H Van. Good quality kits are available from SSM for the 30t brake and IRCH standard open, while its reasonably simple to kit bash a GNR 16T Cement Van, a H Van or a Pallet Van from the Parkside-Dundas kits. The CIE standard KN cattle wagon looks totally different from the British rtr or kit wagons

[Junctionmad]

It depends on the demographic age profile of today's Irish market, nostalgia memory, etc. Anecdotally one might be forgiving for making the 'generalised' assumption that the dominant age profile in terms of numbers involved in the hobby are 60+, post mortgage, children left home, disposable income, etc. (ie very crudely observed by attendance at shows, swap meets, etc). But as stated that's just a crude and highly generalisec observation. It's also an age profile that is not as 'social media' hungry. A child in the toy segment today probably just remembers Darts, Luas, 2x00, 22ks and 201 hauled mk4s, or containers, or timber, etc.

 

Photos like these are seen by kids as the olden days, when traffic lights were black and white, cars were black, and their great grand parents may have lived in areas without electricity or running water.

 

From attending the odd club and exhibitions etc , I'd say the demographic that's now most prevalent seems to be 40+ , with minorities in the 60s. This is possibly due to the cost of railway modelling these days.

 

I'm the same age as Noel , but I'd didn't start haunting railways till about 73 , and as I lived in the country and my dad was car mad , we rarely came in contact with railways before I started traveling on them myself. I do remember an early trip to Waterford good shed ( the new one ) when H vans etc were in common use. ( and watching the shunting ) , but in reality all my detailed recollections were from the start of the super train era and while the sidings were full of laid up vans , the main trains were block or unit trains.

 

Personally , I prefer the immediate post Black and Tan period, the era of 1975+ freight modernisation very interesting , primarily because you had an explosion of interesting single purpose freight wagons . Equally that era began to be seriously chronicled by photographers an issue that bedevils previous eras in Irish railway history. My only regret was , that life pressures , meant I didnt run round the country in the late 90s , with my first digital camera , before all of it was destroyed from 2005 onwards.

 

I do mourn the current generation of young people who will have little or no variety to model, can't see the attraction in the post 2010 scene personally at all.

[Mayner]

I don't know if its different in Ireland and the UK but model railways seems to be more of a hobby for the older generation or maybe older people have more time and money for the hobby.

 

The majority members of our local garden railway group are over 50 with similar demographics among American modellers in Auckland. Our identity and personal interests are pretty tied up with our experiences in our formative years and like our parents its difficult for a Baby Boomer to relate Alpha or Generation Z culture, tastes in music, fashion and ralways.

 

In the 50s and 60s many people thought the change from steam to diesel and large scale line closures would kill the hobby, today Ireland's railways are probably in a better way than they ever were in terms of sheer intensity of service and the physical condition of rolling stock and infrastructure. Modelling a section of the contempory Cork or Belfast line would be more challenging than the 70s and 80s as apart from the 071 & 201 Class locos practically all the rolling stock would have to be custom built or built from scratch

[minister_for_hardship]

I do mourn the current generation of young people who will have little or no variety to model, can't see the attraction in the post 2010 scene personally at all.

 

Doesn't stop them re-imagining the past. I very much doubt many that indulge in say, WW2 military modelling were knocking around back then.

 

The present scene doesn't inspire me either. Neatly demarked car parks, soulless modern buildings and structures made as ugly as possible with indiscriminate use of galvanised steel barriers and palisade fencing. Little or no activity between trains to speak of.

[Noel]

From attending the odd club and exhibitions etc , I'd say the demographic that's now most prevalent seems to be 40+ , with minorities in the 60s. This is possibly due to the cost of railway modelling these days.

 

I'm the same age as Noel , but I'd didn't start haunting railways till about 73 , and as I lived in the country and my dad was car mad , we rarely came in contact with railways before I started traveling on them myself. I do remember an early trip to Waterford good shed ( the new one ) when H vans etc were in common use. ( and watching the shunting ) , but in reality all my detailed recollections were from the start of the super train era and while the sidings were full of laid up vans , the main trains were block or unit trains.

 

Personally , I prefer the immediate post Black and Tan period, the era of 1975+ freight modernisation very interesting , primarily because you had an explosion of interesting single purpose freight wagons . Equally that era began to be seriously chronicled by photographers an issue that bedevils previous eras in Irish railway history. My only regret was , that life pressures , meant I didnt run round the country in the late 90s , with my first digital camera , before all of it was destroyed from 2005 onwards.

 

I do mourn the current generation of young people who will have little or no variety to model, can't see the attraction in the post 2010 scene personally at all.

 

Yes we all have our own unique life experiences and memories to call on. As a youngster I travelled most on trains during the 1960s finishing in the early 70s, and then again for work in the mid 1980s, so our experiential eras just overlapped. I do vividly remember that change over period where 'modern' rolling stock started to appear and the rakes and rakes of sugar beat wagons, vans and other loose coupled stock laid up in nearly every siding in the country. Pick up freight wagons were still in operation in 1974 when I used to visit the local station in Newbridge and watch them uncoupling a single wagon from a goods train waiting in the loop while passenger trains past, and then roll it by man power into the goods shed for the local deliveries that day.

 

The other issue for me was 'toy trains' in the 1960s were inevitably either British passenger steam trains or steam hauled loose coupled British goods wagons, so I grew up with the concept of shunting wagons, pick up freight, and lots of operations arranging train formations, steam engine run arounds, turn tables, at the end of each movement, all requiring lost of interesting track formations and lots of point switching, etc, so todays fixed formation push-pull DMU passenger trains that just go back and forth seem very limited to operate, and fixed rake freight formations less interesting to operate.

 

I remember as a child getting a train set with two container flats and a few containers and 'spoiled brat' being secretly rather disappointed with the uniformity of a container train compared to a mixed goods train with vans, open wagons with all manner of loads, oil tankers, cable drums, steel flats, salt vans, grain wagons, coal, cattle, conflate, etc.

 

As you say modernisation from 1974 onwards was swift and very interesting in its own new way. The sugar beat trains from my memory back then seemed the longest freight trains and most common.

 

CIE Freight Modernisation

[Noel]

. . .

 

In the 50s and 60s many people thought the change from steam to diesel and large scale line closures would kill the hobby, today Ireland's railways are probably in a better way than they ever were in terms of sheer intensity of service and the physical condition of rolling stock and infrastructure. Modelling a section of the contempory Cork or Belfast line would be more challenging than the 70s and 80s as apart from the 071 & 201 Class locos practically all the rolling stock would have to be custom built or built from scratch

 

Thats very true John. From a modelling point of view many smaller stations no longer even have sidings only passing loops on single track lines, so operationally trains simply pass through or just stop for a few minutes. In relation to running 'contemporary' trains, in the old days one simply repainted UK model toys in Irish livery and childhood imaginations happily saw them as CIE. Standards have risen so as you say custom/scratch seems the only way to run a 22k back and forth like a yo-yo, but a 201 hauled mk4 set may seem more interesting even if it is just another form of yo-yo, but at least with a growling GM. We are blessed with good passenger model rolling stock from 60s, through to 90s, but a dream way back when a Hornby CIE liveried Hymek pulled BR Mk2a's in supertrain livery.

[Noel]

Doesn't stop them re-imagining the past. I very much doubt many that indulge in say, WW2 military modelling were knocking around back then.

 

The present scene doesn't inspire me either. Neatly demarked car parks, soulless modern buildings and structures made as ugly as possible with indiscriminate use of galvanised steel barriers and palisade fencing. Little or no activity between trains to speak of.

 

+1

 

As you say progress doesn't stop the imagination modelling the past, whatever version of the past we remember.

[Junctionmad]

as apart from the 071 & 201 Class locos practically all the rolling stock would have to be custom built or built from

 

At least they won't have to scratch build a lot of stock. !

[jhb171achill]

I always think accuracy of goods stock makes or breaks many a layout based in any era. Much is concentrated on locos and coaches, but all too frequently the goods stock is very much in the "repainted Hymek" league.

 

Three is much information on here about the correct ways to depict non-passenger stock, and you've the likes of Provincial's (and others) wagons on sale now too. All good.

 

Just avoid the black chassis and cream goods van balconies and ye are grand.....

[GSR 800]

I always think accuracy of goods stock makes or breaks many a layout based in any era. Much is concentrated on locos and coaches, but all too frequently the goods stock is very much in the "repainted Hymek" league.

 

Three is much information on here about the correct ways to depict non-passenger stock, and you've the likes of Provincial's (and others) wagons on sale now too. All good.

 

Just avoid the black chassis and cream goods van balconies and ye are grand.....

I would hardly call my stock accurate, but I do agree having the proper stock gives a layout that edge.

provincial wagons and SSM have brought up the standard a great degree

Alas tis not easy being a teenage Irish railway modeller...

[DiveController]

Moved this from Noel's paintshop thread where it was an aside

So, exceptions.....

 

At least two, and possibly three, (fitted) "H" vans were standard carriage green with black chassis, for use as mail vans on Tralee-Mallow trains.

 

Finally found one (that I had seen before and did't realize the significance of it at the time). 18829 in the light? green, black chassis, some letters under the number likely P&T and something else, illegible, Limerick, c. 1962. It's not mine to post unfortunately. As JHB said, he has photos to post in an upcoming book

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Dive, it was the post-1955 green (as seen on A & C class locos, laminates, etc). The lettering below the number I am not sure about - but it may be something like "only to run between Mallow (or Cork?) and Tralee" or "7 tons" or something like that. The P&T logo or initials would probably be more likely to appear on an actual TPO.

[Mayner]

There is an undated photo of a light green H Van hiding behind Sambo at Inchacore Works in Irish Railways in Colour a Second Glance" Tom Ferris 1995. Standard un-fitted H Vans 19358 & 19613 are clearly visible in the background in all over mid grey scheme.

 

As far as I recall the 1st batch of fitted H Vans were painted green to run in passenger trains. Apart from P&T some vans were allocated to specific traffic flows including Lamb Bros fruit traffic from Donabate to Amiens Street.

[flange lubricator]

Here's a link of a picture of one at Limerick

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/photographs/archive/380/CH/CH06463C.jpg

 

note the round handbrake wheel and brake blocks on the outside of the wheels

[jhb171achill]

Interesting, John, I didn't know that.

 

The markings below the number look like (possibly) the weight markings of tons, hundredweights and quarters: "T C Q"

 

(Was it "quarters"? The "Q" doesn't seem to download into the grey memory....)

[DiveController]

Interesting, John, I didn't know that.

 

The markings below the number look like (possibly) the weight markings of tons, hundredweights and quarters: "T C Q"

 

(Was it "quarters"? The "Q" doesn't seem to download into the grey memory....)

Spot on, jb. Two stone or quarter of 112 lbs

[jhb171achill]

I've seen a pic of an AEC set somewhere - from memory either Wisht Caark or the DSER - trailing two "H" vans.