From the Catacombs

[jhb171achill]

This is a puzzle as it appears nowhere in Senior’s notes.

Location and date unknown, beyond GNR and late 1950s, but following discussion here appears to be a weed spray train.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by jhb171achill

[airfixfan]

35 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

This is a puzzle as it appears nowhere in Senior’s notes. Thus I do not know where it is or when.

I strongly suspect, though, that it is the lifting train on the Banbridge - Knockmore Junction line about 1958.

 

Looks more like a weed killer train to me?

[jhb171achill]

That is quite possible, airfixfan, though if so it's not the normal one.

If it IS a weedspray, it's going to be somewhere on the INW line.

I'm actually thinking you're probably right.

[Midland Man]

Is there a barrel behind the two middle men?

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Is there a barrel behind the two middle men?

Possibly - hard to be 100% certain.

[jhb171achill]

Stations, and a question.

The first needs no introduction - Ballinamore in GSR days. 

The second is the short-lived Recess Hotel platform on the Clifden line. This came from an old out-of-print book in the history of Galway. I have it ready to go into the Clifden book but I need a much better quality copy, ideally the negative source.

It does not appear in listings for the Lawrence / Welch collections. 

Has anyone of the historical community here got any idea where at least a better copy might be?

[Midland Man]

National library or the the Royal Dublin society may have a copy. Never seen that pic before. Drove by the quarry in December last year and tried to look for it but no success.

[Irishswissernie]

On 5/16/2020 at 11:06 AM, jhb171achill said:

That is quite possible, airfixfan, though if so it's not the normal one.

If it IS a weedspray, it's going to be somewhere on the INW line.

I'm actually thinking you're probably right.

Its the 6 wheel wagon in this weed-killing train, Barrel at the far end and a 'hut' at this end.

[Midland Man]

Harry Mulholland would have the answer. His model of Knocklong juntion had a model of a weed train and when his layout was dismantled the model was bought (or given do not know the whole story) to Tony ragg whitch he still uses today at shows. If you want to sea the engines look for his layout at shows. It should not be missed.

[jhb171achill]

Certainly looks like it, Ernie - however - while clearly it's an old six-wheeled coach chassis, the side showing on your pic appears to have still got three doorsteps, whereas none are visible on the original photo above. Therefore, unless what looks like steps on your pic are actually not, then that leaves the possibility that either its a slightly different vehicle (which I doubt), or there were only steps left on one side (more likely).

[Irishswissernie]

I think that you are seeing what appear to be steps but its the other rail, the steps are quite indistinct , I can make out one under the 'shack' door. I've done an enlargment but I only have the original scan to work off.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, now I'm looking at it on the "big" computer rather than the ipad, that is very clear.

Thus, the mystery is solved. It is very definitely a weedspray train. But where!

[Midland Man]

The Derry road?

[jhb171achill]

May 1950, York Road.

Yeah, it’s “just a Jeep”.

Look closer! What’s particularly interesting about this picture of No. 2?

 

[Galteemore]

You can glimpse where the ‘ C C ‘ of ‘ NCC’ was painted ? 

[murrayec]

3 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

You can glimpse where the ‘ C C ‘ of ‘ NCC’ was painted ? 

I was thinking it might be those dark squares on the side.

Eoin

[Galteemore]

That’s my thought Eoin - looks like a quick relivery as I think the lining is still NCC style rather than full UTA style.

[Garfield]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Look closer! What’s particularly interesting about this picture of No. 2?

Well, it's the right way up for a start... 

[Midland Man]

If the CC is marked wil here the black dots are the UTA logo is where the N is. Was number 2 the only WT class painted in UTA green like the NCC 4-4-0s in 1950/52 or was that a different engine.

[jhb171achill]

33 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

That’s my thought Eoin - looks like a quick relivery as I think the lining is still NCC style rather than full UTA style.

Correct!

 

39 minutes ago, murrayec said:

I was thinking it might be those dark squares on the side.

Eoin

Correct!

 

It's still in its original postwar LMS lining.

The first batch of "jeeps" were delivered in this LMS NCC style, with block letters "N C C" when the UTA crest and the two black paint patches are. The later ones, in the 50-series, were only ever in UTA livery.

Here, No. 2 still has the single straw-beige coloured line with maroon outside it. But the "N C C" has been painted out and a new UTA crest put on.

I am unaware of any other picture of this happening, as apart from the rapid application of the crests to navy & cream GNR railcars in 1959, the UTA seemed to make a good job of properly repainting locos, even if they didn't look after them quite as well after that.

4 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

If the CC is marked wil here the black dots are the UTA logo is where the N is. Was number 2 the only WT class painted in UTA green like the NCC 4-4-0s in 1950/52 or was that a different engine.

None were ever painted into UTA green as such - the UTA loco livery was always black - however - what you may mean (I'm guessing?) is the short-lived experimental liveries about that time? "Jeep" No. 5 very briefly had an experimental green about 1952, but it was far removed from the standard UTA green. One of the 2.6.0 "Moguls" was given it too. Apparently, it was similar to the (completely non-authentic) lightish mid-green on the BCDR loco (No. 30) in Cultra. It didn't last - a "proper" coat of lined black soon followed.

No. 2, above, was always black.

Edited May 18, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Midland Man]

The experimental green was the one I was talking about. I need to make me self more clearer. A 4-4-0 tank was painte in it as well. @Dunluce Castle I beleive made a model or at least had a model in the green. Is there any pics of the engine in the livery.

[airfixfan]

There is a picture in Locos of the NCC book taken about the same time of 4 stating that it had the NCC letters painted over as well.

Edited May 18, 2020 by airfixfan

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Midland Man said:

The experimental green was the one I was talking about. I need to make me self more clearer. A 4-4-0 tank was painted in it as well. @Dunluce Castle I beleive made a model or at least had a model in the green. Is there any pics of the engine in the livery.

I'm unaware of any 4.4.0s getting the green treatment.....? Must delve..............

[Midland Man]

On 1/24/2015 at 12:10 PM, Dunluce Castle said:

Hello Gentlemen,

 

Mock exams are over and I have about a month of freedom now until the next exams are up, but for the past few slow months I've been working on this, it's a 2P conversion into a NCC U2 class, one of the early ones with extended cab roof, and she is in UTA experimental olive Green livery, I've used railmatch paints and lining transfers for the lining, even tho I did buy a lining pen it wasn't very successful so I'll need more practise with it, but until then it's transfers for now. Only 1 U2 class was painted in this livery and it was very short lived, the other 2 locos that received experimental green were a mogul and jeep, all 3 locos done in differnt shades of green. The loco is now ready to go back to it's original owner.

Sorry for the poor quality of pics, dunno what's up with the camera.

 

Many thanks

Nelson

Here is his model.....

 

[murrayec]

4 hours ago, Garfield said:

Well, it's the right way up for a start... 

He is getting good at this- there's not been an upside down one in the whole thread

Eoin

[Broithe]

31 minutes ago, murrayec said:

He is getting good at this- there's not been an upside down one in the whole thread

Eoin

I think he's been hacked - or abducted by aliens.

[DERAILED]

On 5/17/2020 at 12:16 PM, jhb171achill said:

Stations, and a question.

The first needs no introduction - Ballinamore in GSR days. 

The second is the short-lived Recess Hotel platform on the Clifden line. This came from an old out-of-print book in the history of Galway. I have it ready to go into the Clifden book but I need a much better quality copy, ideally the negative source.

It does not appear in listings for the Lawrence / Welch collections. 

Has anyone of the historical community here got any idea where at least a better copy might be?

 

Never seen a photograph of the Halt before. The strange angle of the photograph makes it seem like the line is blocked by a landslide - so much so that I had to look it up on the Geohive site to make sure the hotel platform wasn't on a Curragh siding style branch!  Anyway, I assume you will be including Jotter's postcard of the Hotel in your book? I have a spare copy if needed. 

 

[jhb171achill]

I have a copy of that somewhere, Derailed, yes! Thank you anyway!

[Lambeg man]

With regard to Dunluce Castle's model, there is a colour photograph in "Steam Locomotives of the UTA" of No. 90 in the 'experimental green ' livery. It is dated 1950.

I quote from "NCC Saga":

So in August 1948 the first 2-6-4 tank to be overhauled, 5, was given a coat of apple green. A month later the first mogul, 90, appeared in a similar shade...... and finally 80, pride of Larne shed, was turned out in olive green, lined out in yellow and red.

In the photograph No. 90 has no lettering or crest on the tender, which is not surprising as the NCC at this time was not yet part of the UTA. I would therefore suggest that the other two engines would equally have had no lettering or crest on their tenders. 'Mac' Arnold suggests these experiments with a form of 'green' livery was due to the NIRTB having green buses and that the UTA was simply an extension of the road company. However in August 1948 the NCC was actually part of the Railway Executive (British Railways) and I would suggest that the green liveries were applied to these 3 locomotives as this was the primary colour that British Railways had adopted, I think I am correct in saying, about the same time for their express passenger locomotives. However I have no hard factual record that this was the case.   

[jhb171achill]

I think that what would become BR hadn't yet formalised a livery either, so they were all experimental.

The other two painted green would not have had crests either; the Mogul had "U T" on its tender - I've seen a b & w pic of it. It must be assumed No. 5 did too.

In any event, these liveries were repainted apparently after only some weeks, to standard UTA black lined in red & straw, At that stage only, the UTA crest as seen on the pic was added.

I had forgotten about the 4.4.0, right enough.

[StevieB]

Am I right in thinking that the UTA had to buy the NCC from the railway executive?

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, StevieB said:

Am I right in thinking that the UTA had to buy the NCC from the railway executive?

Stephen

Yes - either that or the BTC directly - not BR, into whose stable it never went.

[Dunluce Castle]

Thank you for the tag Midland Man, and to JHB for posting that picture of WT No2, it really is the bees kness! 

With regards to my model, I don't have it now as it was a commission, but I based it off the quote from "UTA in colour". It states that U2 No80 was painted in olive green... What shade? I'm unsure, so I felt that a dark olive green colour would suit best and applied the letters "UT" as they were seen on some engines during the early years of the UTA. 

[jhb171achill]

It was a really nice job, Nelson. How is your layout going?

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

the Mogul had "U T" on its tender

 

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

In any event, these liveries were repainted apparently after only some weeks, to standard UTA black lined in red & straw

Hi JHB,

Surely if No. 90 was repainted in the 'green' livery (surely the jury is out on what the actual 'green' was) in 1948, it was in this livery for more than a "some weeks".

The photo of the tender below was allegedly taken in 1950.

 

1 hour ago, StevieB said:

Am I right in thinking that the UTA had to buy the NCC from the railway executive?

  The Northern Ireland government paid the Railway Executive £2,668.00 for the NCC system.

25 minutes ago, Dunluce Castle said:

What shade? I'm unsure, so I felt that a dark olive green colour would suit best and applied the letters "UT" as they were seen on some engines during the early years of the UTA. 

Irrespective of the shade of green, still a cracking model DC.