From the Catacombs

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

I think even Hornby did white wheels at one stage.....

Well, it's Hornby that I blame for the obsession with having wagons of all eras, in all liveries, with a black chassis, or ironwork picked out in black! Sure they also did model steam locos in yellow..........!

On 6/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, Midland Man said:

Fabulous phot @jhb171achill

609s tender looks quite small and old. Did it ever get a new one?

Not sure - they would swop them about.

On 6/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, Midland Man said:

Fabulous phot @jhb171achill

609s tender looks quite small and old. Did it ever get a new one?

Not sure - they would swop them about.

[jhb171achill]

Shillelagh, mid 1930s.

(H C A Beaumont)

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by jhb171achill

[KMCE]

Excellent photo of Shillelagh, and a rare view looking up the line.

Any more of these by any chance??

Ken

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, KMCE said:

Excellent photo of Shillelagh, and a rare view looking up the line.

Any more of these by any chance??

Ken

Nothing more on that line, Ken, and indeed not all that many off the DSER. As he travelled back and forth to school on the Harcourt Street Line, hung about H St. at weekends trainspotting with his friend, and saw things Inchicore-based as more "exotic" - and was not at all a prolific photographer - he saw the DSER as more "routine" and took very few pics anywhere on it! I will have a look now and see what I have, though. 

[jhb171achill]

Mid 1930s, DSER-side GSR Dublin suburban traffic with a "Bandon Tank". I may have posted this before - leading coach is  DSER third, not sure what the others are. Second one could be GSWR or DSER - can't get a decent look at it. You'll notice another train disappearing into the distance.

Second pic is a view of the 1st class section in an AEC railcar on the Harcourt Street line.

Third one is an engine in a state of indecency........

(All H C A Beaumont)

[KMCE]

427 was the motive power for the DSER armoured train - not looking so dangerous there though!

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, KMCE said:

427 was the motive power for the DSER armoured train - not looking so dangerous there though!

Indeed! She was under repair there - I’m guessing he took that picture in the mid or late 30s.

[DERAILED]

19 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Shillelagh, mid 1930s.

(H C A Beaumont)

 

I was last in Shillelagh in the mid/late 1970s and the only thing missing was the signal cabin. The stone built goods store was in good nick and the massive timber loco shed was intact but the doors were bolted so I didn't get to see inside. A wagon loading gauge survived sticking up in the meadow that then existed in the area behind the signal cabin.

[Lambeg man]

23 hours ago, StevieB said:

The railcar photo is quite a delight. The two railcars are from the 700 and 900 series  but what is the intermediate coach?

The intermediate is a Brake/Second trailer with a train heating boiler in the Guard's van area. It is probably number c114n which was still in GNR 'Railcar' livery in July 1961. John Langford photographed the same set at Macmine Junction travelling in the 'down' direction on 9/6/1962.

[jhb171achill]

31 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

The intermediate is a Brake/Second trailer with a train heating boiler in the Guard's van area. It is probably number c114n which was still in GNR 'Railcar' livery in July 1961. John Langford photographed the same set at Macmine Junction travelling in the 'down' direction on 9/6/1962.

So it’s not just LIKE 114 at Whitehead - it IS 114 at Whitehead!

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, DERAILED said:

I was last in Shillelagh in the mid/late 1970s and the only thing missing was the signal cabin. The stone built goods store was in good nick and the massive timber loco shed was intact but the doors were bolted so I didn't get to see inside. A wagon loading gauge survived sticking up in the meadow that then existed in the area behind the signal cabin.

Any idea what state it is in now?

[KMCE]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Any idea what state it is in now?

I was up that way maybe 10 years back to get some information with a view to building a model. 

The station house is still there and in use as a private residence. 

 

The goods shed is also still there and was in good condition.

 

Water tank - difficult to get a decent shot as it is further up from the station house towards where the turntable would have been.

 

Still haven't ruled this one out as a layout, but I have a more interesting layout closer to home in the pipeline!!

 

Ken

 

[jhb171achill]

Actually, Shillelagh would make a TRULY fascinating layout. It’s small, so perfect as a small layout terminus, but also unique as the one and only true DWWR / DSER branch line.

A perfect home for some of your stock, Ken.

[KMCE]

Agreed & I have got to a point where I have a truncated layout in 21mm to fit two boards 1200 x 600 (4' x 2' in old money), with a traverser on the side.

Plan was to use the engine shed as a view blocker for the main line and headshunt.  Plenty of room up the back for cattle wagons, and it has both a locomotive and wagon turntable (as per prototype), so yes would make for an excellent model.  Only 7 points!!

Ken

[jhb171achill]

That's superb. A template for a truly unique layout.

[David Holman]

That looks a very promising design and seems to have all the key elements of an Irish branch terminus

[jhb171achill]

Three GNR coaches at Amiens St., 1963/4.

For modellers, this triple-liveried pic also shows clearly GNR 3rd class upholstery.

(H C A Beaumont)

[murphaph]

Can someone explain to a clueless individual how the GNR coaches ended up in three liveries? Just a delay in repainting them after CIE got their share or is 135 UTA property or something? Trying to learn a bit more about this period of our railways

[Galteemore]

Just inertia really. It was not uncommon in these days for various mixes and matches to be seen. Quite apart from the GNR liveries, CIE was also changing its livery around this time. So it took a long time to achieve uniformity. The railways were also shrinking in size at this time - which would result in a long term need for less stock. So older and less useful vehicles which were likely to be culled would probably not be candidates for repainting. The blue and cream livery would also indicate that this GN coach had probably been repainted fairly recently anyway. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Galteemore

[murphaph]

Did the blue and cream GNR coaches see any action on the Cork mainline or did they stay working their old haunts?

[Northroader]

5 hours ago, KMCE said:

I was up that way maybe 10 years back to get some information with a view to building a model. 

The station house is still there and in use as a private residence. 

 

The goods shed is also still there and was in good condition.

 

Water tank - difficult to get a decent shot as it is further up from the station house towards where the turntable would have been.

 

Still haven't ruled this one out as a layout, but I have a more interesting layout closer to home in the pipeline!!

 

Ken

 

Do you reckon there should have been a DWWR branch to Glendalough?

[Galteemore]

10 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Did the blue and cream GNR coaches see any action on the Cork mainline or did they stay working their old haunts?

Would need to trawl the photo archives but wouldn’t be surprised eg Curragh trains

[Mayner]

Economics the Irish railways tended to re-paint locos and stock following an overhaul or repair, this was during an era before the idea of subsidising loss making public transport was accepted and CIE was expected to make a profit or at least break even on it road, rail canal and sea operations (Aran Island ferry)

Establishing and maintaining a uniform corporate image become irrelevant when a company has a monopoly of rail transport services.

The UTA appeared to be more consistent than CIE in applying its corporate image repainting GNR steam locos, railcars and coaching stock, some GNR steam locos were still running in GNR blue on main line passenger services up to the ending of GNR steam operations with the closure of the Derry Road and Newry Warrenpoint branch in 1965.

The CIE BUT railcar sets used on the Belfast and Dublin-Rosslare trains in the early 60s had a real rainbow effect with driving cars painted in GNR Blue and Cream and the new CIE Black and Tan scheme and trailer coaches potentially in GNR Mahogany, Blue and Cream, CIE Green and Black and Tan potentially hauling CIE Luggage vans in silver, CIE Green or Black and Tan.

The BUT railcars were introduced in 57-8 and would not have become due for overhaul re-painting until the early 1960s, GNR BUT railcar trailer stock would have dated from the 1930-40s and could potentially have run in the two GNR schemes, CIE late 1950s green and black and tan as coaches went through the overhaul and re-painting process during the 1950s and 60s.

[KMCE]

18 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Do you reckon there should have been a DWWR branch to Glendalough?

It would be hard to see the economics of running a rail line to Glendalough, particularly in DWWR times.  Whilst there may be some argument for tourism, the low population & lack of industry would make this route quite uneconomic. 

Knowing the landscape around Wicklow, any line up to Glendalough would have been difficult.  Glendalough is 2,300ft above sea level, and it's hard to see a route through the hills and valleys without recourse to tunneling & viaducts with its associated costs.

DWWR were struggling to get the line through to Shillelagh (210ft ASL) by following the valleys and bringing in as many villages / towns en-route to enhance the economics.  A further indicator as to the limited DWWR resources is that the Shillelagh branch was supposed to continue on to meet up with Tullow, however this never came to pass. 

 

Notwithstanding the above, that would have been a very scenic route!

Ken

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Do you reckon there should have been a DWWR branch to Glendalough?

Would have been very nice and very scenic, but there's nothing up there which would have made a railway line even close to being economically viable, unfortunately. Given the topography it would have cost a fortune to build, too, and would probably have needed quite powerful engines to deal with very severe gradients!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

Did the blue and cream GNR coaches see any action on the Cork mainline or did they stay working their old haunts?

They mostly stayed on their old haunts at first, though one wooden coach ended up briefly on the Loughrea branch of all places, and another ended up even further afield - West Cork. In both cases their stays were brief, and both were old wooden ones thus brown - no wooden panelled GNR coaches ever got the blue and cream livery except No. 50, the Director's Saloon.

By the time they started straying beyond home territory they had typically been repainted green. At least one - 114 (brake 3rd) remained in blue and cream until (I think) 1967, as (I think) the last GNR coach to remain in GNR livery in use. But I think it stayed on the GN section.

Once CIE took over the GNR remains in the south, because they were based in Amiens Street, the first (and in most cases ONLY) place on CIE where GNR locos, railcars and coaches would have been seen was the DSER. They don't seem to have penetrated the MGWR much, and the GSW hardly at all.

I have never seen any evidence of a single blue and cream coach venturing onto the GSWR or MGWR sections - though it could well have happened. Such an instance, I reckon, would have been rare if it happened at all; over years and years of voraciously trawling any photos I can ever see, I have yet to see one example of it.  Within a short few years, anything GNR which ended up on CIE was repainted green, and from 1963 on, black'n'tan.

The UTA tended to keep some stock in GNR blue and cream a little longer; examples were still to be seen until maybe 1964 or so - my solitary recollection of a GNR coach in GNR livery was a brown one in Lisburn around 1964 (though I cannot be certain of the date). Several GNR & BUT railcars remained in blue and cream for a while, albeit with the letters "G N R" painted over, and a UTA crest substituted for the GNR one.

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

Can someone explain to a clueless individual how the GNR coaches ended up in three liveries? Just a delay in repainting them after CIE got their share or is 135 UTA property or something? Trying to learn a bit more about this period of our railways

Nothing "clueless" about your good self, murphaph!

Yes, just a delay. All three were in CIE stock. If 136 had been UTA property, it would have had an "N" stuck in front of the number. It is likely that it had been fairly recently painted when CIE took over, so a few years later it's still wearing its GNR clothes. Meanwhile, one of the two in the distance has been repainted between 1958 and 1962 (green) while the other has just been repainted more recently - after December 1962 / early '63 - in black'n'tan.

[murphaph]

Top notch info as always. Much appreciated 

I'm considering venturing a little beyond my 90's comfort zone and accumulating a little bit of stock from roughly 1961/1962 to leave the possibility or running an 800 alongside a 121 someday. To this end I'm trying to build up my knowledge of the period, so further questions may well follow lol.

[Galteemore]

Be very careful, Phil - this is arguably the most interesting epoch in Irish railway history and it will lure you in…an excellent place to build an overall awareness is Colin Boocock’s ‘Irish Railway Album’, a collection of photos taken from the late 50s to mid 60s. Published in 1968, it’s available quite reasonably https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30990910698&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-tile1&searchurl=ds%3D10%26kn%3DBoocock%2BIrish%2Brailway%2Balbum%26sortby%3D17

[StevieB]

I’ve had a copy for many years. It’s an absolutely lovely album stuffed full of evocative photos of all aspects of Irish railway operations. 
 

Stephen

[murphaph]

Thanks for the tip chaps! Copy ordered. Rare to get a book for so little money. I've also recently purchased the following but I'm yet to start reading them:

Edited January 5, 2022 by murphaph

[Galteemore]

Excellent. There’s lots of good stuff out there these days - especially in colour. The research is fascinating to do in its own right - even if, paradoxically, the more you learn, the more you end up realising how little you actually know! One of my lecturers thirty years ago said this was the sign of a true scholar so I live in hope….

[airfixfan]

The ITA had decided to repaint in UTA Black livery only the ex GNR locos they banned to retain after 1959. The four locos that survived on the Derry Road and the Dublin line in ex GNR Blue until 1965 had all been purchased from CIE in June 1963

 CIE saw no need to apply new liveries to the ex GNR locos after 1959

 The only ex GNR locos to retain their Blue livery under the UTA were 173 and both 58/59. Their poor condition by 1963 helps explain why the UTA bought 4 locos in better condition from CIE.  Finally if you are interested in details of GNR coaches there was an excellent booklet by Steve Rafferty for the IRRS some years ago

 Get a copy

[murphaph]

I shall keep an eye open for it.

The GSW stuff is more interesting to me as I intend modelling the GSW mainline but I guess GNR stock made it to Inchicore at least occasionally. When was Dundalk works closed actually?

[Galteemore]

Dundalk finally shut down by the very early 60s. An ex GNRI Q class was a bit of an occasional wanderer on CIE metals IIRC so you could certainly justify that.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

The GSW stuff is more interesting to me as I intend modelling the GSW mainline but I guess GNR stock made it to Inchicore at least occasionally. 

If you’re looking at GNR stuff on the GSWR, the best bets are the 100 cement vans - like CIE “H” vans only with corrugated ends a bit like many British goods vans. Then you’ve the German diesel, K801, which operated for a while on the Cobh line.

While as I said before I’ve no particular recollection of seeing a photo of an ex-GNR coach on the main line, and I never saw one myself, that’s not to say that a K15 or something like that never made such a trip. It’s your layout - and a green K15 may possibly appear at Dugort Harbour!

Model the DSER in the 60s and GNR stock is common…. For the GSWR in that era, though, laminates, Bredins, Cravens & the more modern wooden GSWR corridor stock are the only show in town.