KMCE's Workbench

[Moxy]

18 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Slater's Plasticard do 7mm scale corrugated sheets, so worth checking their website to see if 4mm available.

They do indeed, it's Slaters reference 0436.

Slater's own website is not the easiest to navigate, but their products are widely stocked by other retailers, it should be fairly easy to find.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Moxy
Clarity

[murphaph]

I can recommend this shop as a satisfied customer. I believe they ship outside Germany:

https://www.architekturbedarf.de/metal/corrugated-sheets/1

[Georgeconna]

Curving them is the thing though especially from a flat sheet it can be difficult.

 

[KMCE]

So,

 

Some roofs developed for the wagons - corrugated aluminium for the convertible and rolled brass for the cattle wagon.

A quick trip to the paint shop for a first coat of paint.  

 

Details are starting to pop out with the coat of grey paint.  Roof needs another coat of paint - in this case it was painted, then rolled.  It will be heavily weathered, so no issues with the marks visible. Slighly askew as it is not fixed down yet - I need to add some lead (and possibly cattle) before closing up.

 

 

Convertible roof is quite tricky to settle down on the wagon - visible gap in the photo is not visible when the wagon sits on the track - camera really does show up all those little flaws.  Not withstanding, the detail is coming out nicely.

 

For comparison, I lined up the DSER convertible with the GSWR convertible - whilst they are both convertibles, there is a considerable difference in format and construction (GSWR model is a SSM whitemetal model).  In fairness, the GSWR wagon probably should have 14mm wheels in lieu of the 12mm it currently runs with which would bring up the buffer and solebar levels.  Another job to be done!!.

 

Finally a quick pose with 423 to bring it all together.

 

Very pleased with how the detail has poped out once painted - I'm really impressed with the fidelity of the printing process.  To put this in context,  the strapping, hinges etc stand 0.3mm above the flat surface and utilise 0.3mm half sphere rivet heads

 

All in all, a good project and progressing well.

More as time permits

Ken

[Galteemore]

“Very pleased with how the detail has poped out once painted”

Excellent work Ken, although I am struggling to see the Roman influence……;) 

In all seriousness these wagons look the business 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Galteemore

[KMCE]

9 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Roman influence

..............hours of work, multiple prototyping, integrating AutoCAD, 3d Printing & CNC Milling, but you make one spelling mistake...............................................................   

[Galteemore]

8 minutes ago, KMCE said:

..............hours of work, multiple prototyping, integrating AutoCAD, 3d Printing & CNC Milling, but you make one spelling mistake...............................................................   

And some fool spots it….I can do none of the things you mention there but do spend much of my working life editing text …sorry Ken !

The wagons really have a classic Irish look and a world away from the repainted BR box van with a flying snail transfer that many of us have passed off as Irish! 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Galteemore

[KMCE]

5 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

sorry Ken

No need to be sorry - good comment, and I appreciate the banter.  

 

[Mike 84C]

Your new printed wagons have a very DSER look and "feel" about them, excellent. I look forward to more additions to your fleet.

[David Holman]

Proper job(s). The camera is indeed a great proof reader to help spot minor errors. Just like text, I fear the eye sees what it wants to see, especially at first, and discrepancies only get noticed later.

 As for typos, technology doesn't always help either. The cheap and cheerful Amazon tablet I'm doing this on has some very strange ideas about what I type and eighteen months in, I still find myself improving its vocabulary and expending mine on it. Initial problems included 'hooligan' for my surname. Quite liked that, but it has just changed hooligan to Sullivan's for some reason. It also prefers heartache to headteacher, my former job, which could also be described as apt at times. 

Anyway, great work Ken and will look forward to seeing what comes next.

[jhb171achill]

The late Sullivan Boomer was chairman of the RPSI during the years I was treasurer. When I went to email him - which, given our roles in the society, was at least once a day (no such thing as texting back then) - my ancient computer inevitably tried to change his name to “Sultan Bomber”……

[murphaph]

Fabulous stuff Ken. Amazing what you can achieve.

[KMCE]

A little bit of progress with some lettering and a start on weathering - a lot more to do, particularly on the cattle wagons.

Roofs still to be fixed down, most evident on the second wagon in line.

 

Additional weight has been added internally to bring up the weight to c. 60g which is inline with the other brass wagons, so should run well with the others.

 

As mentioned earlier, I have run off another revision of the Ashbury wagon to match the brass one built earlier.

Still some lettering & weatheing to be completed, but they are good match for the brass version.

 

All for this project now.....

 

Ken

[jhb171achill]

Outstanding stuff, Ken!

[KMCE]

And so for something completely different - I've been working on some other projects.  For a long while I've wanted to build a model of the Drewry petrol rialcar and started with the Worsley Works kit, however this kit is really for the narrow gauge version and was taking conisderable modifications to bash into the 5'3" version.  What transpired is that parts of the side, with some cut and shut, are the only part really suitable for the 5'3" version.  

Turns out the kit is too narrow, thus project was parked and re-started with a view to doing a 3D printed version.

 

A project in progress, and is currently at the Mk 3 version, but still needs work.  This one was worth a coat of paint to highlight problems to be solved, so worth sharing for information.

Print lines on the tumblehome are rather evident - I smothed one side for the painting to see how it would turn out.  Panels finish well, but I will need to sand down the panneling to remove the layer lines.

Step supports need to be beefed up as one broke when removing from the print suport stucutre - it will be out of scale, but needed to provide more strenght for normal handling.

The chassis will need more itegration to fit within the sole bars, and will most likely be a inside bearing, which is the next iteration.

Progressing well, but still needs work.

 

 

Ken

[Galteemore]

Excellent Ken. I have recently built the 3mm scale WW etch of the NG Drewry. It’s good / but basic!! Great level of detail already from your work. Love the way that signature features such as the radiator and fuel tank are so faithfully replicated.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

 We seem to be entering a new age. Must confess that until recently, have been sceptical of 3D printing, simply in terms of the quality of models I've seen in the flesh, or in photos. Quietly though,, over the last couple of years, the fruits of CAD in laser cut kits, creating your own etches (Gordon Gravett has been doing this for a while) and now complete, printed models are really proving what can be done.

 Don't let anyone say it isn't proper modelling either, because for me at least, it is applying new skills to traditional ones. All power to your elbows, Ken!

[KMCE]

Good progress made on the Railcar.

So - Mk 4 version picked up on the issues raised in my earlier post, however the rear crossbar is still somewhat fragile & broke off when working on the model.  It is stuck back on and I am loathe to increase the thickness of the supoorts as it will start to look too heavy.  Hopefully it should be OK.

A basic brass chassis was built to carry the axles, gearbox and motor.  It's rather tight under there, but it fit and doesn't impact on the visual appearance.  I do have some brake hangars cut, but still need to fit them - it's a bit of a struggle to see the braking operation from the few photos there are.  I'm not quite clear if both sides of all wheels were braked or just one side  - still to decipher that one.

 

Lining turned out quite well, however the camera can really be a bitch (as discussed earlier).  On the track & at normal viewing distance, it looks well, but I am seeing issues once blown up in the photos.  For context, this is 96mm long, so not a big model by any standards.

Still work to do, but progressing rather well.

 

Anyway - all for now.  Time for a glass (or more) of wine & relax.

 

Ken

[KMCE]

Moving on to other stock, I wanted to build a model of the 21' 6" 4 wheel passenger brake built by Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co.  in 1878 for the DWWR.  I obtained a drawing for this from the HMRS and developed my own 2D & 3D version.

This like other models, this went through a prototying exercise, and I have settled on the Mk3 version.  I magaged to get most elements sorted based on experience with other models.  What made this eaiser to develop in 3D was that it was straight sided & thus reduced the amount of work in the CAD model.

 

 

What is interesting is the size of the brake blocks - these are sized as per the original drawings.

Last of these (1 of 4) was withdrawn in 1930, so did make it through to the GSR days. 

 

Nice little brake coach which still needs some tidying up, work on lettering, weathering etc. 

 

Ken

[David Holman]

Great model, full of character. Looks like you are well into 3D printing now, so am wondering how it works out, time wise, compared to scratchbuilding, or indeed resin casting?

 When I made a WL&W four wheeler for Belmullet, guess it took around 18-20 hours to build the model - before painting, but including the chassis. Similarly,with the exWLW six wheelers for the turf train, one side and one end took 10-12 hours to make the masters, plus another hour on the mould. After casting (one every half hour), assembly with an Alphagraphix chassis took another 6-8 hours, so around 30 hours each model, or 60 for the pair. 

 How does that compare to 3D printing, including CAD and test runs? Am guessing that once perfected, CAD will work out pretty favourably, especially for multiple copies? 

[KMCE]

On 20/9/2021 at 7:46 AM, David Holman said:

how it works out, time wise, compared to scratchbuilding

Timewise, it would need to be broken into the design element (CAD) and 3D printing.

3D printing takes just over 3 hours for one of these models, however you only need to fill the bath with resin, load up the code and press play, so can't really be considered work, as there is nothing to do until printed.  Clean up (washing, support removal, clean up any flash) and curing takes about 1 hour.   So for this model (3 iterations), there would be c. 10 hrs printing & 3 hours of clean up.  Actual hands on would be the 3 hours of clean up & cure.

CAD design is where the real work is.  What is helping with newer models as I progress is the experience  gained on the other models such as wall thickness, strapping & detail thickness, brake position, floor positionining, etc.  

Having a drawing of some description to start with is a bonus (as is the case with all above, save cattle wagons) as it helps to form the basic 2D model to begin with.  The cattle wagon model may have taken over 40 hours of CAD time, particularly with the number of iterations & corrections, while the convertible wagon probably took 10 - 15 hours.  The Drewery railcar probably took 20 - 25 hours as there was some new learning to do, but the forthcoming Cattle Brake took 15 - 20 hours.  I don't keep a record of the time, as I go back an forth as time allows.

Once a model is developed, it is only printing time and printer plate size the limits multiple copies.  I can run 5 cattle wagons simultaneously , but probably only 2 Cattle Brakes.

 

I have decided that I will not print locomotive models for a number of reasonsl, but mainly weight.  The resin models are very light (cattle wagon 20g) which need lead weights to bring to a suitable weight to ensure they run properly on the track.  There would not be enough room in a 3D printed model (steam loco) to put in sufficient weight to provide adequate traction.  My brass models (with weight added) weigh in between 200 - 300g & so have adequate traction.  A 3D printed model, even with a brass chassis would be somewhere between 80 - 100g, which means a lot of weight to add.  For now, I'll stick with brass loco models. 

3D printing is good for multiple wagons / coaches, however I think locos deserve finer work in brass?

[David Holman]

Fascinating, many thanks Ken! Certainly agree with you 're loco construction, though there was an article in MRJ not long ago where someone described 3D printing a brass dome. Presume that has something to do with resin used but whether it is heavy enough is beyond me.

 Not surprised to read that it is the drawing that takes the time. Must admit it is something I've been tempted to have a go at, especially as it is a modelling task that can be done in the living room, where solvents, paints and soldering iron are frowned upon in my house for some reason! Also, Mark Clark of Locos and Bits is a Chatham Club member who produces 3D prints, so I wouldn't have to invest in any equipment. 

 Especially like the idea that, once acquired, CAD skills can be used for all sorts of things, including designing your own etches for one off loco kits, plus scenic and so on.

 Anyway, well done you and I shall continually look forward to seeing what else you come up with.

[Mayner]

David

I would not recommend using a resin printer within a living area can produce some nasty fumes. I have mine set up in a shed with an extract system, shed with insulated floor walls ceilings, electrical heating and humidity control.

Setting up the first prints (support structure) and identifying a suitable resin especially for 3D wagons or coach chassis can be challenging.

Although I have done some 3D CAD work I use a freelance designer for commercial work, the time taken and cost per model has dropped considerably as he gained railway experience and we both developed an understanding of the limitations if what can be achieved in terms of railway models.

It might be worth while thinking of designing a 7mm or larger scale 3D coach or wagon with separate sides, ends, roof and underframe to assemble as opposed to a one piece model.

simpler to design, a higher standard of finish, easier to support and clean up before assembly.

One piece models tend to have one good or two good sides with sharp detail, the opposite sides with loss of detail due to lower resolution and removal of temporary supports.

Ken.

That passenger brake exudes character, great to see such distinctive models from such a neglected railway!

That 

[David Holman]

Thanks John, sensible advice, though was only thinking of doing the CAD on the laptop in the lounge and get Mark to do the printing. Like the idea of doing separate sides and ends to assemble later. That ought to be within my skills and for something like a covered van might make a nice starter project. Good for thought for others too.

[KMCE]

The Elusive one………. The Cattle Brake.

This has been the most difficult wagon / coach to research and develop due to the complete absence of information in the form of drawings or photos.  There is some written information as complied by E. Shepherd and Gerry Beesley in Dublin & South Eastern Railway, and E. Shepherd in The Dublin & South Eastern Railway (two separate books, I assure you).  E. Shepherd’s comment on the cattle brakes  is “Could not be found 31.1.60”.  For a class of vans clearly designed for the cattle special and goods traffic the lack of information is lamentable.

In 1875 – 1890 13 brake coaches were built at the Grand Canal St works and were referred to as cattle brakes, consisting of three 3rd class compartments for drovers and were ballasted as goods brake vans.  They were subsequently re-classified as goods brakes in 1913 but maintained their 3rd Brake numbers until withdrawn.  And that’s where the trail goes cold.

I searched through other known information on 3rd brakes for dimensions, and similar coaches that were being built by the GCS at the same time and have deduced that the coaches were probably c. 27’ over headstocks with 3 x 5’1” passenger compartments and a 10’ 2” brake compartment.  These dimensions were taken from drawings of 31’5” 3rd brakes (4 compartment plus brake) in my possession.  As to the exterior finish, it would be a reasonable supposition that the exterior detailing would be rather plain given their proposed use as goods wagons, with some basic panelling or trims.

An initial outline drawing was developed based on these suppositions:

As this would be 3D printed, an associated drawing was developed.

The springs and axle boxes were integrated into the model but are cosmetic as a separate compensated & floating brass chassis was intended to take 28mm pinpoint axles.  3rd coaches of this era ran with 3’ 6” open spoke wheels which would also match the goods traffic.

SSM compensated W-irons were used with fixed axle glued in at one end and the corresponding compensated axle glued in at the other.  A centre floating axle is suspended between front and rear axles by means of two 0.35mm phosphorus bronze wires and weighed down with a piece of lead soldered to the top of the W-iron.  This flexibility and weight helps the axle to stay on track through corners and points.

 

 

Brake shoes and lever frames were printed with the rest of the body, but some brass brake linkages were cut on the mill and integrated with 0.5mm brass rods to complete the brake assembly.

Roof is brass rolled with ventilators and lamps added which came from SSM parts, as are the buffers.

Painted in overall grey to match the goods wagons with lettering and numbering by stencil using white ink.  Some initial coarse weathering has been applied, but more to be done.  Glazing is still to be installed which will be done once weathering is complete, after which time the roof can finally be glued on.  Some door handles and hand rails will need to be added also.

 

And now for the Ts & Cs!!  

Given the considerable lack of information and the decisions made to create this model, it cannot be claimed in any way that it is historically accurate.  Any assumptions made are purely my own, however I think this is a reasonable representation of a very elusive brake van.  If anyone has any information on this particular brake van that would contradict, or improve on any assumptions/decisions I have made, I would be most interested in discussing.

 

Does make a nice ending for a classic DSER style cattle train though!

All for now.

 

Ken  

[Galteemore]

An unusual prototype and excellent deduction Ken. Nice model - like the varied position of the drop lights ! 

[David Holman]

Fabulous. Another unusual prototype chalked up, Ken and it does indeed complement a splendid train. 

 Could we hope for an article somewhere, like the IRRS Journal on such vans? With so much cattle traffic across Ireland, the D&SER were by no means the only ones to have drovers' vans. The Sligo had a couple (candidates for 'shortest mixed train' award), while the MGW had its glasshouse brakes too. 

 There are some fascinating comparisons to be made, though how much info is actually out there is another matter, I suppose.

[KMCE]

The advantage of the CAD process, is that once a model is developed, it is not too difficult to expand the range. 

So given we now have a 27' chassis, it makes it easier to find coaches what were built to this dimension, and looking into the records we can find a first and third that can be built up from this base.

A first No. 48 built by Grand Canal St. (GCS) in 1896 fits these dimensions, and thankfully there are some photos of this coach, which helped the development process.  This coach was converted to 3rd in 1931 - but for this exercise,  we will stay as a 1st.

 

The 27' chassis also allowed for an early 5 compartment 3rd, in this case No. 1 built by Brown Marshall & Co. in 1892, which was subsequently converted to a sleeping van in 1927.  Again we have photos of the coach as 137A (sleeping van), but for this exercise, we will keep it as 3rd No.1. 

Given we have a model, and there is space on the build plate, why not build two, and we can pick a number betweeen 2 & 12 for its number.  What is most interesting is that some of these coaches were used in the "cockle train 1925/6", which to date I have been unable to uncover any information as to what exactly this was.  Any information others may have would be most appreciated. 

 

A quick respray of the 4 wheel 3rd brake alreay shown would add to this train.

 

Paint was a solvent paint mix from Vinny Byrne which sprayed very well but needed a lot of clean up of the airbrush.  Colour and paint is very good, but not sure the work required with the airbrush is worth it, particularly given the change to acrylic for other colours.  Perhaps this is why others have invested in mulitple airbrushes??

Looking at the images, the paint may be too thick as the door relief as partially dissappeared - I may need to scribe these slightly to reinstate the detail.  Not a big issue, but needs to be resolved.

 

For this project I developed the roof for 3D printing, including lamps and torpedo vents.  This did take a number of efforts, as the initial prints were too thin which resulted in wavy edges.  For these models, I increased the thickness, but filed back the edges to thin them slighly so they do not look overscale.  The difference between the ends and sides of the 6-wheelers shows the thickness difference.  Given the reduction in work between the brass version and this one, I can live with the slightly over thickness on the ends.

 

Put all these together and we get a nice DSER style commuter train.

 

Still a bit of work needed to add glazing, door knobs, handles, weathering etc to finish, but very pleased with the results thus far.

 

Will bring these along to the show in Bray on Sunday for anyone interested in attending.

 

All for now.

Ken 

 

 

[Galteemore]

That looks amazing Ken. A long vanished scene brought to life. 

[Northroader]

I suppose with that CAD process, another advantage would be you could just as easy do it in 7mm scale? (Hint, hint)

[David Holman]

Certainly agree there! Once again, impressive work Ken.

[KMCE]

Back to wagons briefly. 

As part of the package of drawings I received from HMRS was a drawing of the 3 Plank wagon ordered by DW&WR in 1872.  40 of these wagons were ordered from two suppliers, 20 of which were supplied by Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Company, and this is a development of their drawing to form a model. 

These wagons were re-built by DSER in 1907, however I have elected to model the original version, mainly because the drawings were available - one slight change I have made is the use of a slightly smaller brake block; I may amend this to the larger shown in the original drawing for future prints.

The drawing was developed, and once again corrections applied to the minor disrepancies between the drawing and the figured dimensions.  In fairness, this drawing was much more accurate than the others I have worked with to date.

 

A 3D model was developed to allow printing as before.

 

This model had considerable detail, but one error I now see is the missing seam between the doors on the inside.  I can introduce this prior to printing off some more.

 

A print later, add some wheels, buffers and couplings we get:

This has printed rather well and the corner plate detail which is very noticable on these wagons came out very well, as did the strapping at the base of the uprights.  The rivet detail at the top of the door is not as good as other detail, so I may need to provide some additional supports to help hold the sides stable when printing.  

The top of the sides has bowed out slightly, but his can be adjusted with some deft attention with a hair dryer.  These models respond well to heat from a hair dryer giving just enough time to move the side back into position & allow it to cool.  (Side note:  This may be something that will need looking at in the future - I may need to investigate what will happen if a model is left in the sunlight for an extended period.)

Once again axle boxes have inset cones to take the pinpoint axles, holes added for buffers, draw hook and coupling points.  I appear to have run out of hooks, so will need to order some more to finish this one off.

 

As mentioned, the DSER re-built these in 1907 and changed them considerably, losing the distictive uprights in the process.  Photo below is taken from Dublin & South Eastern Railway by E. Shepherd and Gerry Beesley.

 

Nice wagon with some distinctive features which hopefully will show once painted & weathered.

All for now.

Ken

 

[Galteemore]

That’s great Ken - looks most interesting and a very nice piece of work. Those uprights are very distinctive- the SLNC had some similar types of bracing- see wagons to left and right of 143.

 

[KMCE]

30 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

wagons to left and right of 143

Most interesting.  Some time ago, I scratch built a model of a "Flat Truck for Road Vehicles" based on drawings held by the IIRS.  This does have the distinctive uprights, though two instead of the four on wagon 9 above.

I will need to check where I got the 144 number from for my wagon, as I would assume it should be similar to 143, but 143 has no uprights!

Ken

[Galteemore]

That’s a lovely model too. Yes, I have the SLNC ‘wagon book’ from the IRRS too. That road vehicle one seems - logically enough - to have had ends that drop down over the buffers with fixed sides. 143 looks more like a ballast wagon, which would have fixed ends and dropping sides instead.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Galteemore