Fake Railwayana

[Blaine]

  On 7/9/2022 at 9:30 PM, jhb171achill said:

and the "flying snail" on the control desk of NIR's three 071s, it's possible that a "foreign" manufacturer got the details wrong 

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'Pushes glasses up nose' - the 3 NIR 111's have the NIR logo - its the 071's that have the flying snail.....

With the sheer amount of pubs being closed down and cleared out lately expect more 'signs' railway or not to appear for sale

[minister_for_hardship]

If it were fake, we'd see a lot more than one (or two) on the market.

[Galteemore]

  On 8/9/2022 at 7:55 AM, Blaine said:

'Pushes glasses up nose' - the 3 NIR 111's have the NIR logo - its the 071's that have the flying snail.....

With the sheer amount of pubs being closed down and cleared out lately expect more 'signs' railway or not to appear for sale

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The flying snails are indeed on the 111s too, but covered over with a York Road-installed plate. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Galteemore

[minister_for_hardship]

  On 7/9/2022 at 9:30 PM, jhb171achill said:

It does LOOK genuine; if it's a dud it's a very good one.

Yes, the Midland could have had numbers that high  - but my concern is the "(I)" bit after "MGWR".  The OFFICIAL name of the company was, note order of wording, the "Midland Great Western of Ireland Railway Company"; not the "Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland". Thus, strictly, if the "I" is to be included, one would be inclined to think it would translate into initials as "MGW(I)R".

It was normal on MGWR carriage plates and other notices, trespass signs and the like to use simply "MGWR". I would prefer to see this thing in the flesh, as it were, in order to deremine its authenticity or lack thereof; as of now, the jury's out.

It is possible it was off one of those imported Belgian wagons - like General Motors' 1976 livery for the 071s, which was arong in several ways from the actual CIE livery of the day, and the "flying snail" on the control desk of NIR's three 071s, it's possible that a "foreign" manufacturer got the details wrong - but that's on the assumption that it was they, rather than Broadstone, who cast these plates in the first instance.

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Any MGWR or even a later wagon list with M suffix available?

I think there was just a carriage list on the Shepherd MGWR book, the wagons would have numbered into the low 1000s at least. The GSWR had up to 5 digit wagon numbers.

[jhb171achill]

I went through some material I have last night to see what was visible in photos of wagons. No photo I saw had a plate even remotely like that.

With a number that high, it cannot be a locomotive obviously, nor a carriage; in any event, MGWR carriages had a very distinctive type of plate, totally different from those in every way - shape, print font, the lot - and ALL carriages ones had "MGWR" on them.

Thus, if it is genuine it can only be off a wagon. Wagons seem not to have had cast plates on the chassis at all - instead they had only the painted numbers on the sides. I have seen no photo which shows any sort of wagon plate. As I suggested earlier the only likelihood is that it is off some very non-standard vehicle. Such things did exist - at one stage I had what I suspect was a one-off GNR(I) plate for a rebuild of a wagon in 1940. It was made of lead rather than cast iron too, but had a proven provenance as genuine - jhb171Senior wrenched it off a scrapper in Dundalk in the 1960s.

  On 8/9/2022 at 10:35 AM, minister_for_hardship said:

Any MGWR or even a later wagon list with M suffix available?

I think there was just a carriage list on the Shepherd MGWR book, the wagons would have numbered into the low 1000s at least. The GSWR had up to 5 digit wagon numbers.

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Indeed, yes - the actual number of this thing is indeed plausible - the Midland had vast numbers of cattle trucks which would push up numbers.

When the GSR and later CIE cast plates with the "M" suffix, they were of their standard "D" shaped design, with "GSR" or "CIE" on them rather than MGWR (with or without the "I"!)......

[minister_for_hardship]

I haven't seen a GSR/CIE cast D wagon plate with M suffix, yet. Have seen A (departmental stock), N (ex GNRI) and C (West Clare section) 

Thousands upon thousands of wagons went to the scrappers without anyone salvaging anything from them. A small number may have been sold off privately for sheds and the like so may be a source of surviving material.

Identical Mgwr D plates from 1319 and 1428 appear to have survived. All 10 tons which may be a clue as to what they may be off of.

Edited September 8, 2022 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

  On 8/9/2022 at 2:09 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

I haven't seen a GSR/CIE cast D wagon plate with M suffix, yet. Have seen A (departmental stock), N (ex GNRI) and C (West Clare section) 

Thousands upon thousands of wagons went to the scrappers without anyone salvaging anything from them. A small number may have been sold off privately for sheds and the like so may be a source of surviving material.

Identical Mgwr D plates from 1319 and 1428 appear to have survived. All 10 tons which may be a clue as to what they may be off of.

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Not sure I've seen an "M" suffix on a plate either. I would say that in GSR days there should have been a few, but there was a pogrom of MGWR wagons in the fifties, so probably few - if any at all - CIE, and as you suggest any few GSR ones long gone.

10 tons would presumably have been a goods van.

[Mayner]

  On 8/9/2022 at 8:46 PM, jhb171achill said:

Not sure I've seen an "M" suffix on a plate either. I would say that in GSR days there should have been a few, but there was a pogrom of MGWR wagons in the fifties, so probably few - if any at all - CIE, and as you suggest any few GSR ones long gone.

10 tons would presumably have been a goods van.

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P O'Cuimin's "MGWR Wagon Stock" Feb 1970 IRRS Journal is the main published source on MGWR wagons, but does not contain a stock list as such.

The Standard Covered Wagon (soft topped livestock & goods) was the largest numerical group of wagon 1613 out of a total stock of 3319 in service in 1924 (Open (crib) cattle next numerous no total given (until 1912) against a total of 430 Covered Cattle wagons.

Its possible 3319 may be a Bogie rail wagon bought from Leeds Forge following WW1 which remained in service into the early-mid 1970.

The hopper wagons bought following WW1  for the North Wall-Broadstone coal train were numbered 3078-3094.

Its possible 1319m and 1428m may have been IRCH 10 Ton Standard Open wagons introduced in 1919 or IRCH 10 Ton Standard Covered Wagons introduced during the same period, the GSR and CIE continued to build open wagons to the IRCH Spec up to the introduction of the Bullied Corrugated Opens in the Mid 1950s

Interestingly Bogie Well Wagon 3409m the highest numbered ex-MGWR wagon appears to have lost its m suffix following re-building as the cable plough wagon including the fitting of modern roller bearing bogies

[Wexford70]

  On 27/6/2019 at 8:11 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

Fake.

Had it from someone in the antiques trade, a foundry in New Ross churns out fake signs by the bushel.

Worth 10 or 15 euro, scrap iron value. I wouldn't pay any more for a novelty sign.

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I thought it was in Limerick.

[jhb171achill]

  On 8/9/2022 at 7:55 AM, Blaine said:

'Pushes glasses up nose' - the 3 NIR 111's have the NIR logo - its the 071's that have the flying snail.....

With the sheer amount of pubs being closed down and cleared out lately expect more 'signs' railway or not to appear for sale

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Not originally. Snails on delivery….

[Blaine]

Every day is a school day

[bufferstop]

Getting ridiculous now....

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/417a52ac8ecd384480a5a1bb6a17771e/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/another-super-great-weekly-timed-auction-this-week-with-lot-166/

 

Two examples of this "wagon plate" have appeared in auctions in the last fortnight.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/1fb5e223cb02cc14453f223ed796efc4/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/another-super-great-weekly-timed-auction-this-week-with-lot-308/

 

 

[jhb171achill]

I have emailed many sellers of this sort of fake stuff to point out that they need to advertise them as "replica". To be fair, a few of them have done, but most ignore.

n

[bufferstop]

In fairness, the top one isn't even advertised as a railway item.........

[minister_for_hardship]

Lots of fakes in that particular auctioneers, even their apple isnt real!

[DERAILED]

The worst part about that BBC & PJR sign is that some fool paid €55 + commission for it.

[K801]

€250 at Callan car boot sale last week .....

[Mayner]

  On 3/10/2022 at 2:12 AM, K801 said:

€250 at Callan car boot sale last week .....

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it looks like the commemorative plaque from the water tower at Castlegregory Junction that was installed following road widening during the 1970s

[minister_for_hardship]

  On 3/10/2022 at 8:54 AM, Mayner said:

it looks like the commemorative plaque from the water tower at Castlegregory Junction that was installed following road widening during the 1970s

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Looks like it but has been duplicated and sold at every car boot in the country. The original disappeared some years back.

[Westcorkrailway]

  On 3/10/2022 at 12:06 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

Looks like it but has been duplicated and sold at every car boot in the country. The original disappeared some years back.

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Honestly the one at the car boot sale looks like it’s been outside for years……I wonder if that’s the one that’s gone missing 

[minister_for_hardship]

  On 3/10/2022 at 1:39 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Honestly the one at the car boot sale looks like it’s been outside for years……I wonder if that’s the one that’s gone missing 

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Looks like it spent a few months in the open, it's not heavily rusted.

I doubt it, there's hundreds of these things doing the rounds, even a mini version if you dont have space for a full size one.

[Westcorkrailway]

  On 3/10/2022 at 3:06 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

Looks like it spent a few months in the open, it's not heavily rusted.

I doubt it, there's hundreds of these things doing the rounds, even a mini version if you dont have space for a full size one.

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I understand people buying some of these….others I can’t. There was a C&BR one going around which actually is an abreviation for an Irish railway….and I think that wagon plate could fool somone too 
 

this sign is clearly meant to have been a one off commission to commemorate where something WAS!

[minister_for_hardship]

  On 3/10/2022 at 3:16 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

I understand people buying some of these….others I can’t. There was a C&BR one going around which actually is an abreviation for an Irish railway….and I think that wagon plate could fool somone too 
 

this sign is clearly meant to have been a one off commission to commemorate where something WAS!

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Something something old timey choo choo train engine is all most people understand!

[DERAILED]

I started this thread about the Castlegregory Junction water tower sign on Boards.ie four years ago: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108624178/#Comment_108624178

The individual involved went ape shit and started posting all over the internet about me and even went as far as setting up a bogus website mirrored on my own one. Dangerous people in West Limerick.

[Westcorkrailway]

  On 3/10/2022 at 8:10 PM, DERAILED said:

I started this thread about the Castlegregory Junction water tower sign on Boards.ie four years ago: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108624178/#Comment_108624178

The individual involved went ape shit and started posting all over the internet about me and even went as far as setting up a bogus website mirrored on my own one. Dangerous people in West Limerick.

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Unless your website deals in transactions…I’d almost find that level of dedication humorous! 100 percent wheatever they had, they’d paid far to much for it….and sh*t hit the fan when d’experts came in

 

what’s more worrying  is that’s where the flying snail mark 3 is going…….it’s about to get scrapped peice by peice! 

[Broithe]

Many years ago, when I was still able to use the train to access the Holyhead ferry on the Big Island, I was returning and sat behind four railway staff, on their way to work in Chester. Their discussion was mostly around the location of redundant objects that could be 'released' into their possession for subsequent resale. One sign was going to be quite difficult to access, being above a tunnel portal, and there was some dispute about who was going to be the 'lucky' one to abseil down to it.

[DERAILED]

Another WD&LR sign sold for €70 in Keighery's, Waterford, this week - I was almost tempted but without being able to physically view the sign I didn't bid. As I think I mentioned previously in this thread there were still quite a lot of WD&LR signs still in place in the 1980s so this could be the genuine item.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

  On 28/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, DERAILED said:

Another WD&LR sign sold for €70 in Keighery's, Waterford, this week - I was almost tempted but without being able to physically view the sign I didn't bid. As I think I mentioned previously in this thread there were still quite a lot of WD&LR signs still in place in the 1980s so this could be the genuine item.

 

 

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Possible, at a pinch; but there weren’t many LCs on the W & T, and there has been a glut of duds in the last 20 years…..

[Broithe]

The finish on the back of a cast iron sign can be a better clue to the veracity than the front, especially if you've seen a definitely genuine one to compare it with.

[DERAILED]

  On 28/10/2022 at 10:22 PM, jhb171achill said:

Possible, at a pinch; but there weren’t many LCs on the W & T, and there has been a glut of duds in the last 20 years…..

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Wrong line and its a gate sign anyway not LC. Somebody, who I will not mention, had quite a stack of them back in the late '80s which he had personally removed.

[K801]

  On 28/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, DERAILED said:

Another WD&LR sign sold for €70 in Keighery's, Waterford, this week - I was almost tempted but without being able to physically view the sign I didn't bid. As I think I mentioned previously in this thread there were still quite a lot of WD&LR signs still in place in the 1980s so this could be the genuine item.

 

 

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A gate just outside Dungarvan has this type sign welded to it; it is very very shiny around the edges from people trying to remove it over the years

[Broithe]

  On 1/11/2022 at 5:55 PM, K801 said:

A gate just outside Dungarvan has this type sign welded to it; it is very very shiny around the edges from people trying to remove it over the years

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There is a bronze statue of Leonardo da Vinci in Amboise, in France. It's by the river and he is reclining, nude, on a stone slab.

One part of the statue is shiny, from decades of passing hands...

[minister_for_hardship]

  On 28/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, DERAILED said:

Another WD&LR sign sold for €70 in Keighery's, Waterford, this week - I was almost tempted but without being able to physically view the sign I didn't bid. As I think I mentioned previously in this thread there were still quite a lot of WD&LR signs still in place in the 1980s so this could be the genuine item.

 

 

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A "sigh" alright. A fake. Another person had.

A proper one should look like this.

Edited November 1, 2022 by minister_for_hardship

[DERAILED]

Spotted this gem on eBay today - fresh as a newly laid egg and yours for a mere £350.

 

[airfixfan]

Nothing like the standard LLSR metal.notice. Similar to other fake notices with just a choice of different company letters.