Working and Public Timetables

[Irishswissernie]

17 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Fascinating stuff. Is that the timetable in its entirety? Just seems that nothing arrived in Albert Quay before 1035! Must have made commuting rather difficult....

I would think that as I believe CIE also ran the bus services and the railway timetable refers to 11 pages (70 to 80) of connections, that commuters and passenger traffic etc were channelled towards these as these were apparently more economical to run. It would be of interest (to me anyway) just how biased public transport was towards the road.

Ernie

Edited February 17, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[Noel]

Back then as an almost 3rd world country we had no roads, hence the railways were primarily to move agricultural produce and materials. We had no population to move about unlike densely populated GB with its large industrial cities. It is interesting driving through small provincial towns that once had a rail branch and to still see evidence of railway architecture, goods buildings and stores, etc (eg Banagher, Birr, Kinsale, Baltimore, etc)

[Irishswissernie]

There is a copy of  Bradshaws 1910 timetable in Creedon Vol 2. Even then the earliest passenger arrival in Cork was at 10.15 (from Clonakilty). First arrival from Baltimore/Bantry 10.40.

 

[Galteemore]

Presumably such commuter traffic as existed in Cork (the solicitors, bankers, and business owners must have lived somewhere!) was channelled through the tramways and the Passage line. With its double track section and rather racy tank locos, the latter system was (like the BCDR) something of an exception to the Irish railway leaning towards freight 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

By the end, according to several late enthusiasts who were experts on the west Cork lines, the dieselisation would obviously mean greatly reduced loco Dept. staffing on the system.

This led to frequent forays of main line drivers and firemen when things got busy, e.g. the beet season.

By 1961 there was but one “Bandon tank” serviceable, but it spent most of its time shunting Glanmire Road.

As I’m sure most know, the pair of J30’s, 90 & 100, spent their last few years double-heading the summer specials between Clonakilty Jct and Courtmacsherry. I believe a “main line” engine brought them down to there from Cork. Once they put a “C” class on that duty (1958 or 9), that one wasn’t steam any more. 90 remained shunting Albert Quay and Glanmire for a couple of years more, and should shortly join the Q for a return to traffic at Downpatrick, releasing CSET No. 1 for a much-needed break.

In the final days, steam was rare, with nothing regular after c. 1958. A GSWR tank engine or possibly 464 occasionally deputised for the railcar when it was away for maintenance.

I could be wrong on this as it was a long time ago I was told, but the late James Boyd believed that this was every two to four weeks.

The branch train towards the end was a new “tin van” and an old GSWR dide corridor bogie compo of 1910-20 era design - or - a GSWR 6-wheel passenger brake and a six wheel compo (ex-Midland, usually - a lot of old MGWR 6-wheelers ended their days in Cork).

One of the great beauties of the “Green’n’Grey” era was the likelihood of seeing a branch train consisting of a six-month-old diesel hauling a brand new “tin van”, followed by an 1887 six-wheeled third and a 1915 bogie coach! Or, elsewhere, an 1887 steam engine hauling a brand new laminate and an 1892 wooden 6-wheel brake 3rd!

[Mayner]

50 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Presumably such commuter traffic as existed in Cork (the solicitors, bankers, and business owners must have lived somewhere!) was channelled through the tramways and the Passage line. With its double track section and rather racy tank locos, the latter system was (like the BCDR) something of an exception to the Irish railway leaning towards freight 

Cork was a very compact city with urban development mainly restricted to the river valley, the West Cork entered the city on a sinuous route through a largely rural area from the South West. Even today Waterfall approx 6 miles from Albert Quay appears to be in a completely rural area. Up to the 1980s commuter/suburban passenger services in the Republic were largely restricted to Cork-Cobh, Dublin-Bray-Greystones, Dublin-Howth-Drogheda lines.  There was very little urban development to the West of Dublin before the 1970s with even less along the railway lines!

The Muskerry and Passage lines appear to have been much more suburban in nature, both lost traffic to the trams and no doubt the early motor cars. There are stories of children commuting to school on the Muskerry

[Broithe]

Even with the recent extension, Cork is not a huge place - in UK terms, it's between Wolverhampton and Bolton in size, neither of which are really stand-alone places, more like large suburbs of even larger cities.

In terms of 'isolated' conurbations, Aberdeen, Luton and Norwich would be fairly similar in population.

[NIR]

A 10.35am arrival in Cork sounds fine for transacting business, as they used to say - calling in at a government department, bank or professional firm then a trip around the department stores.

Edited February 17, 2020 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

“Back in the day”, this was very much the case. One of my late uncles was an insurance salesman, whose working life would have started in the early 1930s, and he would travel about by train. He would arrive in some distant, exotic place like Navan or Carlow, and meet his client.

A pot of tea or a sup of whiskey would follow, depending on the client, and they’d rarely get much business done before lunch.

Late afternoon train back to Dublin.

Point being: the business life of people back then was much more relaxed, without quite the same emphasis on rush hours as now.

Had any of the CBSCR survived, an arrival in Cork by 9 at the latest would probably be obligatory.

If operated by, say, a 4x 2600 or a 3x ICR, it’s interesting to speculate how long it would take from Bantry to Cork. Most of the smaller stops would probably be closed and at most he’d have one other train to cross.

[Galteemore]

Good point JHB. The flip side of this is that for other types of business, the commercial model simply didn’t factor in travel either by customers or employees. Hence the myriad of cottage shops (which I remember in 1970s Leitrim). My father started his banking career in tiny towns where the banks probably don’t have a presence now. But in those days the manager and clerk both lived over the shop. And my dad’s laundry travelled home by train  more often than he did! Those of us who model the steam era do well to read novels and short stories by the likes of William Trevor and John McGahern which give rather nice glimpses of the social dynamics back then. Alongside Sprinks on my shelf I also have Michael Hamilton’s personal history of the SLNC, which nicely illustrates how people actually used the line. We also have a letter from him describing in detail my grandfather’s fish trade with Dublin...

Edited February 17, 2020 by Galteemore

[minister_for_hardship]

Cork, Bandon, Bantry, Baltimore, Skibbereen and Schull.

(Cork and Macroom, see Omnibus Time Table for Road Motor Services)

12th Sept 1938 until further notice.

[Noel]

5 hours ago, NIR said:

A 10.35am arrival in Cork sounds fine for transacting business, as they used to say - calling in at a government department, bank or professional firm then a trip around the department stores.

In the early 80s I used to get the 7:40 Heuston-Cork and arrive in Cork not long after 9am ready for a full days work in the Cork office or at meetings with clients, before returning leg about 18:00 or 18:30. City Gold back then was a great service, comfy, quiet, and decent food service to your seat. Great for business travellers. Hot food, menus, delph and metal cutlery, linen napkins, none of those packet salad sandwich malarky like the 22k nowadays with just a trolly.

[Noel]

Wow 2h40mins Cork to Baltimore, must have been fairly slow trains. Can you imagine the summer traffic they might attract nowadays from tourists and back packers heading out to west cork and the coastal towns.

[jhb171achill]

They were slow.

Various circulars survive showing very numerous slacks on already-slow track.

[h gricer]

16 hours ago, DiveController said:

I understand that, Minister and I hope that that was understood from my previous comments. As for the a regional museum taking a voluntary interest, that would seem unlikely from what I've seen. The IRRS might have to bequeath them to the NLI with stipulations of course to enlist such help.

It is up to the society to make membership attractive or useful in some way in order to attract membership. For overseas members who cannot walk in on a Tuesday an online resource makes the most sense.

@h gricer I am certain that there have been many contributions to the survival of and acquisitions made by the IRRS due to its volunteers. I actually agree with many of your points but it is frequently very difficult to comment constructively on this forum without someone waiting to be indignant and defensive about a great many matters. I must assume from your rhetoric that I am included among the slanderous. Failing to gauge or react to the general perceptions regarding any institution or society may not necessarily a recipe for failure but certainly will do little to advance its mission. I'm sorry if you have perceived all of this as offensive after so much time spent at the IRRS and I want to get  it off this thread so please PM me if necessary. 

Sorry to take the topic back from the main point again here hopefully for the last time, Divecontroller thank you for your response but I may politely decline the PM as I feel what I am writing is in the interest of everyone here, my criticism is not directly aimed at you but are in reference to posts made elsewhere on this forum in which words such as squirreling collections, unhelpful etc.. was introduced by another member and which you have re-used to backup such claims, these posts which I refer to elsewhere fell far below the constructive criticism both you and I advocate and were nothing more than a 'cheap shot' at the IRRS and its hard working volunteers. Its not surprising this sort of negative rhetoric surfaced again when further misinformation was posted in this very thread about photo collections by those who clearly know nothing of the internal workings of this society and therefore gives a bad image of its voluntary endeavours. I note my post has received positive hits suggesting I'm not alone in feeling this way and theres maturity among some members here to neither engage or entertain these kind of slurs. To have this go on unchecked is unacceptable and I hope my final comments on this matter draws attention that those responsible should think carefully about posting before knowing the full facts.

Kind Regards

h.gricer

 

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, Noel said:

Wow 2h40mins Cork to Baltimore, must have been fairly slow trains. Can you imagine the summer traffic they might attract nowadays from tourists and back packers heading out to west cork and the coastal towns.

The P.W. on the West Cork was never designed for speed, the trains on the West Cork were slow even by Irish standards

In the 1960 WTT speed on the Baltimore-Skibbereen section was limited to 30mph with a maximum of 40mph between Skibbereen & Albert Quay. The AEC railcars were allowed a maximum of 50mph on the straights as there was no super-elevation on the curves.

 

[jhb171achill]

H Gricer, I suspect that you’re partly pointing your comments at me.

If not, please forgive my incorrect assumption.

If so, let me assure you that as a member of the IRRS for 45 years, and jhb171Senior being one of the first founding members, I have the greatest respect for the society’s activities. Many members (voluntary, as you say) have been of great assistance to me over many, many years, and several with whom I am in regular communication continue to be, with regard to future issues I’m researching.

If your comments regarding “thinking carefully” before posting are slanted towards me, rest assured that I am well aware of how the society works internally, and I do indeed “think” before posting.

I am not sure if you think that personally, I try to take “pops” at the society, but if so I will reiterate what I said above; as evidenced by agreeing this very day to do a couple of talks in the future.

As a volunteer in the RPSI and DCDR for virtually all my teen and adult life, I know very well the machinations, let us say, of the innards of a voluntary railway-interest body. I know well the frustrations, successes, and commitments of what, and how, volunteers put into these things.

Often, I sat at the top table at an AGM and had to listen to endless bitching, moaning and idiotic criticism of the voluntary activities and (volunteer) management decisions of the voluntary “workers” and, indeed (committee) “management” of both societies. Personally speaking, for me it was water off a duck’s back, and I thought (of the critic); “what would you know, I’ve a locomotive to light at 2 am on Saturday”.... or whatever!

There are two sides to all issues. Just as it’s not good enough to constantly bitch at, and criticise unpaid volunteers (clearly, you’d agree with that), there may be times when some issues within a society may justifiably be at least mentioned.

This includes ANY society. Your local golf club, the IRRS, ITG, RPSI or whoever.

I do know, and I fully accept this is purely my own personal view, that when involved in RPSI and DCDR management for some 25 years, when I heard of undue or unfair criticism of matters within my remit (usually finance, dining cars, health & safety, or operations), I might well have whinged back (!) but I would have privately given consideration as to whether the critic actually had a point or not - even if I, or the committee, didn’t particularly want to hear it.

The point here is that neither I (back in the day!), or any voluntary body I was involved in as a volunteer, or just a member of - is above criticism.

I doubt that a solitary person here does not appreciate the efforts of all volunteers.

The IRRS has been about for some 70 years, and thank goodness it has; the loss of material otherwise would be absolutely unthinkable. However, just as nonsensical  criticism is at best pointless, and at worst plain wrong, it is reasonable to allow that every single policy they’ve ever had, or every single individual involved over 70 years, is unlikely always to be right.

For any body, voluntary or not, to claim perfection (and I know you did not say this) would be equally nonsensical.

Personally, I have never publicly posted my opinions (to which, like all, I am perfectly entitled, like you), on how any of the railway bodies, IRRS included, are run - and I won’t; I’m sure you’d agree it’s inappropriate.

Nor, most certainly, have I ever named any individual in any of them, even if privately I would differ with their way of doing things.

You mentioned “someone” using the expression “squirrelling away” about donations of photographic collections. Anyone reading all this stuff will appreciate that this was my comment.

So, allow me to comment.

At no stage did I mention the IRRS. I remain holding my opinions on the IRRS policy regarding photos to myself. I have not stated them here and will not - other than to make the positive comment that I am confident that, among other things, the current conservation activities - voluntarily - within the society, are very much advanced in recent years.

There are a number of photographic repositories. They fall into six categories. First, three professional (NLI being one), and three private and / or voluntary (the IRRS and Ernie’s superb archive being examples).

Within both of these headings, three sub-divisions.

1. Those who make their collections unconditionally available to the public. Ernie, much appreciated by all here, is one.

2. Those who make their stuff available, but perhaps with conditions (eg you have to be a member, or (Lawrence / O’Dea collections) on payment of a fee - absolutely fair enough, of course.

3. And - those who retain all material donated, disseminating it periodically, selectively, only to certain people or entities, or whatever. Thus, “squirrelling away”. 

In (1) and (2), 100%, sure, totally justified. In (3), people are perfectly entitled to opinions as to whether or not this is good practice. People are entitled to express their opinions, civilly.

Again, I’ll keep my personal opinions to myself.

However, should anyone else see fit to express dissatisfaction with the policy of either the IRRS, NLI or any other individual or entity in connection with its stewardship of its collections, this is not necessarily a personal attack on anyone, thus not at all ”slanderous”.

I doubt if anyone here - certainly not me - has any intention of being slanderous.

As far as I am personally concerned, I hope this clears the air.

Now, maybe we’ll go back to West Cork, to keep on track, as it were, irrespective of 30 mph speed limits.....

[Irishswissernie]

I've acquired a Provincial Bus Timetable for Summer 1956. Services to Skibbereen or Bantry were  2 per day same as the train, Skibbereen via Bandon and Clonakilty, Bantry via Bandon, Drimoleague and on to Glengarriff (that name rings a bell!).

No early arrivals so no commuters etc.

Between Bandon & Cork and also Macroom and Cork the service increased to 13 each way on both routes with 3 arrivals before 9am so commuters were catered for. The railways had opted out of providing for this traffic.

I.m thinking of starting a "I remember when" topic in Blowing off steam, Just need to a.) do it and b.) Remember something! When I think back to the 1960's when I started out in Banking in 1966 it was completely different.

Ernie 

[Mike 84C]

I almost wish I had'nt asked the question.  Again I thank everyone who has so generously and freely helped in my quest.  Yes ,lets get back to West Cork and what a wonderful place to be.

            Mick

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Irishswissernie said:

I've acquired a Provincial Bus Timetable for Summer 1956. Services to Skibbereen or Bantry were  2 per day same as the train,.................,

3 arrivals before 9am so commuters were catered for. The railways had opted out of providing for this traffic.

 

Ernie 

I only have a handful of bus timetables, so I never thought to consult them. Thus, I was unaware that as WELL as the two trains, there were two buses....

Interesting!

While it’s never occurred to me before, I wonder how buses generally served “about to be closed” as well as recently closed locations.

What, for example, has the ‘56 bus timetable got to say about Kinsale and Macroom?

 

[Irishswissernie]

Scans attached, they are 'askew' to make them more readable. 

Ernie 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[jhb171achill]

The following is from 1955.

Now this Is very interesting to compare with the 1930 (all-steam) and 1960 (all-diesel*) timetables.

Here, the main line passenger trains are all diesel (AEC railcars), whereas ALL goods and branch mixed / passenger remain steam.

(Bar the odd steam extra or substitution; all REGULAR services were diesel then).

Some interesting observations.

1.  Was there still a loco based at Courtmacsherry, of all places? I doubt it, yet the timetable has a loco and goods going out of there in the morning and coming back midday. I would have guessed that it would have been better to have the Clonakilty loco just take any goods in there from the junction, and go back later? If there was not a loco based there, then a loco and van would have had to go in there and out again in advance of, and after, the daily goods train. Where did it come from - Clon Junction? And if so, why is it not listed as a light working?

2.  On the Clonakilty line, one engine, a goods van and a six-wheel passenger brake appear to have been stationed there. The loco and van do the first return trip, with the loco and brake coach doing the other two runs.

3.  The railcar set does two return trips on the Cork - Bantry route - fine. But the goods - one return train from Albert Quay to Bantry and back, and one, on the face of it, to Drimoleague. However, what happens next beggars belief, as I had noticed before:

4.   .....and that is this. Look at the Drimoleague to Baltimore service, crewing and locomotive requirements. It beggars belief that such complex and (to the travelling public) inefficient and downright pointless movements could replace rationality! The goods train could just continue and come back, a la Bantry, and a local passenger set could just do two workings from Baltimore to Drimoleague to meet the main line train there. But look.... firstly, apart from the disjointed workings during the day, which seem to treat Skibbereen to Baltimore as an entirely separate line, the 19:34 from Drimoleague only goes as far as Skibbereen. However, there is a 20:50 departure from Baltimore up to Skib and back, connecting with nothing. Does this mean that there is a loco stabled there (as late as 1955, anyway) just to do this? More likely, the 19:34 ex-Drimoleague just goes on to Baltimore light, but (a) why doesn't it just continue as a passenger train, and (b) why isn't any such working in the WTT?

5.  It appears that the goods engine from Cork to Drimloleague just goes back to Cork. Why not continue to Baltimore and then go back? A crew change, if required, wouldn't exactly be rocket science to organise.......

So, we have two locos on the Cork to Drim goods (they cross at Clon Jct), one on the Cork - Bantry return goods. A branch loco on the Clon and Court lines, apparently, and one or possibly two on Drim - Baltimore. Add a shunter at Albert Quay. Thus, without spare locos, the daily traffic requirement is some 7 or 8 locomotives, whereas after dieselisation this fell eventually to five "C" class. Five drivers instead of eight drivers, eight firemen and about 6 or 7 steam raisers.

 

AND - they’re all the right way up! Howzat!

 

Can we dare to imagine what a 121, a B101, an A or a modern ICR would have been like on the West Cork?

In the 1960s and 70s, it is likely that the line would have been monopolised by 141s with three-coach laminate trains, possibly providing a home for tin vans into the 1980s. Goods - apart from beet, you might have had fert and Guinness, and possibly oil traffic from Bantry. Oil liners? Pairs or 071s into Bantry? We can but dream. I can't help feeling that ordinary goods traffic would have died in 1975/6, though maybe a container terminal at Bandon would have figured into the 1980s.

 

Mind you, if open now, I daresay IE would treat it like Waterford to Limerick - doing their best to run it down by putting a 2600 on it, and substituting buses whenever they could!

Edited February 20, 2020 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

We’re off till the wilds’o’Donegal, hi!

In perusing this timetable this evening, I noticed something which raises a question. CDR timetables of this period contain two pages of the “General Rail Timetable”, five pages of connections via rail and ferry to Britain, six pages of bus services of the CDR and also LLSR, and THIRTY pages of advertisements for all manner of businesses across the county. With two to a page on most pages, that’s about 50 actual ads. Several are their own, as seen below. Among these is one for the refreshment rooms at Letterkenny, Strabane, Stranorlar and Rossnowlagh.

Now here’s a thing. Does anyone know what exactly these railway refreshment rooms typically sold? It seems that the railways ran their own, unlike today when such things are franchised out, so who operated the one at Strabane? The CDR or GNR? Or - did they EACH have one?

Was the Rossnowlagh one seasonal only?

 

It will also be noted that this timetable takes effect from the first day of closure of most of the Irish North, plus the Ballyshannon branch , yet they’re on the map, as are closed CDR and LLSR lines, marked as such.

[Mayner]

On 2/21/2020 at 11:11 AM, jhb171achill said:

The following is from 1955.

Now this Is very interesting to compare with the 1930 (all-steam) and 1960 (all-diesel*) timetables.

Here, the main line passenger trains are all diesel (AEC railcars), whereas ALL goods and branch mixed / passenger remain steam.

(Bar the odd steam extra or substitution; all REGULAR services were diesel then).

Some interesting observations.

1.  Was there still a loco based at Courtmacsherry, of all places? I doubt it, yet the timetable has a loco and goods going out of there in the morning and coming back midday. I would have guessed that it would have been better to have the Clonakilty loco just take any goods in there from the junction, and go back later? If there was not a loco based there, then a loco and van would have had to go in there and out again in advance of, and after, the daily goods train. Where did it come from - Clon Junction? And if so, why is it not listed as a light working?

2.  On the Clonakilty line, one engine, a goods van and a six-wheel passenger brake appear to have been stationed there. The loco and van do the first return trip, with the loco and brake coach doing the other two runs.

3.  The railcar set does two return trips on the Cork - Bantry route - fine. But the goods - one return train from Albert Quay to Bantry and back, and one, on the face of it, to Drimoleague. However, what happens next beggars belief, as I had noticed before:

4.   .....and that is this. Look at the Drimoleague to Baltimore service, crewing and locomotive requirements. It beggars belief that such complex and (to the travelling public) inefficient and downright pointless movements could replace rationality! The goods train could just continue and come back, a la Bantry, and a local passenger set could just do two workings from Baltimore to Drimoleague to meet the main line train there. But look.... firstly, apart from the disjointed workings during the day, which seem to treat Skibbereen to Baltimore as an entirely separate line, the 19:34 from Drimoleague only goes as far as Skibbereen. However, there is a 20:50 departure from Baltimore up to Skib and back, connecting with nothing. Does this mean that there is a loco stabled there (as late as 1955, anyway) just to do this? More likely, the 19:34 ex-Drimoleague just goes on to Baltimore light, but (a) why doesn't it just continue as a passenger train, and (b) why isn't any such working in the WTT?

5.  It appears that the goods engine from Cork to Drimloleague just goes back to Cork. Why not continue to Baltimore and then go back? A crew change, if required, wouldn't exactly be rocket science to organise.......

So, we have two locos on the Cork to Drim goods (they cross at Clon Jct), one on the Cork - Bantry return goods. A branch loco on the Clon and Court lines, apparently, and one or possibly two on Drim - Baltimore. Add a shunter at Albert Quay. Thus, without spare locos, the daily traffic requirement is some 7 or 8 locomotives, whereas after dieselisation this fell eventually to five "C" class. Five drivers instead of eight drivers, eight firemen and about 6 or 7 steam raisers.

 

AND - they’re all the right way up! Howzat!

 

Can we dare to imagine what a 121, a B101, an A or a modern ICR would have been like on the West Cork?

In the 1960s and 70s, it is likely that the line would have been monopolised by 141s with three-coach laminate trains, possibly providing a home for tin vans into the 1980s. Goods - apart from beet, you might have had fert and Guinness, and possibly oil traffic from Bantry. Oil liners? Pairs or 071s into Bantry? We can but dream. I can't help feeling that ordinary goods traffic would have died in 1975/6, though maybe a container terminal at Bandon would have figured into the 1980s.

 

Mind you, if open now, I daresay IE would treat it like Waterford to Limerick - doing their best to run it down by putting a 2600 on it, and substituting buses whenever they could!

I think that many enthusiasts fail to appreciate that CIE and GSR (post 1933) were transport as opposed to railway companies with a policy of replacing loss making rail with road services once it was practicable.

The West Cork and the majority of GSR/CIE branch and secondary lines were living on "borrowed time" once the GSR secured near monopoly powers over road transport services within the Free State from 1933 onwards.

In 1938 the GSR submitted a proposal to close 861 miles of uneconomic railway lines, including the entire West Cork system to a Government tribunal on the future of the railways in the Free State.

The Kinsale Branch closed completely in 1931 and the GSR proposed closing the Baltimore and Clonakilty lines in 1934 and had considered closing the Timoleague & Courtmacsharry as early as 1925. 

 

West Cork operation.

1. Courtmacsharry. The goods appears to have operated as required after passenger services closed with the Clonakilty Branch C Class operating the branch following dieselisation when the morning Clonakilty Junction-Clonakilty Mixed became a Mail Goods which worked the Courtmacsharry branch as required. 

Integrating the operation of the T&C and Clonakilty Branches in steam days would have been difficult due to the light axle loads and sharp curves on the branch. T&C branch locos were basically restricted to small contractors locos and ex-GSWR J30 0-6-0T until the Mid 1950s when MGWR J26 O-6-0T and later C Class diesels worked the branch. The Clonakilty line appears to have been mainly worked by ex-GSWR & DSER 2-4-2T in CIE days. 

The Weekly Circulars for cattle fairs and the Beet Season would have been interesting, did the "Bandon Tanks" work passenger, beet and cattle specials through from the Main Line to Ballinascarthy Junction, or did the Clonakilty or Courtmacsharry branch engine work trains from the T&C to Clonakilty Junction or even Albert Quay. Its believed that the J30 0-6-0s could only run light between Albert Quay and Ballinascarthy due to their small water tank capacity.

2. Baltimore

Skibbereen appears to have been considered to be the terminus of the main line until main line passenger services were diverted to Bantry following the introduction of the AEC railcars in the early 50s. 6 couple locos were also barred from operating on the Baltimore extension which would have prevented through running of Bandon Tanks between Albert Quay and Baltimore.

Its possible that the "Diesel Timetable" with the line apparently operated as two separate sub-branch lines may be a hangover from existing steam era working arrangements or shift patterns and would have helped to support the case that the West Cork lines were un-economic because of high operating costs. The most striking feature about the Baltimore diesel timetable is the absence of a morning service on the Extension apart from Saturdays

3. C Class Loco diagrams:

1960s WTT includes detail of Light Engine workings which helps to flesh out West Cork scheduled loco workings in its final years.

A total of 4 C Class appear to have been allocated to scheduled goods, mixed train and passenger workings on the West Cork, Motive Power Control had developed a practice of swapping locos between branch and main line duties most likely to minimise the risk of failures and breakdowns.

1. The loco of the 3:45 Cork-Bantry Goods returned light to Drimoleague at 8:45 to work the 9:40 Drimoleague-Cork Goods. 

2. The loco of the 7:00 Cork-Drimoleague Goods ran light to Bantry at 12:00 to work the 12:45 Bantry-Cork Goods

The loco of the 12:45 Bantry-Cork Goods works a Drimoleague-Skibbereen-Drimoleague  Mixed before departing for Cork at 4:40.

3. Drimoleague-Baltimore appears to have been worked by a single C Class based at Skibbereen.

4. Clonakilty Junction-Clonakilty working the T&C as required worked by a single C Class based at Clonakilty.

Irish Railfans News stated that the locos of the Up goods trains appear to have swapped power with the engine of the Clonakilty Branch train on a weekly basis in order to return the loco to Cork for for maintenance purposes, its likely that similar power swaps also took place at Drimoleague avoiding significant light engine milage.

 

 

 

 

[Broithe]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:11 PM, jhb171achill said:

AND - they’re all the right way up! Howzat!

Obviously, your account has been hacked.

[Westcorkrailway]

A very interesting thread where I unfortunately had not joined yet to partake in. it is on my bucket list among many things to aquire a GSR timetable between 1925-30. Ideally before 1927 when the passing loop in farrangalway was removed. What does of of these look like though? Are they like Early CIE WTT at all? 

[jhb171achill]

I can lend you a 1927 or 1926 one.

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

What does of of these look like though? Are they like Early CIE WTT at all? 

If you mean whether a 1927 WTT looks like a CIE one, while it’s a different page size & design, the origin of the CIE ones up to pretty much the 1970s goes back to the GSWR in the 1870s! The GSR copied that, and in turn copied it after 1945. 

I’ve never actually seen a CBSCR WTT.

[Westcorkrailway]

43 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If you mean whether a 1927 WTT looks like a CIE one, while it’s a different page size & design, the origin of the CIE ones up to pretty much the 1970s goes back to the GSWR in the 1870s! The GSR copied that, and in turn copied it after 1945. 

I’ve never actually seen a CBSCR WTT.

I have a GSR rulebook , and an appendix to the GSR WTT but not the actual timetable itself. One is a softback green with black writing and the other is green with black writing hardback. So I assumed the WTT was the same until stumbling upon this thread. something to look out for in a book fair or rail event and complete the set! 
 

a lot of the GSR stuff on eBay has that same green with black text design on it too, but no working timetables either. 
 

I haven’t heard of a Cork and Bandon WTT ever about either. I have a feeling many were binned/burned! There is surviving material from that era. But mostly letters and pamphlets/advertisements from the CBSCR which would not have been stored in Albert quay offices rather things members of the public would have gotten. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I have a GSR rulebook , and an appendix to the GSR WTT but not the actual timetable itself. One is a softback green with black writing and the other is green with black writing hardback. So I assumed the WTT was the same until stumbling upon this thread.

The WTT was (is) the employee's timetable. As well as public passenger trains, it provides details of ALL train movements, be they goods, light engine or empty stock. In addition, paths are shown for trains which can or might run, but do not do so regularly. At the start of this thread I posted a few examples for West Cork.

If you wish, I can post you copies I have, or you're welcom to call with me by arrangement any time you're up Dublin way. I have a full set, as far as the former CBSCR is concerned, from 1926 until closure, with just a couple in the 1950s missing - tho9ugh - the particular missing ones would tell you nothing that the years either side of them didn't. Ping me privately if interested.