Feast or Famine - Passenger Stock for A's and 121's

[DJ Dangerous]

With the Irish model railway market so small, it seems to be a feast or famine, either too much coaching stock sitting on shelves and no locos available to haul it, or lots of locos available and no passenger stock for them to haul.

I recently cleared out most of Chris Dyer's Cravens, with the arrival of the A's and 121's impending.

So, a question:

What coaching stock would have been compatible with the largest number of both forthcoming models, ie what would have run the longest?

I'm assuming that it was the Cravens? They ran from something like 1965 until 2006? So would go pretty well with a lot of the version of both locos.

If so, is it likely that we will see somebody release more Cravens models over the next six or twelve months, to give these lovely locos something to haul?

[DiveController]

The 1950s CIE-built coaching stock of which there were many variants open and side corridor, composite, diners and brakes lasted into the 80s before being fully replace by the Mk2s and ultimately the Mk3s in the mid 80s. As a group this is the most interesting for me.

After that the cravens and Park royal also lasted into the 80s and even 90s, some Cravens still in secondary use until the 2000s. These form a more uniform coaching stock for rakes. Of course they all need brakes which aren't available, like the recent dilemma with the weedsprayer and weed spraying rake.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Were there a lot more variants of the 1950's-built stock than there were variants of the Cravens?

So the 1950's stock ran for about thirty years?

And the Cravens thirty to forty years?

[jhb171achill]

WAAAAY more variants!

By comparison the Cravens had virtually none!

In 1965, you’d get the following in passenger trains:

- Timber-bodied coaches of GNR and GSWR origin. Hardly two alike!!

- Laminates of maybe a dozen different designs including several body side profiles.

- Park Royals of several variants externally and internally.

- Bredins of several types.

- Ex-GNR coaches, mostly K15s but other variants.

Livery wise, about 65% black’n’tan, the rest green though a very small number of 1956 laminates still in very shabby “silver”.

And we haven’t even started on mail vehicles, dining cars, parcels and heating vans!

[DJ Dangerous]

So would Cravens be an easier coaching model for a manufacturer to produce, to fill the coaching stock void that exists for the A's and 121's, since there were so few varieties and they covered a long period?

[Noel]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

WAAAAY more variants!

By comparison the Cravens had virtually none!

In 1965, you’d get the following in passenger trains:

- Timber-bodied coaches of GNR and GSWR origin. Hardly two alike!!

- Laminates of maybe a dozen different designs including several body side profiles.

- Park Royals of several variants externally and internally.

- Bredins of several types.

- Ex-GNR coaches, mostly K15s but other variants.

Livery wise, about 65% black’n’tan, the rest green though a very small number of 1956 laminates still in very shabby “silver”.

And we haven’t even started on mail vehicles, dining cars, parcels and heating vans!

Yes impossible for any manufacturer to make money producing such diversity due lack of volume. Cravens were relative new modern coaches at the time way ahead of the Laminates, Bredins and Park Royals for modernity. Park Royals may just be popular enough for some volume as they were used pre-dart, on main line routes and later suburban sets (eg Maynooth, etc). Irish Market just too small. The glass is more than half full, we have RTR Cravens and RTR mk2d coaches, and many have collected IFM Park Royals and IFM Laminates as well as JM Design kits to modify Dapol coaches. The Cravens and mk2d were hauled by A class. The ultimate main line passenger train had no two coaches alike and were a wonderful mix of diverse coach bodies. I remember travelling on them well.

[DiveController]

12 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So would Cravens be an easier coaching model for a manufacturer to produce, to fill the coaching stock void that exists for the A's and 121's, since there were so few varieties and they covered a long period?

I guess that's up to the manufacturer but there is a definite void for high quality rtr coaches to run with several of the A classes that will emerge very shortly. The Cravens have been produced by MM but only in BnT livery.

Park Royal coaches were introduced about 1955. I don't recall off hand if they were ever liveried in silver but certainly in green and later in BnT. There were two variants mainline and suburban.The Cravens were not introduced until almost a decade later, hence their modernity, leaving Silver, light green, dark green, and potentially early Black and Black with yellow panel A classes without much in the way of rtr rolling stock. I suspect a PR coach in green and BnT would be worthwhile for a manufacturer to produce.

 I suspect a rerun or updated Cravens might sell too. There seems to be some market but I don't know how large. Personally I have 2 rakes of Cravens so I probably would not buy more but I understand newer modelers may have missed out and these are now sought after by some.

As for CIE built stock, I'm not sure. IRM took the 42' flat chassis and placed a ton of difference freight options on top. Most were modern era which may be more popular. A 61'6 coach chassis with various bodyshells in several liveries that lasted over 30 years might be possible. Personally I need rakes of them but I really don't know. We live in hope for those thing and of course 21mm track  

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by DiveController

[Noel]

If there was ever a future re-run of the cravens it would be nice to have the NEM pockets on the bogies corrected. It's a disaster zone requiring bodging surgery which is not really acceptable on a €45 model, instead of just plugging in alternate couplings such as hunt or kadee's at the correct height and distance. Not having NEM pockets at the correct position can be very annoying for customers. 

[DiveController]

Well strangely some cravens on the Bay are going for way more than that at the moment, dodgy NEM pockets or not 

[DJ Dangerous]

So the first ten years of the A have no compatible RTR coaching stock, even with a run of Cravens.

Quite a dilemma for a manufacturer, on which to produce.

1 minute ago, Noel said:

If there was ever a future re-run of the cravens it would be nice to have the NEM pockets on the bogies corrected. It's a disaster zone requiring bodging surgery which is not really acceptable on a €45 model, instead of just plugging in alternate couplings such as hunt or kadee's at the correct height and distance. Not having NEM pockets at the correct position can be very annoying for customers. 

What's wrong with the height of them? My Cravens and locos couple together grand, with the OEM TLC's.

I'd rather see some blue and cream ones and some blue ones added to the mix.

Just now, DiveController said:

Well strangely some cravens on the Bay are going for way more than that at the moment, dodgy NEM pockets or not 

€160 a pop plus postage!

[DiveController]

Well if you look at the alternative to rtr for the 1955-1963/5 period, there are some nice brass etched overlays by JM designs and simple resin kits/rtr from other manufacturers like IFM.

There is a lot of work to do that you could channel elsewhere in modeling and the price point for small resin coaches by IFM is still relatively high for a complete model to a moderate standard. 

Edited September 6, 2020 by DiveController

[murphaph]

The Park Royals would make a fair bit of sense. They had long careers, like the Cravens and even serve in preservation so you can have a modern RPSI train pulling a couple of them in the rake. I would certainly take 2 rakes of PRs if they were ever released in RTR.

I would second Noel's comment about the NEM pocket height. If you look at the Kadee FAQ it says to the question "Why don't you make offset NEM couplers?"-"NEM pockets should already be at the correct height. Offset couplers look wrong so we don't make them". Hard to argue with them though the reality, especially in the UK (rarely with continental stock) is that NEM pocket heights can be hit and miss so I wish Kadee would sully themselves and just make the damn offset couplers lol.

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Well if you look at the alternative to rtr for the 1955-1963/5 period, there are some nice brass etched overlays by JM designs and simple resin kits/rtr from other manufacturers like IFM.

There is a lot of work to do that you could channel elsewhere in modeling and the price point for small resin coaches by IFM is still relatively high for a complete model to a moderate standard. 

It sometimes takes me weeks to find time to even unbox an RTR item, so kits wouldn't interest me at all. Maybe in thirty years time when I've already given up on life.

 

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The Park Royals would make a fair bit of sense. They had long careers, like the Cravens and even serve in preservation so you can have a modern RPSI train pulling a couple of them in the rake. I would certainly take 2 rakes of PRs if they were ever released in RTR.

I would second Noel's comment about the NEM pocket height. If you look at the Kadee FAQ it says to the question "Why don't you make offset NEM couplers?"-"NEM pockets should already be at the correct height. Offset couplers look wrong so we don't make them". Hard to argue with them though the reality, especially in the UK (rarely with continental stock) is that NEM pocket heights can be hit and miss so I wish Kadee would sully themselves and just make the damn offset couplers lol.

Wouldn't that mean that the couplers on the new batch of Cravens would be at the wrong height relative to the current Cravens? As in, mixing the new batch with the old batch in the same rake would be difficult?

[murphaph]

Yep but two wrongs don't make a right lol!

For TLCs the difference is probably irrelevant though. It kicks in when you start using the likes of Kadees where the knuckles can slip by each other if not at the same height.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, murphaph said:

Yep but two wrongs don't make a right lol!

For TLCs the difference is probably irrelevant though. It kicks in when you start using the likes of Kadees where the knuckles can slip by each other if not at the same height.

That's fighting talk! Two wrongs always make a right!

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, DiveController said:

I guess that's up to the manufacturer but there is a definite void for high quality rtr coaches to run with several of the A classes that will emerge very shortly. The Cravens have been produced by MM but only in BnT livery.

Park Royal coaches were introduced about 1955. I don't recall off hand if they were ever liveried in silver but certainly in green and later in BnT. There were two variants mainline and suburban.The Cravens were not introduced until almost a decade later, hence their modernity, leaving Silver, light green, dark green, and potentially early Black and Black with yellow panel A classes without much in the way of rtr rolling stock. I suspect a PR coach in green and BnT would be worthwhile for a manufacturer to produce.

In all reality, if a manufacturer was to produce a RTR version of even half of what was running in the life of the "A" or B121 class - even in the 1960s alone - there would be a "new release" from now until Donald tells the truth.....

There were various types of laminates, and while less so, several variants or PRs as well, as other have alluded to above.

What would be best would be maybe three or four models over a period, which along with the existing Cravens would allow MOST variants; with an accurate train being possible with one each of them, plus one Craven - in other words, the haphazard mix that was not just normal, but almost without exception.

Two varieties of laminate in silver, 1955 green*, and black'n'tan. That's 6 variants of two models.

One variety of PR in 1955 green*, black'n'tan, and black'n'tan with the mid-waist white line as added to no more than the last half-dozen or so of them in traffic about 1989 / 90, until the very last two were withdrawn in 1994. (One is No. 1944, now at Downpatrick). Comment was made about silver: the overwhelming majority entered service in the 1955 green* - in fact, it seems they were the first coaching stock to get this livery - and silver bogies. However, while I have yet to see any firm evidence of it, there is a possibility that at least the first few were silver - if so, they didn't stay that way long.

If we discount the silver, we've three variants, one model.

It is important to remember that when the "A" class were green, all coaches were too, apart from the odd old silver one. When the B121s were introduced in 1961, ALL carriages were green.

The black'n'tan carriage livery appeared on a small few vehicles in 1962, but they were few and far between. It seems that over the winter of 1962/3, a concerted effort was made to start painting things black'n'tan, but by 1965, most photos show that barely two thirds of the coaching stock had the new livery - trains of 50 / 50 green / BnT, or even majority green, could still be seen. Thus, when an "A" or a "C" is carrying the all-black livery, with or without a yellow patch, or the FIRST black and tan variant, green carriages are obligatory. 

The last carriages in green appear to have been repainted about 1967/8, at much the same time as the last grey 121 was repainted too, and just before the re-engined "A" class "transplants" appeared.

Thus, once we are running A34R instead of A34, everything is black'n'tan, but before that, and with grey 121s, something green is needed for accuracy.

I digress, as you well know I am prone to do so, on livery details - but I suppose that my point is that if we ever get RTR versions or a laminate or Park Royal, and if the intention is to run them with a green, silver, black, or Crossley BnT "A" class, or a grey 121, then green variants of the RTR coach are absolutely a necessity. No grey 121 is ever likely to have hauled a train made up of nothing BUT a sleek line of BnT Cravens!

(* By 1955 green I mean the lighter shade seen in recent years on the RPSI "Dublin Heritage Set", not the earlier darker green (like CIE buses, or my avatar thingy on the left. Flying snails were applied to many, but certainly not all, especially any repainted green between 1959 and 1962).

[Buz]

Hi all

Well considering the coach runs are not long enough to allow for me to first find out then purchase a rake over time I don't have a complete train and given E bay price madness and the fact they don't show up often probably never will.

I would suggest that having a constant 1st, standard / 3rd and catering coach also a brake end.

In whatever coaches lasted the longest covering the maximum number of eras Cravens ??

These could be painted in the successive liveries giving max production life on the mold hopefully reduce the cost a fraction making them more accessible.

Then if you can't get one you can get one of the others, OK it may mean mixed colors in a rake but at least a full rake would be possible taking into account the kit manufactures offerings fill the gap.

Having the common 4wh wagons like open, van and brake constantly available would also be handy and wagons are even more problematic given the even wider variations but the need for them is greater than coaches.

If a small core production of RTR rolling-stock every one could use was possible then the market would grow allowing for others to be added over time.

Locomotives are pretty useless without a train to go with them just ask me I will tell you.

I have two Irish locomotives without complete trains and little to none chance of getting them .

A problem I see as getting a lot worse before it gets any better if it ever does.

regards John

[Noel]

10 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So the first ten years of the A have no compatible RTR coaching stock, even with a run of Cravens.

Quite a dilemma for a manufacturer, on which to produce.

What's wrong with the height of them? My Cravens and locos couple together grand, with the OEM TLC's.

I'd rather see some blue and cream ones and some blue ones added to the mix.

€160 a pop plus postage!

The NEM pockets are neither at the correct internationally agreed height nor horizontal distance as per NEM specifications, but you are correct it only affects people who replace the couplings with Kadee couplings or perhaps hunt couplings. Kadee’s are populare with modellers for four five reasons: a) look visually less obtrusive than TLCs (tension lock couplings), b) they are much more reliable for automatic coupling and in particular automatic uncoupling (ie for shunting and marshalling stock),  c) they are more reliable for pushing stock (ie reversing around bends, reversing over complicated point work), d) allow much closer couplings instead of the non-scale 4ft seen on many model trains using TLCs, especially with coaching stock that suffer slack and large gaps between coaches., and e) you can vertically pick up and remove any rolling stock item from a train formation with ease (ie instead of the tangled mess of TLCs).
 

There’s a thread here about kadee conversions: 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Noel

[NIR]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

What would be best would be maybe three or four models over a period, which along with the existing Cravens would allow MOST variants; with an accurate train being possible with one each of them, plus one Craven - in other words, the haphazard mix that was not just normal, but almost without exception.

Good thought, nobody really needs a full set of anything before Cravens, it's the liveries that are more important, and they were mixed too!

Edited September 7, 2020 by NIR

[DJ Dangerous]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

What would be best would be maybe three or four models over a period, which along with the existing Cravens would allow MOST variants; with an accurate train being possible with one each of them, plus one Craven - in other words, the haphazard mix that was not just normal, but almost without exception.

Two varieties of laminate in silver, 1955 green*, and black'n'tan. That's 6 variants of two models.

One variety of PR in 1955 green*, black'n'tan, and black'n'tan with the mid-waist white line as added to no more than the last half-dozen or so of them in traffic about 1989 / 90, until the very last two were withdrawn in 1994. (One is No. 1944, now at Downpatrick). Comment was made about silver: the overwhelming majority entered service in the 1955 green* - in fact, it seems they were the first coaching stock to get this livery - and silver bogies. However, while I have yet to see any firm evidence of it, there is a possibility that at least the first few were silver - if so, they didn't stay that way long.

If we discount the silver, we've three variants, one model.

It is important to remember that when the "A" class were green, all coaches were too, apart from the odd old silver one. When the B121s were introduced in 1961, ALL carriages were green.

The black'n'tan carriage livery appeared on a small few vehicles in 1962, but they were few and far between. It seems that over the winter of 1962/3, a concerted effort was made to start painting things black'n'tan, but by 1965, most photos show that barely two thirds of the coaching stock had the new livery - trains of 50 / 50 green / BnT, or even majority green, could still be seen. Thus, when an "A" or a "C" is carrying the all-black livery, with or without a yellow patch, or the FIRST black and tan variant, green carriages are obligatory. 

The last carriages in green appear to have been repainted about 1967/8, at much the same time as the last grey 121 was repainted too, and just before the re-engined "A" class "transplants" appeared.

Thus, once we are running A34R instead of A34, everything is black'n'tan, but before that, and with grey 121s, something green is needed for accuracy.

 

4 hours ago, Buz said:

Locomotives are pretty useless without a train to go with them just ask me I will tell you.

I have two Irish locomotives without complete trains and little to none chance of getting them .

A problem I see as getting a lot worse before it gets any better if it ever does.

 

So, if a manufacturer were to release two Laminate models, each of those in three different liveries, would it satisfy both the modellers desires for coaching stock from the 1950's through to the 1990's, and more importantly, would the manufacturer be able to run a large enough batch of each to keep the product affordable?

 

2 hours ago, Noel said:

The NEM pockets are neither at the correct internationally agreed height nor horizontal distance as per NEM specifications, but you are correct it only affects people who replace the couplings with Kadee couplings or perhaps hunt couplings. Kadee’s are populare with modellers for four five reasons: a) look visually less obtrusive than TLCs (tension lock couplings), b) they are much more reliable for automatic coupling and in particular automatic uncoupling (ie for shunting and marshalling stock),  c) they are more reliable for pushing stock (ie reversing around bends, reversing over complicated point work), d) allow much closer couplings instead of the non-scale 4ft seen on many model trains using TLCs, especially with coaching stock that suffer slack and large gaps between coaches., and e) you can vertically pick up and remove any rolling stock item from a train formation with ease (ie instead of the tangled mess of TLCs).
 

There’s a thread here about kadee conversions: 

 

 

I didn't realise that Kadee's were so NASA like as to have international standards etc. I was thinking more of their compatibility with current Cravens and locos, rather than with stock that they'd never be coupled to. As MP mentioned, would two wrongs make a right? Don't worry, I have OCD so I understand the obsession with uniformity, but I'm thinking of this from a practical or manufacturing point of view. A new coach is probably more likely to be coupled to a Cravens than to a class 37.

 

Slightly off topic, on my own thread, so I guess I should punish myself for this, but why do the Cravens models have a much nicer paint finish than the ST Mk2D's?

Is it that the Cravens were painted whereas the Mk2D's were moulded but not painted?

If so, would the aforementioned two laminate models be better painted three different liveries or moulded from three different colour plastics?

Were the interiors similar in colour for the three different exterior liveries?

[Buz]

4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Slightly off topic, on my own thread, so I guess I should punish myself for this, but why do the Cravens models have a much nicer paint finish than the ST Mk2D's?

Is it that the Cravens were painted whereas the Mk2D's were moulded but not painted?

If so, would the aforementioned two laminate models be better painted three different liveries or moulded from three different colour plastics?

Were the interiors similar in colour for the three different exterior liveries?

( In my highly biased opinion ) As long as the first two RTR laminates are catering and a composite or single class brake end.

I would suggest high standard painted would be best for the outside orange and black with single white stripe

with the same high standard of painted finish out side for other liveries produced

That way its just load the machine safety check hit start produce number of coaches required to fill orders send to assembly and finishing departments.

Then off to the happy customers with minimal messing about where multiple liveries are required a manufacturer would probably knock them out in batches of the same livery at a time to minimize material wastage

i would suggest Not Knowing for sure that the different era's would have different colors for interior fittings the separate classes certainly would the colors of interiors are not as critical as having the right interior in the right coach .

If enough of a particular coach are being produced changing the color of the molded plastic interiors to suit era is not such a big deal the main thing is that the interior is there to begin with.

regards John

[jhb171achill]

Interesting thoughts, folks.

A few comments - in terms of rakes, the mixed rake is EXACTLY what is appropriate, not uniform rakes of one type.

It is important to remember that a full train of a single type of coach was almost unknown. Carriages were built in small batches, not like today - and these batches almost always had minor, and more often MAJOR, variations.

Thus it was rarely remotely possible to make up a uniform rake, even if they had wanted to.

This is PRECISELY the reason that the band of colour between waist and above-window-level was BLACK - to disguise the mis-matching variety.

Colour-wise, up to 1966 and a bit beyond, a mix of green and black’n’tan coaches is the norm, thus one of this and one of that is quite appropriate.

Again, grey 121s started out with ONLY green stock, and by the time the last of them was being repainted black’n’tan there were still a FEW green coaches about.

In terms of catering and brake vehicles, it is worth bearing in mind that a 2400-series  dining car would really be the only show in town. HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of Irish trains did not have a catering service, so the inclusion of a dining car is not necessary to be authentic. Given that nobody will buy a “rake” of dining cars, it is almost certainly unviable.

Finally, a brake vehicle is mentioned above. It is worth pointing out that in the period when the “grey’n’green” era was changing over to the “black’n’tan” era, almost every single solitary passenger train had the four and six-wheeled heating & luggage vans, also known as “hooded vans” / “tin vans” / “genny vans” / “hot water bottles”.

Use of a brake standard coach, for example, is MUCH rarer, Thus there weren’t too many compared, say, with Britain.

Carriages  were ALL steam-heated prior to 1972, and a heating van was therefore necessary.

The guard travelled in it too. 

Therefore, if modellers are serious about the very welcome development of “going forward into the sixties”, with it without backing of the manufacturing world, a “tin van” Model for the end of trains (FAR more si than a bogie brake), is absolutely essential.

Bogie “genny vans” (both “Dutch” and BR types) only appeared in 1969/70 or so. 
 

So a typical, appropriate, Irish train for use with grey 121s or silver, green or black “A”s will be a mix of -

Craven

Laminate

Park Royal

Tin Van.

Livery variations of the last 3 of those 4 will allow for seven different vehicles. Add another Laminate & PR and you’ve a nine coach train - away from the Belfast and Cork lines, few were ever longer.

For the end of the train, as Buz referred to, tin van(s). Quite often one at each end - one heating and one luggage / guard.

[Mayner]

There is always the Silver Fox 1951-53 stock they appear to pass the 2' rule until someone produces a more accurate rtr model or a kit. The Buffet Cars were used on Intercity Trains with conventional stock until the introduction of the Craven Snack Cars in the late 1980s, the Corridor and Open Standards and Brake Standards were mainly used on suburban, secondary main line and branch line services after the introduction of the MK2D stock and were phased out during the early 1980s.

The main problem from a rtr manufacturers point of view is that there is no CIE equivalent of the British Rail MK1 coach with 3-4 body variations that will sell in large numbers.

The  Laminates built in the late 1950s are the nearest thing to a standard design of main line and suburban coach built in large numbers in at least 5 basic body variations, but no matching catering vehicles.

There is also the little matter of the absence of suitable rtr heating vans to run with conventional stock apart from the Silver Fox offerings.

There is always the option of assembling a kit or scratchbuilding stock to fill the gaps in the market.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Mayner

[Buz]

Hi jhb171achill

Yes not many pretty rakes around usually mixed, pretty rakes are very much a modern thing, or Model Railway Thing.

I am very much in the I have an idea of what a train should be seat but?

Just not specificaly an Irish one,  a catering coach is on my want list, you can't make up a long distance train without one even if its only a four coach train working on the Irish trains are short theory,  defiantly not 16 or more coaches we get on long distance trains.

A brake end coach may be rare but I would think most model rail trains would be to short to justify two generator coaches of whatever description but I believe Ireland like other places in the world is supposed to have a proper guards compartment each end of a passenger train.

So I bow to those with superior knowledge on that one.

I just have the point of view that if the locomotives are made RTR then at least a small well chosen core of RTR rolling stock in appropriate liveries should be made to go with them.

Two train loads one goods the other passenger which should be able to be done with a very small selection of stock all I care about is finishing the trains I have or rather don't have so the locomotives where not a wasted purchase

Hmm I think my frustrations are really showing

regards John

 

[Noel]

11 hours ago, Buz said:

Hi all

Well considering the coach runs are not long enough to allow for me to first find out then purchase a rake over time I don't have a complete train and given E bay price madness and the fact they don't show up often probably never will.

. . .

A problem I see as getting a lot worse before it gets any better if it ever does.

regards John

In fairness it is possible for most folk to have collected a complete train of the following until fairly recently for some models:

• RTR Tara wagons CURRENT
• RTR Fertiliser Wagons CURRENT
• RTR Bell 42ft containers CURRENT
• RTR Cement Wagons CURRENT
• RTR Ballast Wagons (future rerun not too far off perhaps) 
• RTR MM Mk2d Super Train Livery CURRENT
• RTR MM Cravens (available at sane prices up to about 18months ago)
• RTR Silverfox Mk3 coaches CURRENT
• RTR Silverfox 1950s laminate look-a-likes (2ft rule passes the duck test) Green or B&T Livery CURRENT
• RTR Chris Dyer respray Mk3 coaches CURRENT
• RTR Chris Dyer respary Mk4 Coaches  CURRENT
• RTR IFM Cement Pallet Wagons
• Kit MIR Cement Pallet Wagons CURRENT
• kir MIR Dopside Cement Pallet Wagons CURRENT
• Kit + RTR IFM Park Royals Green or B&T Livery CURRENT
• Kit + RTR IFM CIE Laminates Green or B&T Livery
• Kit JM Design brass overlays for Dapol RTR coaches (CIE 1950s coaches inc some ex-GSR) CURRENT
• RTR SIlverfox various GSVs, TPOs, HLVs CURRENT
• RTR IFM TPOs, HLVs,
• RTR D&M Models Deitrick Enterprise coaches (out of production) 
• Various Dapol + Bachmann RTR 2 axle vans resprayed and with CIE transfers CURRENT
• Kit Provincal Wagons Beet wagons (Bulleif 2 axle open corrugated wagons) CURRENT
• kit Provincal Wagons Double beet wagons (2 axle) CURRENT
• Bachmann RPSI mk2a Green (ebay)
• Bachmann mk2a intercity orange (ebay)
• RPSI (MM) Cravens Blue'n'Cream livery
• Dart ECM trains CURRENT

We've never had it so good thanks to Murphy Models who started the whole Irish scene off,  IFM, Silverfox, MIR, JM designs, and now IRM for taking up the baton and driving forward to new heights and an ever rapidly growing portfolio of superb Irish Models, Bill Bedford, Worsley, Bachmann, etc.  Give it time, more will come, some re-runs may happen in time, ebay can work if you are patient and wait for sensible deals and prices.

Personally I feel very fortunate with my timing when getting back into the hobby only 6 years ago. I do understand some ebay prices are high right now, but that won't last forever. Fortunately I managed to build up a fleet of baby GMs about 4 years ago never paying more than €120, and over time collected various 1950s coaches from DIY resprays to IFM kits + RTR, plus silver fox, etc. It was easiest to build up rakes of 1955-1970 goods wagons by kit bashing inexpensive Bachmann, hornby and Dapol RTR 2 axles wagons, later added to by Provincial Wagons resin kits plus IFM, not to mention IRM Cement wagons. I also have modern era freight wagons from IRM (eg 42ft, Tara's, Fertiliser, etc). The trains I run most of the time are 1955-1974 (ie before the CIE modernisation program, before uniform rakes of passenger or goods stock took over the railways).

 

My favourite era circa 1968

 

This rake is made up of different coaches and ones even have a modern Craven.

It is possible to model 1950s to 1970s

Ok a 'boob' here with a few tippex Cravens of the post 1987 IE/IR Era

 

A 'feast' thanks to fortunate timing 

A 'knock' special scene. East meets west, modern mk2d stock in the passing loops surrounded by older stock

Conclusion - We've never had it so good and IRM are only just getting started. You never know Bachmann looking over the fence at IRM's success may even inspire them to relaunch some models for the Irish Market in the future.

"If" I was granted 3 wishes by a fairy railway modeller it would be:

1. IRM CIE Park Royal mainline Coach B&T
2. IRM IR/IE Mk3 intercity coach
3. IRM 2 axle CIE H-Van

The glass is not half empty, nor is the glass half full, it is overflowing, thanks to the original catalyst and stimulus MM created and later raised and expanded by IRM

[mphoey]

to add my tuppence worth to this

I would like to see coaches that are still around for irm to copy easily plus that have multiple livery options

the laminate and the park royal would both fit this option 

but we also need proper steam heating and generating vans as well 

which can easily be the BR vans and also our own 1916 brake which is a laminate base design.

in modern terms the DE Detrich stock is possibly the only one to carry a couple of liveries as the MK4 has not .

[DJ Dangerous]

49 minutes ago, Noel said:

In fairness it is possible for most folk to have collected a complete train of the following until fairly recently for some models:

• RTR Tara wagons CURRENT
• RTR Fertiliser Wagons CURRENT
• RTR Bell 42ft containers CURRENT
• RTR Cement Wagons CURRENT
• RTR Ballast Wagons (future rerun not too far off perhaps) 
• RTR MM Mk2d Super Train Livery CURRENT
• RTR MM Cravens (available at sane prices up to about 18months ago)
• RTR Silverfox Mk3 coaches CURRENT
• RTR Silverfox 1950s laminate look-a-likes (2ft rule passes the duck test) Green or B&T Livery CURRENT
• RTR Chris Dyer respray Mk3 coaches CURRENT
• RTR Chris Dyer respary Mk4 Coaches  CURRENT
• RTR IFM Cement Pallet Wagons
• Kit MIR Cement Pallet Wagons CURRENT
• kir MIR Dopside Cement Pallet Wagons CURRENT
• Kit + RTR IFM Park Royals Green or B&T Livery CURRENT
• Kit + RTR IFM CIE Laminates Green or B&T Livery
• Kit JM Design brass overlays for Dapol RTR coaches (CIE 1950s coaches inc some ex-GSR) CURRENT
• RTR SIlverfox various GSVs, TPOs, HLVs CURRENT
• RTR IFM TPOs, HLVs,
• RTR D&M Models Deitrick Enterprise coaches (out of production) 
• Various Dapol + Bachmann RTR 2 axle vans resprayed and with CIE transfers CURRENT
• Kit Provincal Wagons Beet wagons (Bulleif 2 axle open corrugated wagons) CURRENT
• kit Provincal Wagons Double beet wagons (2 axle) CURRENT
• Bachmann RPSI mk2a Green (ebay)
• Bachmann mk2a intercity orange (ebay)
• RPSI (MM) Cravens Blue'n'Cream livery
• Dart ECM trains CURRENT

We've never had it so good thanks to Murphy Models who started the whole Irish scene off,  IFM, Silverfox, MIR, JM designs, and now IRM for taking up the baton and driving forward to new heights and an ever rapidly growing portfolio of superb Irish Models, Bill Bedford, Worsley, Bachmann, etc.  Give it time, more will come, some re-runs may happen in time, ebay can work if you are patient and wait for sensible deals and prices.

Personally I feel very fortunate with my timing when getting back into the hobby only 6 years ago. I do understand some ebay prices are high right now, but that won't last forever. Fortunately I managed to build up a fleet of baby GMs about 4 years ago never paying more than €120, and over time collected various 1950s coaches from DIY resprays to IFM kits + RTR, plus silver fox, etc. It was easiest to build up rakes of 1955-1970 goods wagons by kit bashing inexpensive Bachmann, hornby and Dapol RTR 2 axles wagons, later added to by Provincial Wagons resin kits plus IFM, not to mention IRM Cement wagons. I also have modern era freight wagons from IRM (eg 42ft, Tara's, Fertiliser, etc). The trains I run most of the time are 1955-1974 (ie before the CIE modernisation program, before uniform rakes of passenger or goods stock took over the railways).

 

My favourite era circa 1968

 

This rake is made up of different coaches and ones even have a modern Craven.

It is possible to model 1950s to 1970s

Ok a 'boob' here with a few tippex Cravens of the post 1987 IE/IR Era

 

A 'feast' thanks to fortunate timing 

A 'knock' special scene. East meets west, modern mk2d stock in the passing loops surrounded by older stock

Conclusion - We've never had it so good and IRM are only just getting started. You never know Bachmann looking over the fence at IRM's success may even inspire them to relaunch some models for the Irish Market in the future.

"If" I was granted 3 wishes by a fairy railway modeller it would be:

1. IRM CIE Park Royal mainline Coach B&T
2. IRM IR/IE Mk3 intercity coach
3. IRM 2 axle CIE H-Van

The glass is not half empty, nor is the glass half full, it is overflowing, thanks to the original catalyst and stimulus MM created and later raised and expanded by IRM

 

Sadly, most of the RTR stock that you have listed is not current.

Tara's, Cravens, Fertilizer wagons, Container Liners, Ballasts etc are NOT available.

Private sellers will pop up with things from time to time, usually asking for three times the real value, but as there are no guarantees, they can't be considered "current".

Even the Super Train Mk2D's that are available have no EGV's available to match, so they're only borderline current stock.

From an RTR perspective, we NEED new coaching stock released for the A's and 121's. That's kind of where this thread was aimed.

[StevieB]

I’ve never directly answered the question ‘is the glass half full or half empty?’, preferring the engineering answer ‘it’s twice as big as it needs to be’.

Stephen

[Warbonnet]

6 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Sadly, most of the RTR stock that you have listed is not current.

Tara's, Cravens, Fertilizer wagons, Container Liners, Ballasts etc are NOT available.

Private sellers will pop up with things from time to time, usually asking for three times the real value, but as there are no guarantees, they can't be considered "current".

Even the Super Train Mk2D's that are available have no EGV's available to match, so they're only borderline current stock.

From an RTR perspective, we NEED new coaching stock released for the A's and 121's. That's kind of where this thread was aimed.

It doesnt mean they wont be offered in a new run again though. The toolings exists, so "we have the technology" as they say!

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, Warbonnet said:

It doesnt mean they wont be offered in a new run again though. The toolings exists, so "we have the technology" as they say!

[mphoey]

1 hour ago, Warbonnet said:

It doesnt mean they wont be offered in a new run again though. The toolings exists, so "we have the technology" as they say!

but will paddy murphy do them as he was offically supposed to retire after the 121s or will irm be able to use the moulds

 

[DJ Dangerous]

9 minutes ago, mphoey said:

but will paddy murphy do them as he was offically supposed to retire after the 121s or will irm be able to use the moulds

 

Would they then be IRMM coaches instead of IRM or MM?

[jhb171achill]

“RPM”

= Retired Paddy Models....

[jhb171achill]

13 hours ago, Buz said:

................  a catering coach is on my want list, you can't make up a long distance train without one even if its only a four coach train working on the Irish trains are short theory,  defiantly not 16 or more coaches we get on long distance trains.

A brake end coach may be rare but I would think most model rail trains would be to short to justify two generator coaches of whatever description but I believe Ireland like other places in the world is supposed to have a proper guards compartment each end of a passenger train.

So I bow to those with superior knowledge on that one.

I just have the point of view that if the locomotives are made RTR then at least a small well chosen core of RTR rolling stock in appropriate liveries should be made to go with them.

Two train loads one goods the other passenger which should be able to be done with a very small selection of stock all I care about is finishing the trains I have or rather don't have so the locomotives where not a wasted purchase

Hmm I think my frustrations are really showing

regards John

 

Very good points made, John.

In terms of Ireland, and especially when 121s were grey, and all but two of the forthcoming "A" class liveries were in vogue, you'd be safe without a catering car - and if you DID have one, the Silverfox one is really the only show in town right now, the 24XX series ones, which were almost the only type in use before 1972. So if a catering car is on your list, that's your answer.

The reason so many trains had a genny van AND a luggage van was to have one carrying mailbags, parcels and the like. However, many trains just had the one, so one would certainly do for a shorter train. VERY long trains may have had an extra one for more handbrake power - though that is a guess, I don't know for certain.

There were no Craven brake coaches, no Park Royal ones (until later days, and externally much the same), very very few Bredin types, and equally very very few Laminate types until the 1970s. The generator vans were the de facto "normal" at the end of almost every single passenger train: thus - a range of the three main types of "tin vans" is an absolute essential for IRMM at some stage!

You are absolutely right in saying that "if the locomotives are made RTR then at least a small well chosen core of RTR rolling stock in appropriate liveries should be made to go with them". I couldn't agree more!

And THAT would mean (a) laminate, (b) Park Royal, (c) tin vans. In all reality, any sort of rake of any carriages without those, which is behind a green or silver diesel of ANY sort, a grey 121 or an all-black A or C, simply isn't historically realistic, especially if they are all the same, don't have an appropriate van, and are all black'n'tan.

I'll simply finish by saying that many aren't THAT concerned about absolute accuracy - fair enough - each to their own - it's each of our own railway, after all!

[Buz]

Hi jhb171achill

I am in the I will mix camp when it comes to coaches , I want this make up for a train I am not bothered about style (builder) of coach

I look at the coach type  first, std/3rd catering brakes hopefully matching livery

If not it becomes which liveries ran together as liveries changed so if green ran with orange and black single stripe then that can be done to get a train.

As long as the whole dogs breakfast looks a believable possibility I am happy.

Thanks for confirming a steam generator car is an absolute must I have that at least in motion.

Which means the core for RTR coaches could come down to literally two a composite and steam generator,  one branch line complete train OK its a train set train. But I have seen pictures of a real similar sized trains, and if it can be done cost effectively even better.

regards John