Hattons "Genesis" Generic Six Wheelers

[jhb171achill]

A few of us have seen this project with great interest. I contacted them to enquire about a run of CIE-liveried ones and got a very positive reply.

These things are being produced in a number of British liveries, but while BCDR, DSER, CBSCR, MGWR and GNR six-wheelers had nothing remotely similar running in Britain which could be repainted, the GSWR - conveniently our largest company - DID have a couple of designs which bore a reasonable ("2-ft rule") resemblance to these Hattons things. Thus, a CIE-liveried one, along with the SSM and Worsley kits, would fill a VERY large hole in Irish railway modelling - the bog-standard six-wheeler, to be seen EVERYWHERE into the early 1960s.

If anyone else is interested in expressing support for any sort of Irish run of them, this is the man to contact:

Dave Mylett

Exclusive Commissions Manager

 

Hattons Model Railways Ltd

17 Montague Road

Widnes
Cheshire

WA8 8FZ

0151 733 3655

www.hattons.co.uk

Edited October 9, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Ironroad]

Just to advise that I also contacted them recently with the same question and while a got a very polite response you seem to have managed to get a bit further than I did. I will certainly follow up with Mr. Mylett and as you suggest would encourage anyone else that is interested to do likewise. If you don't ask !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Noel]

They would look well behind OO works J15. Don't know if the coaches below were MGWR or GSWR, but in the movie they were running on MGWR rails

 

[Niles]

19 minutes ago, Noel said:

They would look well behind OO works J15. Don't know if the coaches below were MGWR or GSWR, but in the movie they were running on MGWR rails

 

The brake coach is of GSWR origin, quite possibly 69 herself which is undergoing restoration at Downpatrick: https://www.downrail.co.uk/rolling-stock/gswr-69/

I think the others are GSWR as well; at least they don't have that distinctive MGWR Attock window shape with curved edges at the top.

While the Hattons ones don't really have the 'look' of MGWR coaches, for GSWR types they can't be any less accurate than the Bachmann/MM LMS vehicles masquerading as GSWR and GSR built stock (which looked fantastic all the same).

Edited October 10, 2020 by Niles

[Galteemore]

Or any less accurate than a track gauge that’s over a scale foot out !Modelling is all about the degree of compromise you can live with. I suspect that a beautifully finished 6w coach in CIE green would satisfy most of us even if windows aren’t quite right. Read what the 0 gauge kit manufacturer Jim McGeown says about his ‘generic’ 6 wheelers.....interesting perspective....I have cited it in full as he makes a few points along the way....I painted mine 30s SR green btw...seen here before I glazed it and sold it on to fund my Irish project ! 

  Although based on prototypes the concept of these coach kits is that they are very generic and represent typical coaches that were built by all the railway companies. 

  These kits have been designed to provide the modeller with an economical coach that can be built in a reasonable weekend modeling session to a level of detail suitable for running on a layout. The modeller can then paint the coach in their chosen railways livery.

  By painting and lettering in say LNER brown livery a set of these coaches will capture the look and feel of a typical LNER rural branch line train made up of inherited pre grouping coaches.

  Your friends will probably make comments like "I see that you have modeled the coaches used on the Campbellwick Green branch in October 1936". You can then nod sagely and secretly smile to yourself knowing that the most distinguishing thing about coaches is their colour and lettering.

  Painted chocolate and cream they have the look of some of the South Wales railway companies coaches that were absorbed by the Great western and painted LMS maroon a Midland appearance and so on. The possibilities for these coaches is only limited by your imagination.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

Interesting detail visible at 1:45 in the video. A "smoking" sign on the coach window advertising Wills Gold Flake. How times have changed.

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Ironroad said:

Interesting detail visible at 1:45 in the video. A "smoking" sign on the coach window advertising Wills Gold Flake. How times have changed.

 

CIE public timetable booklets of the time were full of ads for Afton cigarettes.

Edited October 11, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Galteemore]

Smoking wasn’t merely accepted or tolerated then: hard as it is to believe, it was seen as a healthy additive to one’s existence.  1930s and 40s  newspaper ads trumpeted the health benefits of smoking and brands vied to be ‘the doctors’ choice’. ....

Edited October 11, 2020 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

All true but I was wryly thinking that ideally a model of these six wheelers should have this sign on a window or two, the incongruity being that we have models with no smoking signs on the windows.

[jhb171achill]

Hard to believe now, but those of us “of an age” will well remember being kippered with cigarette smoke after even a quite short journey on ANY train or bus!

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Hard to believe now, but those of us “of an age” will well remember being kippered with cigarette smoke after even a quite short journey on ANY train or bus!

When I take over, all smoking restrictions will be suspended on every February 29th, just to remind people every four years of just what it was like.

I was probably smoking the equivalent of about five or six a day, but at least I didn't have to actually pay for them.

[Buz]

Hi all

Just remember that non smoking coaches where also available back in the day as well and also some dubious 1/2 and 1/2 coaches.

I think back in the day some of us got that Kippered on trains that we where lucky not to get served up for breakfast.

I can remember smoking at the back of the bus not sure it was healthy for others but you where once allowed to smoke at the back of the bus I can also remember prospector rail cars being 1/2 smoking and 1/2 non smoking without the benefit of a dividing door or separate air conditioning systems.

How things have changed.

I also asked Hattons about Irish four and six wheel coaches and received a positive response so here is hoping

regards John

[jhb171achill]

I suggested two variants - lined dark CIE green plus the lighter 1955-63 version, on the four six-wheelers. Obviously, the four wheelers wouldn’t count for Ireland.

Since these things resemble some GSWR designs, but aren’t remotely like NCC, BCDR, GNR, DSER, MGWR or West Cork designs, I didn’t go into those variants - although they ARE generic. So I suggested that if economics required something more, just GSR maroon.

[Ironroad]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I suggested two variants - lined dark CIE green plus the lighter 1955-63 version, on the four six-wheelers. Obviously, the four wheelers wouldn’t count for Ireland.

Since these things resemble some GSWR designs, but aren’t remotely like NCC, BCDR, GNR, DSER, MGWR or West Cork designs, I didn’t go into those variants - although they ARE generic. So I suggested that if economics required something more, just GSR maroon.

Hi JHB, I have yet to follow up with Hatton's on my original communication with them and before doing so I have a few questions you may have the answers to.

Given they they are offering quite a few options in these models and the fact they may view what we are asking for as very niche and impractical it seems to me that our best chance is to narrow down the options we would like to see on Irish liveried versions.

Firstly do we need to see Irish livery on all four of the six wheelers. I note that one of these is a full brake and another is a brake 3rd. So the question is would one brake type  suffice and if so which one? That would reduce the number of coaches in Irish livery to three and means that anyone making up a rake of at four would purchase a multiple  of at least one of the composite coaches (which may make this more attractive to Hatton's).   

After that, the options offered are;

Wheel type' Mansell or three hole.

Roof furniture; Oil Gas or Electric

Lower Footboards; Optional.

So assuming we are considering CIE dark Green late '40s to '55 which of these options are appropriate?

Would this be different for the light green livery?

And for those interested in GSR Maroon what would be appropriate? 

And my final question, what running numbers would be appropriate?

I bow to your superior knowledge in these matters, Thank you

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Hi JHB, I have yet to follow up with Hatton's on my original communication with them and before doing so I have a few questions you may have the answers to.

Given they they are offering quite a few options in these models and the fact they may view what we are asking for as very niche and impractical it seems to me that our best chance is to narrow down the options we would like to see on Irish liveried versions.

Firstly do we need to see Irish livery on all four of the six wheelers. I note that one of these is a full brake and another is a brake 3rd. So the question is would one brake type  suffice and if so which one? That would reduce the number of coaches in Irish livery to three and means that anyone making up a rake of at four would purchase a multiple  of at least one of the composite coaches (which may make this more attractive to Hatton's).   

After that, the options offered are;

Wheel type' Mansell or three hole.

Roof furniture; Oil Gas or Electric

Lower Footboards; Optional.

So assuming we are considering CIE dark Green late '40s to '55 which of these options are appropriate?

Would this be different for the light green livery?

And for those interested in GSR Maroon what would be appropriate? 

And my final question, what running numbers would be 

Very good points, Ironroad. If we go back to GSR times, more gas lighting - though not all. Having said that, I think you’re spot on regarding the viability of a whole lot of variants.

1.  Both brake thirds and full brakes were in fact equally common. If he did the FULL brake, he could include black’n’tan, as four of these were still kicking about in the 60s - as far as I can ascertain, two of them were in use  until 1968, thus for a very short time could be seen in the Galway mail train with a train which included Cravens! Thus, if there was an advantage of some of the batch being like this, we’ll and good.

2. Lower footboard - yes, on almost all varieties, in all circumstances.

3. Mansell wheels would be best, indeed. A few old relics in West Cork had SPOKED wheels, but not of this design! Three-hole otherwise.

4. Roof furniture - mostly electric in CIE times. I can’t be certain, but done acetylene; I had a list somewhere at one stage but I’m not sure if I still have it.

5. In CIE dark green or light green, roof details, foot boards and the like much the same. There were few if any alterations done to these carriages in their last years, bar the substitution of aluminium sheet for some rotten panels, sometimes simplifying beading  and panelling as a result. However this latter applied almost totally to ex-MGWR stock, so it’s irrelevant to these ones as they were a completely different design.

6.  Running numbers - I have lusts which can give them chapter & verse on this, but numbers were all over the place. You could get a single type of vehicle which had numbers like 6, 23, 56-78, 119, 214-7, and 1009-1021!

I think your point about brake 3rd -v- full brake is worth passing on in case it makes the idea more viable, though obviously for all of us, the more variants the better!

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

i emailed them too! over potential CIE variant of the genesis coach. 6 wheeler's  to my knowledge were plentiful in west cork being used to the very end even in railcar sets! so it would be a good idea especially with hattons great record when it comes to models

 

 

[Ironroad]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:57 PM, jhb171achill said:

Very good points, Ironroad. If we go back to GSR times, more gas lighting - though not all. Having said that, I think you’re spot on regarding the viability of a whole lot of variants.

1.  Both brake thirds and full brakes were in fact equally common. If he did the FULL brake, he could include black’n’tan, as four of these were still kicking about in the 60s - as far as I can ascertain, two of them were in use  until 1968, thus for a very short time could be seen in the Galway mail train with a train which included Cravens! Thus, if there was an advantage of some of the batch being like this, we’ll and good.

2. Lower footboard - yes, on almost all varieties, in all circumstances.

3. Mansell wheels would be best, indeed. A few old relics in West Cork had SPOKED wheels, but not of this design! Three-hole otherwise.

4. Roof furniture - mostly electric in CIE times. I can’t be certain, but done acetylene; I had a list somewhere at one stage but I’m not sure if I still have it.

5. In CIE dark green or light green, roof details, foot boards and the like much the same. There were few if any alterations done to these carriages in their last years, bar the substitution of aluminium sheet for some rotten panels, sometimes simplifying beading  and panelling as a result. However this latter applied almost totally to ex-MGWR stock, so it’s irrelevant to these ones as they were a completely different design.

6.  Running numbers - I have lusts which can give them chapter & verse on this, but numbers were all over the place. You could get a single type of vehicle which had numbers like 6, 23, 56-78, 119, 214-7, and 1009-1021!

I think your point about brake 3rd -v- full brake is worth passing on in case it makes the idea more viable, though obviously for all of us, the more variants the better!

 

 

Thank you for all of that. Seems liker there is a good case for a full brake in Black n' Tan, and I'll certainly point that out. As a matter of curiosity if these ran with Cravens albeit for a short time what else did those Galway trains consist of? 

On 12/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

i emailed them too! over potential CIE variant of the genesis coach. 6 wheeler's  to my knowledge were plentiful in west cork being used to the very end even in railcar sets! so it would be a good idea especially with hattons great record when it comes to models

 

 

What a great picture,   it expands the case.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Ironroad

[Galteemore]

Those aren’t 6w coaches, lads. They are Courtmacsherry bogies - very short bogie coaches used on the T and C. There are tons of other pics to support the case though !

[K801]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:14 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

i emailed them too! over potential CIE variant of the genesis coach. 6 wheeler's  to my knowledge were plentiful in west cork being used to the very end even in railcar sets! so it would be a good idea especially with hattons great record when it comes to models

what's Dave Mylett email address?

[jhb171achill]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 7:14 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

i emailed them too! over potential CIE variant of the genesis coach. 6 wheeler's  to my knowledge were plentiful in west cork being used to the very end even in railcar sets! so it would be a good idea especially with hattons great record when it comes to models

 

 

Yes, there were many in West Cork towards the end (and indeed, ALWAYS!).

However:

1. From the 1950s onwards, for the record most were Midland Great Western in origin - totally different design to Hatton's ones. Should such a thing ever become financially viable, perhaps with very much lower production runs possible with future new technology, they are a very obvious gap in Irish models.

2. There probably WERE a few GSWR from time to time too, thus Hatton's yokes would be suitable.

3. The pic above is of a set of GSWR short-length bogies which were drafted into the West Cork system in the late 50s to replace earlier CBSCR ones which were totally knackered by then. These GSWR ones - you can see - bear a clear resemblance to the Hattons bodysides - HOWEVER, the ones in the pic are all bogie vehicles! The reason they had to have 48ft bogie coaches on the system (and I think, latterly, there were six), was the sharp curves on the Courtmac branch, for the summer excursions. They didn't turn a wheel otherwise by the time this picture was taken.

4. In AEC railcar sets - six-wheelers very occasionally ran singly, tagged onto the end, but not IN the set, as they were non-corridor. The Harcourt St. line saw this practice too, and even on the last day on that line, a MGWR 6-wheeler is seen tagged onto the back of an AEC set leaving H. St.; it is a MGWR one.

I was speaking with one of our highly-respected model manufacturers this evening and he offered some advice, along the lines that even if Hattons did a single vehicle in a CIE livery, a string of them would work with a "tin van" at the end. This is very true, and adds to the comments made before about whether a full brake or brake third would be a good idea.

Of course, a suitable old wooden non-corridor BOGIE brake third would be another suitable option. Hard for our young'uns to take in, I know, but there was no such thing as a train of an identical type of coach, be they bogie OR six-wheeled; a mixture would be far more realistic. I have one of those old Triang GWR clerestorey-roofed brake thirds for such a purpose. Clerestorey whipped off and replaced with a flatter roof, and you've got one of a pair of WLWR Brake 3rds which were scrapped in 1955. Can't remember numbers - I'm in the middle of a house move and all me stuff is packed up - but it's an OK approximation under the "2-ft rule terms and conditions" (1 compartment too many!). That would do behind six wheelers.

If anyone wants to model earlier CIE days, no tin vans obviously, but from my observations, there would appear to more interest among CIE modellers in the late 50s than early 50s; this allows A, C, G601, E401 and B101 class diesels as well a steam. It also allows the two green liveries plus the "silver", whereas if one was fixated in 1953, for example, it's (a) all steam, and (b) only one carriage livery.

However, when I entered into correspondence with Hattons, I was told that they've already had "a lot of interest" from Ireland - so some of us have seen the potential straight away....

Their design team, as I understand, is currently considering what liveries beyond what they've already offered might be viable for them too. For the British enthusiasts, they've already dreamed up an eye-watering amount of possibilities. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, K801 said:

what's Dave Mylett email address?

Where I got him was: <dave@hattons.co.uk>

 

3 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Seems like there is a good case for a full brake in Black n' Tan, and I'll certainly point that out. As a matter of curiosity if these ran with Cravens albeit for a short time what else did those Galway trains consist of? 

The first Cravens came out in 1963, but they were not to be seen on secondary services for a decade after that at least. There were several old GSWR six-wheeled full brakes, plus quite a few old wooden bogies which made it into the black'n'tan livery. Not a single PASSENGER-carrying six-wheeler was ever painted anything beyond green.

The last two six-wheelers withdrawn from traffic were 69 and another one, whose number escapes me. No. 69 ended up with a gangway connection - an exceptionally rare thing for ANY six-wheeler back in the day, though the GSWR had a VERY small number. This was apparently 1968 when they were last used, but one might have been still technically on the books a bit later - I'd have to check. Some of the wooden bogies though, lasted on Dublin & Cork peak-hour services until 1974, including some non-corridor ones. Six-wheel no. 69 is now at Downpatrick, part-restored.

So, what did these last six-wheelers DO? It seems that one was a regular on the Galway Mail. This would have seen it rubbing shoulders with bogie mail vans, "tin vans" (of course) and the various types of laminate coaches MOSTLY - an odd Craven, Bredin, corridor wooden bogie or Park Royal.

It is likely that the last few might also have rubbed shoulders with a new Craven on the Sligo or Cork lines. That said, I don't personally recall too many Cravens on the Sligo line back then - but it could not, of course, be ruled out.

They would not however be seen with a whole long sleek SET of Cravens. The Cravens were mixed up within the hotch-potch family of all the other types of coaches.

 

[Galteemore]

Yes, ironically the Courtmacsherry set above is one of the most uniform trains to be seen on 50s CIE!

Edited October 13, 2020 by Galteemore

[DiveController]

I just arrived in from a long day at work and priorities being what they are I decided to forego non-essential items like food and in preference constructed an email to Dave Mylett on behalf of the modelers on this side of the pond principally in the Chicago and Dallas metro areas plus myself.

THEN I returned to see if there had been any discussion on this subject at all and was pleased to see that several members had actually taken the time to put pen to paper to Hattons. Thank you all. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

[jhb171achill]

This is a typical type of branch or local train, and while I believe this pic dates from 1937, it would be same on some lines  and even with a “C” class up front, until as late as 1963. (Once a diesel appeared, of course, a “tin van” HAD to be added for heat).

All three vehicles here are ex-GSWR. The first is an open 3rd or possibly composite of 1900-1905 vintage, very much from the family of 836 at Downpatrick.

Significantly, the two six-wheelers are VERY much like the GSWR style of the Hattons ones. One is an all-third, the other a full brake.

 

(Photo: copyright P Dillon Collection).

Edited October 14, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Richard EH]

Afternoon all!

Had picked this up via the earlier thread on this, below. I think that one of the GNR six wheelers does suit a GNRi Q3 as well as a few others as listed. It's great that Hattons are mulling things over for the irish market - I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do with these models!

 

Cheers for now!

 

Richard

 

[jhb171achill]

The GNR ones had quite different panelling styles - I often thought, though, that a number of GNR (England) coaches could either be "kitbashed" into GNR(I) "2ft-rule" types, or as bogies.

If Hattons also decide to release the chassis of these things as a separate item, scratchbuilding of other Irish types would be made a great deal easier. The NCC, MGWR, BCDR, GNR, GSWR, WLWR and DSER all had their own very distinctive styles. And then you get to West Cork....the Hattons "genesis" isn't hugely unlike one or two of theirs.

There's a Roxey 48ft third that is half-ways close to one MGWR bogie - might get one some day! But that's a different issue. For the "genesis" thing, it resembles GSWR types best. Naturally, SSM kits provide ACTUAL GSWR types.

[Richard EH]

For sure, it's a trade off between a well applied livery and an exact match on length, width and pannelling style.

I may have a chassis or two spare if the bodies re bodged into a bogie coach... I'm sure there'll be folk doing similar - if the 6w chassis runs well.....

Richard.