Regauging the ballasts etc.

[murphaph]

Perhaps there's a thread already and I missed it. If so my apologies. I'm just wondering has anyone regauged the Ballasts, bubbles and plough to 21mm yet and if so can you report on your experiences or give any idea of how much effort we are talking to regauge several rakes of each.

Cheers, 

Phil

[Galteemore]

There’s an article in the latest ‘New Irish Lines’ I think 

[DiveController]

There were some photos on one of the threads but I don't recall where?

Regardless of how compatibility with 21mm reguaging was worded, some modelers seem to have experienced some issues with the chassis on the bubbles (and ballasts) not being wide enough to accommodate that without filing down the plastic on the inside to accommodate the wheels at at the correct back to back setting.

The ploughs of course were not retooled, nor the gypsums I imagine. Since these were designed to be sold in rakes, there will be some work involved depending on how many you need to do.

I'll post the reference of I find it

Edited January 7, 2021 by DiveController

[murphaph]

Thanks for the tips so far guys. The NIL article suggests doing what I suspected might be required for the Ballasts: disassemble to kit of parts and insert plasticard shims into chassis.

The bubbles look trickier and the plough vans the trickiest (though for me lowest priority).

Any further insights are most welcome. I haven't finally committed to going down the 21mm path as I have a fair few of these wagons (2 gypsum rakes, one rake each of the original ballasts as well as the new IE and IR ones and iirc 27 bubbles.)

Learning to make track by hand doesn't scare me as much as regauging tbh.

[Mayner]

There was a thread on this forum on converting IRM wagons to 21mm gauge during 2018 including the ballast wagons.

The modifications in the new Irish Lines article appear to be similar to those in the IRM thread.

The Bubble Cement may be a more straight forward conversion as there is sufficient width between the axleguards to fit 21mm gauge EM or S4 profile wheelsets but not the wider NMRA110 profile wheelsets used in the majority of rtr rolling stock.

 

 

[murphaph]

Thanks very much folks. I am still minded to "make it work" as the 5'3" effect is just so cool. I think If I'm understanding things properly it looks like the ballasts need disassembling and shimming and then a bit of painting and weathering to cover the shims. I think I can do that. The bubbles seem to be able to take P4 wheelsets but would not be wide enough between the axle boxes to take "EM" wheelsets. Is that correct? If I use P4 wheelsets I assume I must be more accurate in my track building endeavours or is that a misapprehension?

The ploughs seem to be the trickiest of all but also the least numerous (I only have the IR and IE sets).

[Galteemore]

My understanding (based on 7mm) is that ultra scale stuff like P4 and S7 has much less tolerance in stuff like flanges. They are so fine that there is not much scope for error (and also why so much effort goes into compensation systems to keep stuff on the track). One of many reasons I went for 5’3” in fine scale and not ScaleSeven!

[Si2020]

44 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thanks very much folks. I am still minded to "make it work" as the 5'3" effect is just so cool. I think If I'm understanding things properly it looks like the ballasts need disassembling and shimming and then a bit of painting and weathering to cover the shims. I think I can do that. The bubbles seem to be able to take P4 wheelsets but would not be wide enough between the axle boxes to take "EM" wheelsets. Is that correct? If I use P4 wheelsets I assume I must be more accurate in my track building endeavours or is that a misapprehension?

The ploughs seem to be the trickiest of all but also the least numerous (I only have the IR and IE sets).

I think you may have got the EM and P4 the wrong way round as the P4 wheels are wider apart than EM and may require you to remove some plastic from the back of the axleboxes to get the P4 wheels in (asuming you are using P4 wheels gauged out to 21mm.

Since I've been brain washed by those suppliers of green boxes (I'm blaming them for this next bit ), Hope fully in the new year I will be making a start on building and layout to 21mm as I already do 2mmFS, EM, P4 and scale & so doing Irish railways to 21mm is the right thing for me to do.

Yes you will need to make sure your track work is built to a fine tolernace but you can always do what quite a few P4 exhibtion layouts do and use EM wheels to give a deeper flange to help with the track holding aspect.  Yes that does happen and a lot more than people know

 

[murphaph]

Ah ok. I thought the tyre width of the P4 wheels was narrower than EM, therefore requiring less overall width, even though the back to back may be wider. I'm a bit confused lol.

[Si2020]

2 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Ah ok. I thought the tyre width of the P4 wheels was narrower than EM, therefore requiring less overall width, even though the back to back may be wider. I'm a bit confused lol.

HI,

I think I've got a bit of crossed wires. Re-reading you post, you are going to use P4 wheels for the narrowness of them to hopefully give more room on the wheel face/wheel boss to fit inbetween the axles boxes??

This may be ok but I would still expect you to have to remove some of the back of the axles boxes on some models to enable the wheels to be abe to be set at 21mm, bearing in mind that the 21mm masurment is rail top to rail top so doesn't include the rim width size which will add extra width needed

[murphaph]

I haven't committed to anything yet to be honest. I am a bit concerned about the "P4" (21mm) route as I don't fancy all the extra work that seems to be required to avoid derailments. I had originally only considered EM (21mm) because of the looser tolerances and the fact I am not bothered by deeper flanges etc. What I dislike about 00 is simply the space between the rails. It just looks off to me and I will be viewing my layout primarily from above so can't hide it. 

I think I will still go the EM (21mm) Can we call this TOM?? and just put in the extra effort on the conversions for an easier life later on. 

[David Holman]

I think the issue between P4 and EM wheels is that P4, being 18.83 (for the standard gauge) has thinner, pretty much scale, wheels, but these are nearly a millimetre wider, because EM is 18.2mm.

When doing 5'3, 21mm track the choices seem as follows:

• Use P4 standards, which require very fine, accurate track building and some form of springing and/or compensation in ALL stock because flanges are very small
• Use 21mm gauge track with 4mm finescale standards. In other words flangeways through point crossings/ frogs of 1mm, the same as 00 finescale. Works perfectly well without going to sprung or compensated chassis, BUT the slightly thicker wheels will mean some fettling may be required in chassis designed for the narrower gauge. This might just mean thinning W irons, but could mean a new chassis. The latter not as dramatic as you'd think, especially for a 4 wheel wagon. Diesel locos should be OK, but steam outline locos could be an issue, especially ready to run ones if they have splashers which could be too narrow and therefore need a substantial rebuild.
• Use 'Irish EM ', yes, it does exist, a track gauge of 20.2mm. Templot has drawings for points and crossings. Some of the issues above may still apply, but the 0.8mm narrower gauge will still look way better than 16.5 but give that little bit extra space for existing wheels.

Hope this helps!

[murphaph]

Which wheels would be suitable for Irish EM?

I'm not a purist so the missing 0.8 mm is not a problem. 

[Mayner]

OO finescale/EM & S4 profile wheels are manufactured by Alan Gibson WorkShops (AGW) http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/ and Ultrascale Products https://www.ultrascale.uk/. 

Ultrascale is basically a bespoke manufacturer and will supply 21mm gauge wheels to order difficult to predict lead time in the current circumstances.

My preference is for Ultrascale wheels as they are to a higher spec. but also use AGW wheels particularly for steam loco driving wheels a AGW produce a wider range of suitable wheels.

I published a tread on the pros & cons of applying EM/OO fine standards to Irish Broad Gauge in 2018. 

Templot "Irish EM' appears to have been developed by Martin Wynne as EM+2mm  similar to his advocacy of EM-2mm to achieve improved running with current OO gauge rtr rolling stock.

There may be some advantage in using the Templot standard for re-gauging Murphy Models diesels & IRM bogie wagons while retaining the original NMRA110 wheelsets, but rtr coaches and 4 w freight stock would require modifications/replacement of bogies and running gear for a wider gauge.

 

 

 

[David Holman]

For my Fintonagh project, have used  standard wagon and coach wheels, but replaced the steel axles with 2mm brass wire. Easy to put pointed ends on to go in bearing cups, in W irons. Though 7mm scale, the layout is 21mm gauge using finescale 4mm clearances.

[murphaph]

Thanks again guys. The IRM wheelsets on the "early" stuff cannot be used as one wheel is cast with the axle or at least doesn't allow itself to be removed from the axle, is that right? I think I will first try to make my own axles using 2mm steel and filing to a point in a Dremel and re-use wheels wherever possible as the fineness of the wheels is really unimportant to me.

Can I at least pull the insulated wheels off the axle and make up a wheelset from a pair of IRM wheelsets?

[Garfield]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Thanks again guys. The IRM wheelsets on the "early" stuff cannot be used as one wheel is cast with the axle or at least doesn't allow itself to be removed from the axle, is that right?

Not sure where that rumour originated from, but it's false. 

Wheel sets are made from turned metal, not casting, and the wheels, axle, and insulators are all separate components. The wheels can be moved outwards by using a wheel pullers such as this one: https://www.fohrmann.com/en/model-railway-wheel-puller-h0.html

[murphaph]

Oh well that's even better. I am sure I read (perhaps in the NIL article even) that the "fixed" wheel couldn't be moved.

Can I simply pull both wheels off the axle of an IRM Ballast wagon and push them on to 2mm home made axles?

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by murphaph

[Garfield]

28 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Oh well that's even better. I am sure I read (perhaps in the NIL article even) that the "fixed" wheel couldn't be moved.

Can I simply pull both wheels off the axle of an IRM Ballast wagon and push them on to 2mm home made axles?

 

Yes, shouldn't be an issue!

[murphaph]

Does anyone know if I were to re-use the IRM wheels and use "Irish EM" what would the back to back measurement need to be on the remanufactured wheelsets?

[Robert Shrives]

• Mayer  had said back in  per a snip from link above 

Posted September 25, 2018 (edited)

I thought it would be useful to apply the EMGS standard to Irish 5'3" gauge to help people weight up the pros and cons of modelling in 21mm gauge and to make an objective comparison between working to P4 or to EM/OO fine wheel and treads ....  

Interestingly I had no problems running locos and stock with EM/OO finescale wheels set at 19.5mm back to back through the pointwork on the Loughrea layout, though it was necessary to reduce the back to backs on wagons fitted with older wheels with a coarser profile to 19.3mm which correlates with the EM standard.  

 

hope that helps

Robert 

[David Holman]

On Fintonagh the back to back is set at 19mm. Am guessing much will depend on the wheels in use, so it could need to vary according to type. A gauge is easy enough to make from thick brass or aluminium, alternatively use a vernier gauge.

 Didn't say earlier, but think it is great you are going for 21mm ish, because it will make all the difference visually, but likewise applaud your desire to extend modelling skills. Nothing wrong with 'out of the box', but there is much satisfaction to be had for taking things to a different level. Enjoy!

[Brendan8056]

Robert, I am the author of the New Irish Lines article and also the re-gauging IRM wagons pics on this site.

Do not confuse yourself about P4/EM/20.8mm, go for the easy option, the so called finescale 21mm gauge. All current RTR diesels can be re-gauged using their existing wheels, though needing new axles. I have just done a Murphy's 121, and an article will appear in New Irish Lines about that as well.

I use templot for point plans and use track gauges for 21mm gauge, no problems. 

 Make up a bit of plain track, re-gauge a diesel and some wagons, run them up and down, and you will never look back on the "narrow gauge". If you really do not like it after that you can just push the wheels back to 16.5mm gauge.

Apologies, It is not Robert but Murphaph I should have replied too!

2 minutes ago, Brendan8056 said:

Murphaph

 

4 minutes ago, Brendan8056 said:

 

 

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

No harm  and thanks for time to reply with standards - it is a similar exercising of minds in the 3mm Society  a  broad church with 12 - 14.2 and a little 15mm for Irish prototypes , with 12mm have three standards active...  I think it is good to see folk discussing and moving toward 21 as it reflects the upping of the rolling stock available.   I think I might struggle rewheeling a lima bogie  from "narrow"  with a good number of MK2bs repainted a bridge too far for me. 

cheers

Robert. 

[murphaph]

Hi Brendan. Where can I source such a track gauge? I want to build a bit of straight track as you suggest and then regauge a loco and some wagons. 

Do you have the full 21mm between the rails, not the 20.2mm?

There are almost too many variants for an amateur like me here!

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

Just dug out my efforts on a trial bit of 21mm  At a Derby Roundhouse show a few years back I was able to chat with the boss of C&L  who noted no point in 21mm gauges as market far to small but why not get p4 gauges and use washers - so that is what I did, along with rails ,sleepers chairs  I have built a 60 foot panel.

So I bought:

added washers

 or

added

rail chairs and ended up with 

Make a good PW inspector shut the job I am sure but with out making a track jig it proved very easy to get this far - ok points and that sort of thing a step up.   But I was imagineeering a diorama with 21 mm track in foreground and perhaps a bufferstop and then 16.5 behind at a lower level - so the eye reads wide track and carries over to the rear stock being photoed . 

Hope this encourages.  

 

[Robert Shrives]

2 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

 

two more pics , chairs were 4CH101A coded - 3 bolt chairs and I got a pack of 250.  I would have thought a point kit 

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/4PK-POINT-KITS-ALL-SIZES-4-MM-SELECT-FROM-OO-EM-P4-p128200474, would be suitable for adaption but certainly worth correspondence  with C&L  - I think a lot of folk buy a kit to try and then just the crossing nose as a made up section and do all the rest themselves.

  and the tiddly small chairs and a couple of ply sleepers in close up

  

[Galteemore]

Looks brilliant Robert! 

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Thanks , I think making a half track gauge is important to get spacing right as it is the glue- mekpak has helped weld "key" into rail web so it is quite strong as is with only a few loose sleepers.  Given EM soc funded some track development for their members I wonder if IRM had the time- and money of course to get peco excited in the future for a 21mm bullhead range or perhaps a flat bottom  light weight range.  I guess a lottery win would help at this time!    

[Si2020]

1 hour ago, Robert Shrives said:

Hi Thanks , I think making a half track gauge is important to get spacing right as it is the glue- mekpak has helped weld "key" into rail web so it is quite strong as is with only a few loose sleepers.  Given EM soc funded some track development for their members I wonder if IRM had the time- and money of course to get peco excited in the future for a 21mm bullhead range or perhaps a flat bottom  light weight range.  I guess a lottery win would help at this time!    

Having been part of the EM team that worked on the track project I can give you a slight in sight in to the cost.......

Without giving exact figures (as im sure the EMGS or Peco wouldn't want me to give them out)but to give an idea if you have enough cash to buy a high end large family car then you may have enough to get plain track base and a left and right hand point done.

A lottery win would help if you wanted to expand the range quckly.

 

[Robert Shrives]

Si 2020, 

Yes aware of cost levels from another avenue for tooling works involved in other projects in model railway land.  Hence why a lottery win essential .  How to make a fortune in football - start off with a big fortune ! 

Robert      

[NIR]

2 hours ago, Si2020 said:

if you have enough cash to buy a high end large family car then you may have enough to get plain track base and a left and right hand point done

Then again that would be creating its own market for the next 50 years with a decent sized barrier to entry surrounding it. I guess the big unknown is 3D printing and the like.

Edited December 29, 2020 by NIR

[Robert Shrives]

Not too offtopic is to look at what Wayne at Finescale N has done with milled plastic bases https://www.britishfinescale.com/.  They are not quite shake the box as a bit of filing and soldering required. "blowing up "to a 21 mm base  and using C&L glueable chairs, rail and crossing components would offer a road forward.  But still not an answer to those diffident with traditional skills of soldering and filing. 

Robert  

[Georgeconna]

It would certainly be nice on a Small Layout but the time element of building multiple points etc would kill me.

I used to wonder in my youth when fellas at the RC club would head home on a perfect day for family'sy duties, Now I know!  For me it is just not Possible given time constraints.

[Brendan8056]

I have a variety of track gauges, including some of the washer type, some comercial ones, usually a single run of production only, and a friend with a lathe made me some brass roller gauges. The track gauge is 21mm, nothing more, nothing less. 

Build the stock to run on the track, not the track adapted to the stock. My wheel back to backs are not always spot on, as long as it runs I do not worry about a bit of variation. (P4 modellers look away at this point!). 

I am sure I read somewhere that  britishfinescale was branching out  to 4mm scale?