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1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Am sure there were industrials like this around Ireland.

Yes, though very few. Allman’s in Bandon and Courtaulds in Carrickfergus, plus Derry Docks and Guinness, are about the only ones I can think of offhand.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Galteemore said:

That’s great work. More info on the diorama/layout please? 

It's a BR Green diesel era layout owned by my local model railway club. I believe it may be going to Tinkers or Bluebell in the coming months. I thought it worked very well for a late industrial steam setting. 

IMG-20220530-WA0013.jpg

 

Edited by J-Mo Arts
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  • 3 weeks later...

Picked this up to make into an MGWR loco as shown in the thread on this forum:

IMG_20220616_190203.jpg

Apparently I didn't have enough projects all on the go... 

I found this image:

Class E - 109 FLY - Atock Class E 0-6-0T - built 1891 by Sharp Stewart & Co., Works No.3693 - 1925 to GSR as Class 551 No.554, 1945 to CIE - 1960 withdrawn.

I'll do the loco in this early livery of lined green with lined brown frames. 

The donor loco seems to be between a J10/P class and a J26/E class. As such I don't think it should carry the name of one of either class. If anyone has any thoughts about that or alternative name suggestions I'd be happy to hear them!

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Lovely project - although I think most accounts seem to suggest the green was all enveloping: frames and all ! Not that I have a vested interest or anything, having recently done painted green frames on an MGW model ….

Edited by Galteemore
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5 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Lovely project - although I think most accounts seem to suggest the green was all enveloping: frames and all ! Not that I have a vested interest or anything, having recently done painted green frames on an MGW model ….

I read on a thread today, from @jhb171achillI think

Up to 1903: all locomotives, goods included - a shade of green barely darker than current Isle of Man, or not unlike the LNER in England. Frames brown, lined red, green parts of loco lined in black and white. On tenders, "M  G  \\  W  R"  (\\ denoting the MGWR crest). Lettering shaded gold.

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This may refer to a c1900 state, but E L Ahrons, who saw the locos in the flesh c1890, explicitly says that the frames were green. (Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Nineteenth Century, Vol 6, p.57). The GNRI, prior to 1914, certainly did have a livery scheme with lined green uppers and darker coloured frames - described by Ahrons as ‘claret’ (p.70).

Edited by Galteemore
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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

This may refer to a c1900 state, but E L Ahrons, who saw the locos in the flesh c1890, explicitly says that the frames were green. (Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Nineteenth Century, Vol 6, p.57). The GNRI, prior to 1914, certainly did have a livery scheme with lined green uppers and darker coloured frames - described by Ahrons as ‘claret’ (p.70).

That's very interesting. I don't find green frames sounding as nice as claret ones, but I'll go with what's prototypical. Painting is a fair way off yet, plenty of time to do some digging in case the dark frames could be used 😁

 

Not to imply that your loco is wrong or worse or anything, you've clearly used information from an eye-witness, just my personal preference on liveries! 

Edited by J-Mo Arts
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46 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

This may refer to a c1900 state, but E L Ahrons, who saw the locos in the flesh c1890, explicitly says that the frames were green. (Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Nineteenth Century, Vol 6, p.57). The GNRI, prior to 1914, certainly did have a livery scheme with lined green uppers and darker coloured frames - described by Ahrons as ‘claret’ (p.70).

Yes, it refers to late 1890s to 1915, though with some examples temporarily in the blue livery 1903-5 or 6. Ahrons was lucky to witness matters pre-1890; it was at about this time that frames became brown on most cases. Some goods-only locos were plain black BY about 1915, I have heard from one unconfirmed source.

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3 hours ago, David Holman said:

Sounds like my Wolf Dog needs some attention then...

Not necessarily; could be old livery living on?

Even though the Midland abandoned green entirely about 1915-18, and everything newly painted was lined black after that, Bob Clements noted one 0.6.0 still in green into the early 1930s! It was, in fact, the last MGWR loco to be sheep-dipped grey.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I'm back from a lovely 2-week trip around Ireland, with lots of railway bits crammed in of course. 

I also have picked up a Bachmann N class with a view to make it a CIE mogul as a 'souvenir'. I'm at a loss with which livery to paint it. I really like the one-off black with red lining, but I was thinking of doing plain black for ease. I was also wondering about this photo that I found:

16576273575008048436436831432896.jpg

Apologies for the low-res. I was wondering what the provenance of the lightning bolt on the smokebox is, and whether I could use this on my mogul to hide the BR numberplate that unfortunately is moulded onto the door. 

My second question is whether the colour of the flying snail on the loco and on carriages is the same, as I've got one loco and 4 coaches to do 😅

 

Thanks! 

Edited by J-Mo Arts
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15 minutes ago, J-Mo Arts said:

I'm back from a lovely 2-week trip around Ireland, with lots of railway bits crammed in of course. 

I also have picked up a Bachmann N class with a view to make it a CIE mogul as a 'souvenir'. I'm at a loss with which livery to paint it. I really like the one-off black with red lining, but I was thinking of doing plain black for ease. I was also wondering about this photo that I found:

16576273575008048436436831432896.jpg

Apologies for the low-res. I was wondering what the provenance of the lightning bolt on the smokebox is, and whether I could use this on my mogul to hide the BR numberplate that unfortunately is moulded onto the door. 

My second question is whether the colour of the flying snail on the loco and on carriages is the same, as I've got one loco and 4 coaches to do 😅

 

Thanks! 

The colour of the flying snail is the same on the coaches as it is the tender. 
 

 

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37 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

Aside from the flash, there is also a small headboard fitted I think, which would indicate the loco had been used on the "Radio Train".

I was thinking radio train myself, but didn't know if they had it back in the 'steamy' days

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3 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

I'm back from a lovely 2-week trip around Ireland, with lots of railway bits crammed in of course. 

I also have picked up a Bachmann N class with a view to make it a CIE mogul as a 'souvenir'. I'm at a loss with which livery to paint it. I really like the one-off black with red lining, but I was thinking of doing plain black for ease. I was also wondering about this photo that I found:

16576273575008048436436831432896.jpg

Apologies for the low-res. I was wondering what the provenance of the lightning bolt on the smokebox is, and whether I could use this on my mogul to hide the BR numberplate that unfortunately is moulded onto the door. 

My second question is whether the colour of the flying snail on the loco and on carriages is the same, as I've got one loco and 4 coaches to do 😅

 

Thanks! 

Hi J-Mo

Liveries for those locos were as follows:

Building date (1925) up to 1945: all were plain grey. No snails, obviously, as this was GSR days.

Between 1945 and 1949, most - possibly all - were repainted standard CIE green, lined black and white. It is possible some stayed grey.

1949 - approximately 1955/6 - it seems that at least a few were either repainted plain grey, this time with a "snail", or else just had them added, never having been repainted green at all, though I suspect the former.

Some time in the mid-50s, some were repainted black, I am not sure if any got a green repaint, as any remaining in green livery towards the end of the 50s were so very badloy worn, faded and filthy it was practically imposible to tell how they'd been painted.

The "glossy black" one was a complete one-off - not just for the class, but for the whole of CIE, and for one very specific duty - the Cork-Rosslare Boat Train. However, this was very short-lived, as diesels took over and the loco went back to humdrum duty for a short time before being scrapped.

Livery details:

GREY - GSR:   All over, smokebox, wheels & cab roof included. No markings on tender. Loco number on cast metal plate, with same grey background but numbers picked out in pale yellow usually (a few exceptions).

GREY - CIE:  Same as above, except loco number plates replaced by pale yellow numbers painted on cabside, and pale GREEN (eau-de-nil) "snail" on the tender. The "snails" were transfers, exactly same as my avatar logo here - which is a pic of one, and were thus lined in gold. Painted cabside numerals were not lined.

GREEN - CIE:  Green livery on loco and tender, including wheels. Details as on "Maedb" in Cultra, or any of Drew Donaldson's models - black and white lining. Same pale green "snail" on tender, but cabside numerals also pale green, and lined, if on a green loco.

BLACK - CIE:  Plain black all over, as with the grey livery, no relief at all. Pale yellow painted cabside numbers, pale green snail on SOME tenders; some CIE steam locos that were repainted in the last few years didn't have snails on tenders at all (a la GSR) while some did.

"ROSSLARE" UNIQUE BLACK LIVERY:  All black, single red lining. Pale green snail on tender, but pale green instead of yellow cabside number.

It may be noted that in all circumstances above and elsewhere, yellow "snails" are never correct for loco tenders, white still less so! Always pale green, lined.

I put up a post here ages ago, which I can't find right now, giving details of what 400 class and "Woolwich" locos had grey, green or black in the 1950s. In the case of "Woolwiches", while officially the policy was for these to be green after 1945, photographic evidence indicates a mixture of green, grey or black, so whichever is appropriate will depend on which loco number you're modelling.

Hope that's of assistance!

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12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi J-Mo

Liveries for those locos were as follows:

Building date (1925) up to 1945: all were plain grey. No snails, obviously, as this was GSR days.

Between 1945 and 1949, most - possibly all - were repainted standard CIE green, lined black and white. It is possible some stayed grey.

1949 - approximately 1955/6 - it seems that at least a few were either repainted plain grey, this time with a "snail", or else just had them added, never having been repainted green at all, though I suspect the former.

Some time in the mid-50s, some were repainted black, I am not sure if any got a green repaint, as any remaining in green livery towards the end of the 50s were so very badloy worn, faded and filthy it was practically imposible to tell how they'd been painted.

The "glossy black" one was a complete one-off - not just for the class, but for the whole of CIE, and for one very specific duty - the Cork-Rosslare Boat Train. However, this was very short-lived, as diesels took over and the loco went back to humdrum duty for a short time before being scrapped.

Livery details:

GREY - GSR:   All over, smokebox, wheels & cab roof included. No markings on tender. Loco number on cast metal plate, with same grey background but numbers picked out in pale yellow usually (a few exceptions).

GREY - CIE:  Same as above, except loco number plates replaced by pale yellow numbers painted on cabside, and pale GREEN (eau-de-nil) "snail" on the tender. The "snails" were transfers, exactly same as my avatar logo here - which is a pic of one, and were thus lined in gold. Painted cabside numerals were not lined.

GREEN - CIE:  Green livery on loco and tender, including wheels. Details as on "Maedb" in Cultra, or any of Drew Donaldson's models - black and white lining. Same pale green "snail" on tender, but cabside numerals also pale green, and lined, if on a green loco.

BLACK - CIE:  Plain black all over, as with the grey livery, no relief at all. Pale yellow painted cabside numbers, pale green snail on SOME tenders; some CIE steam locos that were repainted in the last few years didn't have snails on tenders at all (a la GSR) while some did.

"ROSSLARE" UNIQUE BLACK LIVERY:  All black, single red lining. Pale green snail on tender, but pale green instead of yellow cabside number.

It may be noted that in all circumstances above and elsewhere, yellow "snails" are never correct for loco tenders, white still less so! Always pale green, lined.

I put up a post here ages ago, which I can't find right now, giving details of what 400 class and "Woolwich" locos had grey, green or black in the 1950s. In the case of "Woolwiches", while officially the policy was for these to be green after 1945, photographic evidence indicates a mixture of green, grey or black, so whichever is appropriate will depend on which loco number you're modelling.

Hope that's of assistance!

Thanks very much for the livery details! Very useful indeed. I had been looking at that older thread, but the more detailed explanations of liveries are much appreciated. I think I'll paint it black and decide later whether to add the red lining or not. Somewhat annoyingly the eau-de-nil snail transfers I've found have the same colour of numbers, not yellow... 

The old thread:

 

 

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2 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Thanks very much for the livery details! Very useful indeed. I had been looking at that older thread, but the more detailed explanations of liveries are much appreciated. I think I'll paint it black and decide later whether to add the red lining or not. Somewhat annoyingly the eau-de-nil snail transfers I've found have the same colour of numbers, not yellow... 

The old thread:

 

 

I think the red lining will actually be less prototypical (?) the transfers should hopefully be alright to find 

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18 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I think the red lining will actually be less prototypical (?) the transfers should hopefully be alright to find 

Yes, the red lining applied to a single loco, and only for about 18 months and on one route only! If you go for this, or a green livery, then pale green numbers are OK. If you go for ordinary plain black or grey liveries, yellow numbers and light green snails.

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While thinking about this project, I've worked on a different one. All that remains now are couplings, and potentially a handrail on the smokebox, should I ever get round to that. 

IMG_20220714_1558232.jpg

Freelance 00n3 0-8-0T inspired by the Nasmyth Wilson "Aurrera" and in CDR red livery. The weathering was very enjoyable to do.

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2 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Hi all, quick question- were any CIE laminates painted in the dark green without the Eau de Nil stripes above and below the window line? 

No. The lighter green livery appeared about 1956, and the laminates were initially unpainted, though with this becoming a total mess almost instantly in traffic, the earlier ones were repainted in green from about 1957 onwards; the later ones lighter green from the start.

However, ALL of the 1951-3 coaches, often referred to as "laminates" but with solid wood frames as opposed to "laminated timber", and similar in appearance to actual "laminates"; were the dark green from the start. One batch at least appeared new with no lining or snails at all, and silver window frames, but were repainted the then-normal livery of the dark green with upper and lower thick eau-de-nil bands, edged in black and white.

If it's a pic you're looking at, it is likely that the vehicle is a 1951-3 coach like this.

There's one thing though - in the late 1950s, a small number of secondary stock, mostly oul wrecks in West Cork and West Clare stuff, was given an unlined coact of dark green - probably to use it up. This was a sort of half-way-house unofficial livery, a bit like the raccoon pair of 201s today.

The "pre-laminates" were, of course, laterally painted in the lighter green after 1956, before getting their black'n'tan coats after 1962.

Lovely Donegal-esque job on that little tank engine! It actually shows perfectly why some people have incorrectly assumed that the GNR blue engines and CDR red engines had black domes! They never did - and your weathering job shows the reality as perfectly as the real thing!

 

 

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1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

No. The lighter green livery appeared about 1956, and the laminates were initially unpainted, though with this becoming a total mess almost instantly in traffic, the earlier ones were repainted in green from about 1957 onwards; the later ones lighter green from the start.

However, ALL of the 1951-3 coaches, often referred to as "laminates" but with solid wood frames as opposed to "laminated timber", and similar in appearance to actual "laminates"; were the dark green from the start. One batch at least appeared new with no lining or snails at all, and silver window frames, but were repainted the then-normal livery of the dark green with upper and lower thick eau-de-nil bands, edged in black and white.

If it's a pic you're looking at, it is likely that the vehicle is a 1951-3 coach like this.

There's one thing though - in the late 1950s, a small number of secondary stock, mostly oul wrecks in West Cork and West Clare stuff, was given an unlined coact of dark green - probably to use it up. This was a sort of half-way-house unofficial livery, a bit like the raccoon pair of 201s today.

The "pre-laminates" were, of course, laterally painted in the lighter green after 1956, before getting their black'n'tan coats after 1962.

Lovely Donegal-esque job on that little tank engine! It actually shows perfectly why some people have incorrectly assumed that the GNR blue engines and CDR red engines had black domes! They never did - and your weathering job shows the reality as perfectly as the real thing!

 

 

Thank you very much jhb, for the information and the very kind words. 

The reason I asked about the coaches was because I've sprayed some coaches green (BR Mk1s- please look away purists!) and have ordered some snail transfers, but I didn't buy any of the EdN bands. I may well just paint these on by hand as the transfers for them were very expensive. 

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1 hour ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Thank you very much jhb, for the information and the very kind words. 

The reason I asked about the coaches was because I've sprayed some coaches green (BR Mk1s- please look away purists!) and have ordered some snail transfers, but I didn't buy any of the EdN bands. I may well just paint these on by hand as the transfers for them were very expensive. 

If you've painted them the lighter green, they would only have had a thinner waistline in pale green. Easy to do with a ruler in hand, hopefully?

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6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If you've painted them the lighter green, they would only have had a thinner waistline in pale green. Easy to do with a ruler in hand, hopefully?

Unfortunately they're in the darker shade, or as close to it as I could get:

IMG_20220716_170850.jpg

The two coaches with separate sides there have beading above and below the window which will greatly help, and for the others I will use lots of masking tape and patience! 

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3 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Unfortunately they're in the darker shade, or as close to it as I could get:

IMG_20220716_170850.jpg

The two coaches with separate sides there have beading above and below the window which will greatly help, and for the others I will use lots of masking tape and patience! 

😄  Coaches very nicely sprayed…… practice painted lining on a bit of scrap plastic maybe?

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I am not the greatest at lining,.

I usually paint coaches in 2/3 colours using spray can auto paint and masking using Tamiya masking tape which is available in a variety of widths.

I don't remember whether I did the eau-de-nil strip using transfers (from Studio Scale Models) or masking.

1623527304_DSCF4784(2).jpg.0c6dc871b8f6bd5ad86137ff18fb0b1e.jpg

1073046096_DSCF4789(2).jpg.5f51c6eb0d22cf321f8eca06c302229e.jpg

As a general rule I cut the edge of the tape against a straight edge with a sharp knife before applying the masking take to the model as the edge of the role may be damaged or not 100% straight.

Carefully dress the tape around raised and recessed body detail before spraying the sides (and masking tape) with a light coat of body colour, this will stop the lining/second colour bleeding into the details ruining the model.

The spray of hand paint the lining colour.

I usually have 'livery colours" such as green, golden brown custom mixed by a local automotive/industrial paint supplier matched from existing models or colour samples.

Starting from scratch the best option is to spray the body/side in the lining colour then mask for the body colour.

2069488731_IMG_1667(2).jpg.5bc6ca71b1172e89898c6754b38c27da.jpg

The middle Tin Van has been spayed in white before applying the black and the tan as the livery colours, the van on the left is in silver livery colour, the van on the right in eau-de-nil primer before applying the light green livery colour.

 

424114120_IMG_0178(2).jpg.0d6cbdf0d4464e64a49cdc144355ac1d.jpg

1767949627_IMG_0175(2).jpg.0013b3c584733a653213d7a2d9f7d11a.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

😄  Coaches very nicely sprayed…… practice painted lining on a bit of scrap plastic maybe?

Thanks and will do! 

 

30 minutes ago, Mayner said:

I am not the greatest at lining,.

I usually paint coaches in 2/3 colours using spray can auto paint and masking using Tamiya masking tape which is available in a variety of widths.

I don't remember whether I did the eau-de-nil strip using transfers (from Studio Scale Models) or masking.

1623527304_DSCF4784(2).jpg.0c6dc871b8f6bd5ad86137ff18fb0b1e.jpg

1073046096_DSCF4789(2).jpg.5f51c6eb0d22cf321f8eca06c302229e.jpg

As a general rule I cut the edge of the tape against a straight edge with a sharp knife before applying the masking take to the model as the edge of the role may be damaged or not 100% straight.

Carefully dress the tape around raised and recessed body detail before spraying the sides (and masking tape) with a light coat of body colour, this will stop the lining/second colour bleeding into the details ruining the model.

The spray of hand paint the lining colour.

I usually have 'livery colours" such as green, golden brown custom mixed by a local automotive/industrial paint supplier matched from existing models or colour samples.

Starting from scratch the best option is to spray the body/side in the lining colour then mask for the body colour.

2069488731_IMG_1667(2).jpg.5bc6ca71b1172e89898c6754b38c27da.jpg

The middle Tin Van has been spayed in white before applying the black and the tan as the livery colours, the van on the left is in silver livery colour, the van on the right in eau-de-nil primer before applying the light green livery colour.

 

424114120_IMG_0178(2).jpg.0d6cbdf0d4464e64a49cdc144355ac1d.jpg

1767949627_IMG_0175(2).jpg.0013b3c584733a653213d7a2d9f7d11a.jpg

 

Those look great! Next time I'll be sure to spray the lining colour first. Thanks for the advice, I hadn't thought about trimming the edge of the tape, I'll keep that in mind :)

 

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