Silverfox CIE era Heating Vans

[Noel]

Recently received these two beauties from Silverfox who cater so well for my personal favourite era.

HLV or nicknamed 'Tin' van when silver, Modified Heating and Luggage Van

 

The famous CIE six wheeled HLV (Heating and Luggage Van). The fore and aft axles articulate beautifully. Both vans fitted with correctly sized and positioned NEM pockets so it was just a matter of fitting Kadee No 18s in seconds to change the couplings.

Thanks to Silverfox and Irish Freight Models for helping me to build a fleet of passenger rolling stock from the glorious CIE black'n'tan era. Have a few flying snail green laminates on the way. Laminates, vans, TPOs and Park Royals can now be mixed with my CIE variants of the MM cravens. 

6 Wheel HLV + Laminate + HLV (modified version). Normally only a single HLV would be in a formation but a spare is being repositioned from Ennis to Sligo via Claremorris. Both of these two vans are in the queue for weathering, but couplings already changed.

 

[jhb171achill]

Doesn't that just look the business! 

Very like the set I travelled in over the line in 1975.... I do remember the "tin van" (LV) was down a bit on the springs on one side, giving it a somewhat lop-sided appearance. Today, that would result in a six-month bus substitution, but back then they just got on with it! The carriage I was in was an aging but spotlessly clean laminate.

[DiveController]

I do like the 6w variant of the 3153-6 series heating van although we''ll not see a higher quality version of it.

There were only 4 of them iirc in an era that's not currently catered for very much.  They weighed in a a whopping 21T on a 30ft body with twin boilers but ooze 60s era.

Stuck behind a black A class, maybe even a yellow warning panel would be super class. I don't  think the SF model probably does real justice to the width, profile and detail of the prototype but very nice to have all the same.

Edited August 1, 2021 by DiveController

[Noel]

10 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I do like the 6w variant of the 3153-6 series heating van although we''ll not see a higher quality version of it.

There were only 4 of them iirc in an era that's not currently catered too very much.  They weighed in a a whopping 21T on a 30ft body with twin boilers but ooze 60s era.

Stuck behind a black A class, maybe even a yellow warning panel would be super class. I don't  think the SF model probably does real justice to the width, profile and detail of the prototype but very nice to have all the same.

Agree it lacks that distinctive bulbulous tumblehome profile, but glad to have it  (copy right acknowledged providence un known)

[j11sty]

Would these be the genie van to match the MM Cravens?

There wasn't a GV made by MM for Cravens?

[murphaph]

There was no GSV made by MM to match the Cravens no. Silver fox do a RTR "Dutch van" which would suit if you don't feel comfortable building your own.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, j11sty said:

Would these be the genie van to match the MM Cravens?

There wasn't a GV made by MM for Cravens?

Yes, it would match cravens perfectly.

I have one of these but I’ve found it to be very prone to derailment….

[j11sty]

Thanks 

Or this one too by silver fox

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bsk/

 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, j11sty said:

Thanks 

Or this one too by silver fox

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bsk/

 

 

 

 

 

The BR van with single white stripe - early 70s to early 90s.

Double white stripes - 1990s to early 2000s.

For the 1960s (indeed, late 50s to early 70s), the four wheel tin vans are really the only show in town on practically ALL trains. The six-wheel ones were only seen in main lines. I saw them on the Enterprise and on the Cork line. Never saw a 6-wheeled one on the Midland, though I can’t say it didn’t ever happen.

[DiveController]

The Cravens coaches were introduced c. 1963/4 so there was a  decade when they were run with other GSVs prior to the arrival of the Dutch vans c.1969 and the BR Mk1s about 1972. The end of steam at that time necessitated the introduction of the 4w and 6w HLVs to provide steam heating in the winter months on passenger coaches

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, DiveController said:

The Cravens coaches were introduced c. 1963/4 so there was a  decade when they were run with other GSVs prior to the arrival of the Dutch vans c.1969 and the BR Mk1s about 1972. The end of steam at that time necessitated the introduction of the 4w and 6w HLVs to provide steam heating in the winter months on passenger coaches

Exactly - and these fell into three categories, in terms of how many there were / how common they were: (a) the various iterations of what are now generically known as "tin vans", officially "heating vans" and "luggage vans"; both with guard accommodation and brake; (b) rebuilt 1951-3 standards as brake gennies, and (c) the few six-wheeled "tin vans" (which were all heating vans - these tended to be seen almost entirely on main lines (my own personal recollections were only of seeing them on the "Enterprise" or the Cork line).

Then, of course, the Dutch ones in 1969 and the BR ones in 1972.

The last four wheeled tin vans to be seen in passenger traffic were on the three routes out of Limerick; Ballina, Rosslare and Ballybrophy, and on Dublin and Cork suburban services, where I believe they lasted until about 1977. The last I personally saw were in early spring 1976, on the Limerick - Ballina train of two laminates plus van. That service ended about 2 weeks later.

[flange lubricator]

25 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

 

The last four wheeled tin vans to be seen in passenger traffic were on the three routes out of Limerick; Ballina, Rosslare and Ballybrophy, and on Dublin and Cork suburban services, where I believe they lasted until about 1977. 

Here is a pictue of one in service on the Dublin Suburban in 1979 taken by Jeremy Chapter. A good weathering project

.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

34 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Here is a pictue of one in service on the Dublin Suburban in 1979 taken by Jeremy Chapter. A good weathering project

.

 

 

Later than I thought! Excellent, thanks.

[j11sty]

On 29/7/2021 at 11:16 AM, jhb171achill said:

Yes, it would match cravens perfectly.

I have one of these but I’ve found it to be very prone to derailment….

4 wheel or 6 wheel?

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, j11sty said:

4 wheel or 6 wheel?

The six-wheeler.

[j11sty]

Has anybody got the silver fox 4 wheel genie and I wondered how it match with MM Cravens?

I mean colour wise (especially the orange shaded)

Edited August 2, 2021 by j11sty

[jhb171achill]

I have.

Its marginally bright, but I’ve seen worse, and decent weathering sorts it out.

[patrick]

Here you go.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by patrick

[patrick]

The contrast seems less noticeable on the layout. The photo shows a heating van in a consist with a Murphy Models Craven and a Silvet Fox open composite.

Edited August 2, 2021 by patrick

[josefstadt]

10 hours ago, j11sty said:

Has anybody got the silver fox 4 wheel genie and I wondered how it match with MM Cravens?

I mean colour wise (especially the orange shaded)

The 4-wheel heating vans were steam heating vans only, no generators. The would therefore suit the early version of the Cravens, i.e. those without the TL suffix. 

[j11sty]

Very good thanks very much for replies

[flange lubricator]

17 hours ago, josefstadt said:

The 4-wheel heating vans were steam heating vans only, no generators. The would therefore suit the early version of the Cravens, i.e. those without the TL suffix. 

And Cravens with battery boxes which were an omission on the MM non TL Cravens.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by flange lubricator

[mfjoc]

When the Cravens were introduced they were fitted with belt driven generators and battery boxes for lighting which meant that they could be run during the summer months without a GSV. Often only with a laminate or GSR bogie coach with a break compartment. Loosing belts was a really common problem in that era and coupled with the hassle of maintaining batteries led to the TL conversion in the 1970's. The ride quality of the four and six wheel vans was terrible. The four wheel vans were gone by 1980 at the latest and while the six wheel vans survived a bit longer and I think they were fitted with a gen set. The shortage of bogie vans with gensets led to the conversion of the 3200 class from ex GSR stock. 

[j11sty]

My cravens are MM and are numbered ending TL 

Still I little head scratching which is best to go with

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, j11sty said:

My cravens are MM and are numbered ending TL 

Still I little head scratching which is best to go with

Well if you were being pedantic you would only run them with a GSV (Generating Steam Van ) .

[Mayner]

50 minutes ago, j11sty said:

My cravens are MM and are numbered ending TL 

Still I little head scratching which is best to go with

The ex-BR "Vans" http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bsk/ is probably the best option for a van for TL fitted Cravens. 

The "Dutch Vans" were less common (6) compared to the larger number (22) of ex-BR Vans

The Cravens were used almost exclusively on main line Intercity services until some were "cascaded" onto Outer Suburban and Secondary Passenger services following the introduction of the MK3 Stock from 1983 onwards.

Typical main line TL sets were usually made up of a "BR Van" "1951-53 Buffer Car and several Craven Coaches, TL fitted Park Royal & Laminate coaches were sometimes used to strengthen main line rakes.

 

[j11sty]

Super, that makes sense... Now to try and get one 

[Noel]

These SF ones need a little weathering to tone down the shade of tan, but very happy with both the 4 wheel and 6 wheel variants. The are the right era for Gort.

[StevieB]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:41 AM, flange lubricator said:

And Cravens with battery boxes which were an omission on the MM non TL Cravens.

 

 

I first came across this photo in The Railway Magaine of August 1964 in an article entitled ‘New Irish coaches are versatile’. The order was for 70 coaches from Cravens of Sheffield, 10 to be delivered complete, 30 coming as shells to be completed at Inchicore and 30 to be constructed at Inchicore with technical help from Cravens. Of particular interest was that the vacuum brake was compatible with the brake system used on the railcars then in use. One final point is the figure 2 on the doors denoting they were second class.

Stephen

[j11sty]

Great information thank you

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, StevieB said:

I first came across this photo in The Railway Magaine of August 1964 in an article entitled ‘New Irish coaches are versatile’. The order was for 70 coaches from Cravens of Sheffield, 10 to be delivered complete, 30 coming as shells to be completed at Inchicore and 30 to be constructed at Inchicore with technical help from Cravens. Of particular interest was that the vacuum brake was compatible with the brake system used on the railcars then in use. One final point is the figure 2 on the doors denoting they were second class.

Stephen

Interesting, as 70 were never built! 

Regarding railcar use, only a couple were ever used as such - I’ve a note of the numbers somewhere - but as far as I know only on a trial run or two, never in routine, normal, regular traffic.

All black’n’tan carriages old and new had a “1” or “2” when new, though the “2”’s weren’t continued. All Cravens were second only, soon to be standard only, when new. 

[WRENNEIRE]

1549 First Class
Right or wrong?
Askin for a friend....

[jhb171achill]

26 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

1549 First Class
Right or wrong?
Askin for a friend....

Right, for that one only. One was briefly “converted” to a first, simply by throwing antimacassars over the seat backs and painting “1”s on the doors! But it was standard as built and reverted to that after a short time.

Edited August 5, 2021 by jhb171achill

[flange lubricator]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Right, for that one only. One was briefly “converted” to a first, simply by throwing antimacassars over the seat backs and painting “1”s on the doors! But it was standard as built and reverted to that after a short time.

1149 and 1150  were fitted out with 1st class two plus one seating carpets and curtains on the windows they were proper 1st class coaches 

 http://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/irish-railways-cie/eA25CE8DE the caption is incorrect it says a Mk2 its actually a Craven

Edited August 5, 2021 by flange lubricator

[josefstadt]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Right, for that one only. One was briefly “converted” to a first, simply by throwing antimacassars over the seat backs and painting “1”s on the doors! But it was standard as built and reverted to that after a short time.

Sorry jhb but that's not correct.

There were five Cravens 1st Class carriages, 1147 - 1151. They were fitted with proper 1st class seating, not 'simply by throwing antimacassars over the seat backs'!

1147 - ex Standard 1551 - converted 1969 - 37 seats - reverted to 1551 06/72 
1148 - ex Standard 1547 - converted 1970 - 37 seats - reverted to 1547 12/74
1149 - ex Standard 1558 - converted 1970 - 37 seats - increased to 40 seats in 1981 - reverted to 1558 12/84
1150 - ex Standard 1548 - converted 1970 - 37 seats - increased to 40 seats in 1981 - reverted to 1548 10/84
1151 - ex Standard 1547 - converted 1980 - 40 seats - reverted to 1547 03/85

Edited August 5, 2021 by josefstadt