Steam locomotive question

[Westcorkrailway]

So......i know this has been done to death before. But say you had the choice to make a silverfox style steam loco plastic kit with donor chassis ect. Which loco would you choose for such treatment. Maebh, merlin, no4, A bandon tank....or maybe something more obscure.....coaches from the era are also a loud to be suggested

 

You never know this might be handy information to somone

[GSR 800]

Well the question is what has the most suitable chassis you can pull off, lot harder to cut and shut a steam locomotive(!) but realistically unless you've got serious kit or access to serious kit (ala Kirley making the BCDR Baltic) there aren't many suitable chassis to fit an irish prototype, so any kit will be limited by that.

that said, Jeeps are probably up there, maybe the ncc moguls too, could they fit under some Crab chassis?

800s, maybe 400s and 500s could be lobbed under royal scot, n15 and s15 class, J15s under deans good and likely many other 0-6-0 types, V class under compound chassis. Problems arise in that they would have to be designed around the doners, could effect accuracy.

The issue is in many of these cases there are already brass kits available, in many cases you can build off the donar body and get a decent result, and if (dare I say when..) something like a full rtr 800 or J15 comes about these things will simply get blown out of the water.

market could be there for more obscure types. As I've said before, I think it's unlikely many of the GSR 4-4-0s will see any rtr for a long time, 4-4-0 chassis are usually quite basic, kit builds usually being difficult due to balancing. Hard not to see how it wouldn't be a niche in a niche though.

[jhb171achill]

Another thing is 21mm conversion. A small few of our number use 21mm gauge. It’s easier to re-gauge a diesel than most steam!

Imagine the work in re-gauging a 400 or an 800.....

[GSR 800]

22 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Another thing is 21mm conversion. A small few of our number use 21mm gauge. It’s easier to re-gauge a diesel than most steam!

Imagine the work in re-gauging a 400 or an 800.....

brass kit or scratchbuild is easier at that stage

[murrayec]

1 minute ago, GSR 800 said:

brass kit or scratchbuild is easier at that stage

Have to agree there on brass kits!

I would recommend kits from Studio Scale Models- J15, Bandon Tank, Maebh and Merlin are all available in full kit form including the chassis and can be built to 21mm if required.

Eoin

 

[GSR 800]

2 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Have to agree there on brass kits!

I would recommend kits from Studio Scale Models- J15, Bandon Tank, Maebh and Merlin are all available in full kit form including the chassis and can be built to 21mm if required.

Eoin

 

Agreed, all high quality kits!

DItto with JM models, similar allowance for 21mm.

[jhb171achill]

I think the only way to do RTR steam is the likes of 00 Works small batches.

 

[GSR 800]

27 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I think the only way to do RTR steam is the likes of 00 Works small batches.

 

Outside the famous, preserved types, 800, V class, S class, J15s, perhaps the (nearly preserved) Bandons, I'd be inclined to agree.

Too much in the way of diversity in classes, too little notoriety, many more famous examples (850, Sambo) are one offs.

Even for something like the 400s, mainline steam with decent numbers, I feel there would be a real need to get the locomotives promoted to be somewhat more in 'public' knowledge before ever going down the RTR track. Preserved locos have an automatic advantage in that regard, not to mention can get away with pulling more modern stock, even have the RPSI set to haul.

Edited April 15, 2021 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

43 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Outside the famous, preserved types, 800, V class, S class, J15s, perhaps the (nearly preserved) Bandons, I'd be inclined to agree.

Too much in the way of diversity in classes, too little notoriety, many more famous examples (850, Sambo) are one offs.

Even for something like the 400s, mainline steam with decent numbers, I feel there would be a real need to get the locomotives promoted to be somewhat more in 'public' knowledge before ever going down the RTR track. Preserved locos have an automatic advantage in that regard, not to mention can get away with pulling more modern stock, even have the RPSI set to haul.

True - hence my occasional suggestions of 4 or 171....

[connollystn]

It's a pity there were no 4-6-0s preserved by the RPSI. I've been wading through Irishswissernie's massive photographic collection and there were some impressive locomotives. It's a tad depressing to see what we've lost.

[Galteemore]

I’ve had this conversation with my dad, who’s been in the RPSI since 1964. He told me the initial plan was simply to save a GNR rail bus! They have managed instead to put 3 GN 4-4-0s back in steam....we could have been a lot worse off. I do think it unfortunate that CIE didn’t set aside say 6 locos that may have been a representative ‘national collection’ as the UK did. I think the absence of a GSWR 4-4-0 and MGW 2-4-0 is especially unfortunate.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Galteemore

[GSR 800]

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

True - hence my occasional suggestions of 4 or 171....

S class definitely, well known, good looking locomotives with attractive liveries and a preserved example.

J15s are a good bet too.

7 minutes ago, connollystn said:

It's a pity there were no 4-6-0s preserved by the RPSI. I've been wading through Irishswissernie's massive photographic collection and there were some impressive locomotives. It's a tad depressing to see what we've lost.

Cost would be immense, 400s travel availablility wouldn't be much better than the 800s, iirc Clements mentioned issues regarding frame strength. Would be a nightmare in terms of fueling costs, and creeping up well past the ton in years.

500s would've been a better bet but still would be very expensive. Seemingly all withdrawn relatively early (mid 50s) wheras some 400s lingered on.

GSR 4-4-0s are the biggest miss, along with the Bandon tank.

Alas I won't cry over spilled milk.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

I’ve had this conversation with my dad, who’s been in the RPSI since 1964. He told me the initial plan was simply to save a GNR rail bus! They have managed instead to put 3 GN 4-4-0s back in steam....we could have been a lot worse off. I do think it unfortunate that CIE didn’t set aside say 6 locos that may have been a representative ‘national collection’ as the UK did. I think the absence of a GSWR 4-4-0 and MGW 2-4-0 is especially unfortunate.

A MGWR anything, indeed!

We've NCC, BCDR, GNR, CDR, DNGR, SLNCR, GSWR, GSR, DSER....yes, only CBSCR and MGWR are missing. Not even a wagon in the case of the CBSCR, though we've four half-decent MGWR coaches, though all virtually beyond restoration in one form or other.......

[Westcorkrailway]

21 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

A MGWR anything, indeed!

We've NCC, BCDR, GNR, CDR, DNGR, SLNCR, GSWR, GSR, DSER....yes, only CBSCR and MGWR are missing. Not even a wagon in the case of the CBSCR, though we've four half-decent MGWR coaches, though all virtually beyond restoration in one form or other.......

Ehhh, No.90 counts for something for me with her infamous stint on the CBCSR

7 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Well the question is what has the most suitable chassis you can pull off, lot harder to cut and shut a steam locomotive(!) but realistically unless you've got serious kit or access to serious kit (ala Kirley making the BCDR Baltic) there aren't many suitable chassis to fit an irish prototype, so any kit will be limited by that.

that said, Jeeps are probably up there, maybe the ncc moguls too, could they fit under some Crab chassis?

800s, maybe 400s and 500s could be lobbed under royal scot, n15 and s15 class, J15s under deans good and likely many other 0-6-0 types, V class under compound chassis. Problems arise in that they would have to be designed around the doners, could effect accuracy.

The issue is in many of these cases there are already brass kits available, in many cases you can build off the donar body and get a decent result, and if (dare I say when..) something like a full rtr 800 or J15 comes about these things will simply get blown out of the water.

market could be there for more obscure types. As I've said before, I think it's unlikely many of the GSR 4-4-0s will see any rtr for a long time, 4-4-0 chassis are usually quite basic, kit builds usually being difficult due to balancing. Hard not to see how it wouldn't be a niche in a niche though.

Just the kind of advice i was looking for. Ids say the only 3 canditates for RTR steam locos are maebh, merlin and a j15 (again thanks to 00 works) from any major modeling company. 00 works have made the U class which i think had sufficient enough numbers sold. 

Really these things come down to is if there Is a chassis or not

[minister_for_hardship]

4 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

S class definitely, well known, good looking locomotives with attractive liveries and a preserved example.

J15s are a good bet too.

Cost would be immense, 400s travel availablility wouldn't be much better than the 800s, iirc Clements mentioned issues regarding frame strength. Would be a nightmare in terms of fueling costs, and creeping up well past the ton in years.

500s would've been a better bet but still would be very expensive. Seemingly all withdrawn relatively early (mid 50s) wheras some 400s lingered on.

GSR 4-4-0s are the biggest miss, along with the Bandon tank.

Alas I won't cry over spilled milk.

If we did new builds and turntables here, ideally you would need a decent go most places 4-6-0 or Woolworth, that can be trusted not to hold up services for the normals on the modern network and haul plenty bums on seats. 

A new build MGWR loco or one of those crimson WLWR yokes slathered in copper and brass would be a fine sight, but without any kind of a decent distance go-somewhere-to-somewhere-else private preserved line, theres not much call for things like that.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 minute ago, minister_for_hardship said:

A new build MGWR loco or one of those crimson WLWR yokes slathered in copper and brass would be a fine sight, but without any kind of a decent distance go-somewhere-to-somewhere-else private preserved line, theres not much call for things like that.

Maybe something for the volunteers at Maam cross to think of for the long long term!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Ehhh, No.90 counts for something for me with her infamous stint on the CBCSR

You're stretching it there! 

In immediate pre-steam days, most of what ran in Wisht Caark was actually not of CBSCR parentage, anyway, so 90 is as good as it gets, indeed. My understanding is that the DCDR will in time return it to working on public trains there.

Towards the end of the CBCS system, about the only thing which REGULARLY ran on it which owed its origin to anything other than the MGWR, CIE or GSWR, was the old brake van off the Courtmac branch, T&CR No. 5 (GSR / CIE 5J)........... 

43 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

If we did new builds and turntables here, ..............

 

........which makes one wonder why on earth the RPSI is building a new-build tender engine instead of a second "Jeep"! Soon, the nearest turntable to Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Galway, Westport, Ballina and Sligo will be in Dublin!

[Westcorkrailway]

6 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

You're stretching it there! 

In immediate pre-steam days, most of what ran in Wisht Caark was actually not of CBSCR parentage, anyway, so 90 is as good as it gets, indeed. My understanding is that the DCDR will in time return it to working on public trains there.

Towards the end of the CBCS system, about the only thing which REGULARLY ran on it which owed its origin to anything other than the MGWR, CIE or GSWR, was the old brake van off the Courtmac branch, T&CR No. 5 (GSR / CIE 5J)........... 

The short boogie carridges were the only other notable thing and they were widrawn in the late 50s. Some of the things like the baldwin tanks and the saddle tanks were deffinetly not favoured by the GSR. Bandon tanks were just a great design which helped them earn there keep and venture to DSER sections

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

.......which makes one wonder why on earth the RPSI is building a new-build tender engine instead of a second "Jeep"! Soon, the nearest turntable to Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Galway, Westport, Ballina and Sligo will be in Dublin!

 Or have lough erne and 464 doublehead filling up with coal and water every second station!

[GSR 800]

39 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

If we did new builds and turntables here, ideally you would need a decent go most places 4-6-0 or Woolworth, that can be trusted not to hold up services for the normals on the modern network and haul plenty bums on seats. 

A new build MGWR loco or one of those crimson WLWR yokes slathered in copper and brass would be a fine sight, but without any kind of a decent distance go-somewhere-to-somewhere-else private preserved line, theres not much call for things like that.

 

With an NCC mogul under construction, it's clear the way to go for any kind of new build would be mid size, with commonality of parts between other in use preserved locomotives. Very clear from the RPSI site the primary reason to go ahead with it at all was commonality of parts.

The problem for anything new build outside of the GNR and NCC origin stuff is there's nothing in service to standardise to, unless 461 has a common boiler, cylinders and other fittings to other GSR types? Good thing about a Woolwich would be it has cousins across the way.

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but tis only speculation!

 

[Lambeg man]

2 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Good thing about a Woolwich would be it has cousins across the way

Thank you for that GSR 800. I have struggled to satisfy myself as to why the Woolwich Mogul in pristine CIE green livery that runs on my 1960's layout was in fact the first Irish steam locomotive to be 'preserved'! Of course, easy access to spares from SR 'U' class... Saved by CIE, they of course donated to the RPSI in 1965!!!

[Galteemore]

In terms of suitability for current loads and steam diagrams ( the real RPSI money spinners are the Dublin short hauls) etc the Q class 131 is about as spot on as you’d get - bar the turning issue. A Glover tank would be even better, arguably....image from Mike Morant

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

In terms of suitability for current loads and steam diagrams ( the real RPSI money spinners are the Dublin short hauls) etc the Q class 131 is about as spot on as you’d get - bar the turning issue. A Glover tank would be even better, arguably....image from Mike Morant

The GSR 820 Class 4-6-2T proposal with its medium power output larger bunker capacity seems ideal for the RPSIs profitable short haul work, otherwise a second WT would be a no-brainer.

Going back to the original question the contemporary absence of a readily available rtr chassis like the Triang/Triang  0-6-0, 4-4-0 and B12 4-6-0 chassis is probably the greatest barrier to producing a OO gauge body-line kit for an Irish Steam loco.

Most of the whitemetal steam locomotive kits produced by Bec, Gem and Wills were originally designed to fit contemporary Triang and Hornby classis.  GEM and Wills began producing chassis for locos when no suitable rtr chassis was available. Wills re-tooled many of their kits including more accurate brass chassis in response to changing modeller expectations around detail and accuracy following the developed of etched and composite kits in the 80s.

While the Bachmann Jinty, 3F and 4F were fairly close in wheelbase to the large GSWR J4 and J9 0-6-0 Classes obtaining a loco or chassis may be challenging as Bachmann appear to have discontinued the models, though the Bachmann LNER J72 appears similar in size to the ex-MGWR J26 tank locos but how many modellers would be prepared to pay over £100 for a donor loco/chassis plus up to £70-80 for an unpainted 3d printed body. 

[NorthWallDocker]

17 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

But say you had the choice to make a silverfox style steam loco plastic kit with donor chassis ect. Which loco would you choose for such treatment.

You might want to set up a poll for subscribers to vote.  Maybe set up a few category questions for the first round:  what time periods (1850-1879, 1880-1900, 1901-25, etc); major companies; major or popular locomotive classes for each railway.  You might also want to survey for desired scale: 4mm, 7mm, 15mm.

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

The GSR 820 Class 4-6-2T proposal with its medium power output larger bunker capacity seems ideal for the RPSIs profitable short haul work, otherwise a second WT would be a no-brainer.

 

 

Agreed, John - I simply put in a T2 for variety! A 2nd or even 3rd WT could have been acquired - a number of Jeeps lasted until at least late 1971 in storage. Funding was the problem - it was enough of a stretch to pick up one. The RPSI were also wary of taking on locos that required a lot of work in those days. Until the early 80s, perhaps, Whitehead had very basic overhaul facilities. 

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, NorthWallDocker said:

You might want to set up a poll for subscribers to vote.  Maybe set up a few category questions for the first round:  what time periods (1850-1879, 1880-1900, 1901-25, etc); major companies; major or popular locomotive classes for each railway.  You might also want to survey for desired scale: 4mm, 7mm, 15mm.

I would but i find the polls to be too precise and end up being to vague and not great data to be honest. If anyone has any steam loco they would like to see in this fashion. The can put it in here. Scale isint going to be as much of an issue as people think in this case. 

[NorthWallDocker]

Personally, I'd enjoy a rake of GSR Pullman coaches, to scale and exact in detail.  Worsley Works makes etched brass sides as "scratch-aids."

[airfixfan]

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A MGWR anything, indeed!

We've NCC, BCDR, GNR, CDR, DNGR, SLNCR, GSWR, GSR, DSER....yes, only CBSCR and MGWR are missing. Not even a wagon in the case of the CBSCR, though we've four half-decent MGWR coaches, though all virtually beyond restoration in one form or other.......

What about the LLSR or the NCC Narrow Gauge?

[Galteemore]

I suppose 100% of the 3’ NCC Portstewart Tramway loco stock survives . I do agree though - one of the huge LLSR tanks would be nice - as would one of the classic little NCC 2-4-2Ts.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

4 hours ago, NorthWallDocker said:

Personally, I'd enjoy a rake of GSR Pullman coaches, to scale and exact in detail.  Worsley Works makes etched brass sides as "scratch-aids."

Anyine got photos of the irish pullmans? Ive only seen 2. One in an arial shot of cork in the 30s and one in a siding left abandoned. They were in a green livery that looked interesting. They would certainly be something enough people would be interested in

[GSR 800]

22 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Anyine got photos of the irish pullmans? Ive only seen 2. One in an arial shot of cork in the 30s and one in a siding left abandoned. They were in a green livery that looked interesting. They would certainly be something enough people would be interested in

One can see that they were the "matchstick" variant.

I believe there was usually only one in a train, at least by CIE days. Theres a photo of 102 withdrawn in a siding at Naas in 1959 in Irish Railways in Colour, still in the older dark green and eu de nil livery, which may be what you are referring to. JB would probably know if any of the three got as far as the light green, I'd doubt it myself.

Good thread on them here 

 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Galteemore said:

I suppose 100% of the 3’ NCC Portstewart Tramway loco stock survives . I do agree though - one of the huge LLSR tanks would be nice - as would one of the classic little NCC 2-4-2Ts.

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive.

While "Midland red" was the way of things in Brexitland, the ex-BNCR retained the dark green, until LMS NCC days.

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

 

I believe there was usually only one in a train, at least by CIE days. Theres a photo of 102 withdrawn in a siding at Naas in 1959 in Irish Railways in Colour, still in the older dark green and eu de nil livery, which may be what you are referring to. JB would probably know if any of the three got as far as the light green, I'd doubt it myself.

 

 

Correct. There was never a full train of them. One each on the up and won day mails to / from Cork and Galway. They were never used elsewhere, expect perhaps as a one-off of some sort long after they were no longer pullmans.

And yes, they ended their days in the dark green, but with lining as above.

[minister_for_hardship]

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive.

Did Cultra paint anything in the right colours?!

[hexagon789]

14 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive.

While "Midland red" was the way of things in Brexitland, the ex-BNCR retained the dark green, until LMS NCC days.

Correct. There was never a full train of them. One each on the up and won day mails to / from Cork and Galway. They were never used elsewhere, expect perhaps as a one-off of some sort long after they were no longer pullmans.

And yes, they ended their days in the dark green, but with lining as above.

I think they ran to Limerick at one point, possibly when first in service, I'm sure I've seen a flier with timings somewhere. I did also read a very short piece in a society publication about the GSR cars which said they later ran to Sligo(!?). I've never come across that anywhere else though, the same publication stated that the underframe of one survived on a vehicle in departmental use until ~1981.

[NorthWallDocker]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive.

While "Midland red" was the way of things in Brexitland, the ex-BNCR retained the dark green, until LMS NCC days.

Correct. There was never a full train of them. One each on the up and won day mails to / from Cork and Galway. They were never used elsewhere, expect perhaps as a one-off of some sort long after they were no longer pullmans.

And yes, they ended their days in the dark green, but with lining as above.

The Pullman Society of the U.K's newsletter PULLMAN No. 55 (July-August 2020), pages 5-11, includes an article about the four Irish Pullman coaches.  Drawings of an Irish Pullman's side, end, and floorplan -- with numerous exact measurements -- appear on pages 6 and 7.  A number of the photos in the article date from 1926 or shortly after and show the original as-delivered paint scheme with PULLMAN across the letterboard (including a coach being lifted onto the ferry boat for shipment to Ireland). 

The GSR Pullman coaches were wider than English and a few feet difference in length.  So a Hornby model in OO with similar window arrangements  is too narrow, maybe too short.  

I think a rake would look great behind an 800-class loco, even though they worked solo in other trains.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by NorthWallDocker
updated factual information / updated citation

[GSR 800]

26 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive.

While "Midland red" was the way of things in Brexitland, the ex-BNCR retained the dark green, until LMS NCC days.

Correct. There was never a full train of them. One each on the up and won day mails to / from Cork and Galway. They were never used elsewhere, expect perhaps as a one-off of some sort long after they were no longer pullmans.

And yes, they ended their days in the dark green, but with lining as above.

Made it as far as Limerick too no?

Cultra has definitely made some bizarre decisions on livery, slapping G S on Maedbh after CIE had just repainted her in the Dark CIE green is just one!