Ballybeg

[Killucan2]

There's nothing definite on future release's,and that includes the 121.

[Warbonnet]

I know most folk seem to be longing for 121s as the next MM product but 001 (A) class could perhaps outsell 121s by 3:1

 

What do you base that statement on?

[Garfield]

There's nothing definite on future release's,and that includes the 121.

 

Never said anything about future releases, but the 121 is ahead of the A in the pecking order.

[Noel]

What do you base that statement on?

 

Prototype Numbers. Could be wrong though.

 

In their day the 60 A class locos were the backbone of the network and I'm guessing more folks have 'nostalgia' memory of seeing and traveling on trains hauled by A class than the small 121 fleet. Also from a modelling perspective is it possible folk may buy only a pair of 121s to run nose to nose in double header pairs, but over time buy a stable of A classes due to their operational diversity.

 

Fleet size:

60 x MV A class

15 x GM 121 class

[enniscorthyman]

The speaker used in the 071 would fit the 121 body without any hassle I would think.

 

From speaking to Gerry about his MIR 121s

there is simply not enough room in the body

for a speaker, mainly because of the gear towers

and height of the motor and twin fly wheels used

on the Athearn SW 1500 chassis that were normally

used on the MIR 121 body's.Obviously it would great

to use the 141 sound chip in the 121 body, and hope

any future MM 121 loco will have room for a speaker.

I am not sure as regards any US switchers that might

have sound on board that might fit the MIR 121.

[Garfield]

Prototype Numbers. Could be wrong though.

 

In their day the 60 A class locos were the backbone of the network and I'm guessing more folks have 'nostalgia' memory of seeing and traveling on trains hauled by A class than the small 121 fleet. Also from a modelling perspective is it possible folk may buy only a pair of 121s to run nose to nose in double header pairs, but over time buy a stable of A classes due to their operational diversity.

 

Fleet size:

60 x MV A class

15 x GM 121 class

 

You're not taking into account the nostalgia people have for the 121s, too. Add to that the fact they saw service across five decades and hauled every type of train on the network. Plus, they can be run in multiple with the 141/181 class.

 

I'm conscious this discussion is bringing the thread off-topic, and has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, so maybe better to discuss in one of the pre-existing threads on the matter.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Garfield

[Warbonnet]

Prototype Numbers. Could be wrong though.

 

In their day the 60 A class locos were the backbone of the network and I'm guessing more folks have 'nostalgia' memory of seeing and traveling on trains hauled by A class than the small 121 fleet. Also from a modelling perspective is it possible folk may buy only a pair of 121s to run nose to nose in double header pairs, but over time buy a stable of A classes due to their operational diversity.

 

Fleet size:

60 x MV A class

15 x GM 121 class

 

It's not as simple as that. I think people mainly buy by things like different liveries etc for variety. I can't see someone buying 60 A Classes somehow if you're drawing down to operational numbers and as you say many times 121s operated in pairs so two numbers in each livery rather than one A in each livery. The only previous version of the 121 was the MIR kit whereas I'd bet a fair few silver fox kits have been sold in recent years, further restricting sales potential.

 

At the end of the day Paddy Murphy will have done his homework and that has led him to announcing his plans to do a 121 and as it stands it's the last model left to do from his last official announcement a number of years ago. If he is to do another newly tooled model it will be the 121.

[Warbonnet]

From speaking to Gerry about his MIR 121s

there is simply not enough room in the body

for a speaker, mainly because of the gear towers

and height of the motor and twin fly wheels used

on the Athearn SW 1500 chassis that were normally

used on the MIR 121 body's.Obviously it would great

to use the 141 sound chip in the 121 body, and hope

any future MM 121 loco will have room for a speaker.

I am not sure as regards any US switchers that might

have sound on board that might fit the MIR 121.

 

 

Possibly the Athearn Genesis MP15AC. Same sounds as a 121 too (except horn of course). Have one somewhere...

[irishthump]

From speaking to Gerry about his MIR 121s

there is simply not enough room in the body

for a speaker, mainly because of the gear towers

and height of the motor and twin fly wheels used

on the Athearn SW 1500 chassis that were normally

used on the MIR 121 body's.Obviously it would great

to use the 141 sound chip in the 121 body, and hope

any future MM 121 loco will have room for a speaker.

I am not sure as regards any US switchers that might

have sound on board that might fit the MIR 121.

 

I know but the Athearns gear towers take up a lot more space because of the connecting tabs on top, and the motor is much bulkier then what was used in the 141's. The same speaker in the 071 will fit into the 141 without the need for any surgery.

[Noel]

... I can't see someone buying 60 A Classes ...

 

Hi Fran.

No I didn't think anybody would want to buy 60 models of anything. 121 or 'A' in the next five years would be equally welcome. Anyway back on topic, the video of the 141/181 with the Zimo 'real drive' sound chip sounded great. I haven't heard a bass reflex speaker close up yet so I don't know if and how much difference they make. Ballybeg however does make a perfect backdrop for testing any sound loco. Nite all. Noel

[Georgeconna]

What about one of those Sugar Cube Speakers, They would surley fit in the cab? If you can get one into a Terrier I am sure u could squeeze one into a 121, Must take a look at the one I am building at the mo!

 

http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html

[Weshty]

Just too cool. And a myriad of configurations. Niche marketing at its finest.

[Irishrailwayman]

From speaking to Gerry about his MIR 121s

there is simply not enough room in the body

for a speaker, mainly because of the gear towers

and height of the motor and twin fly wheels used

on the Athearn SW 1500 chassis that were normally

used on the MIR 121 body's.Obviously it would great

to use the 141 sound chip in the 121 body, and hope

any future MM 121 loco will have room for a speaker.

I am not sure as regards any US switchers that might

have sound on board that might fit the MIR 121.

 

Athearn SW1500 chassis from America have gotten very expensive especially with the weak Euro. I haven't seen any available with sound. There is no room in the MIR bodies to house a decent speaker. However, with a new design for 121, it should be easy to engineer the space for at least a Bass Enhanced speaker.

[Warbonnet]

Athearn don't offer the SW1500s with sound at the moment. EBay would be the best bet for a 2nd hand donor.

[MikeO]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion on speakers. This is a great inspirational layout. Having seen earlier photos of the 121 in black, white and tan I converted my BR class 20 into a 121(some photos on my N gauge T-trak thread. I saw a Murphy Brothers goods wagon in red livery- is that that correct livery? . The reason I ask is that in one of the New Irishlines magazines, published on their website, there was discussion about the colour of the wagon and it was suggested that the colour might be a light colour such as "sand". I subsequently made an N gauge version in a "yellowish" colour. I need to remake the body of the wagon as it is not square and would like to get the livery correct.

 

I also liked the Kilkenny coal wagon is it a standard size of about 15ft in length and a 9ft wheel base?

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

Private owner wagons were exceptionally rare in Ireland. Unless I'm mistaken, the Kilkenny and Murphy ones are fictitious; I've never seen a photo of eitherf. The East Downshire Company had coal trucks on the Belfast and Co Down Railway, but there weren't many others. Instead, the railways would build wagons for private traffic, but they would almost always be in railway company livery.

 

The biggest thing on model Irish wagons to be aware of, probably, is that bought wagons all seem, without exception, to have black chassis as if they were passenger vehicles. Very few Irish wagons had black chassis (NCC "brown vans" were one exception, as they generally ran in passenger trains).

 

Prior to 1925, body (and matching chassis) colours varied from a very dark grey (almost black) as on the GSWR, to various shades of grey. Grey was universal among all companies 1925 - mid 1950s. At that stage, the GNR used brown on some stock, though most was grey; the UTA used brown on some in the 60s, and CIE started using brown in the 70s. Brown became the universal CIE colour after the elimination of loose-coupled goods stock in 1975 after cattle traffic ended.

 

In the era when a 121 would have run (60's - 2010's) four wheeled wagons would have been all grey, and no private owner wagons like Murphy or Kilkenny existed at all (so just use CIE plain grey for coal traffic!). As wooden four wheel opens were phased out in the late 60s, very few ever wore brown; they were taken over by Bullied steel wagons instead. These had unpainted steel bodies - a throwback to the unpainted silver "livery" of the 50s. Initially, chassis were the same, though in the 80s a few had brown chassis. Once doubled in height, at the end of the beet era, these were all brown.

[minister_for_hardship]

The Murphy Bros wagon did exist, have seen a builder's photo of one in New Irish Lines a good while back. Never seen one elsewhere though, so must have been either very short-lived and bought out by the GSR or whoever and painted grey like the rest or become so filthy and neglected that the wording couldn't be seen.

The Kilkenny Coal Co, like most of Hornby's Irish interpretations, are pure fiction.

The only other bona fide PO wagons from days of yore that I can think of off-hand are Ranks grain wagons, Mex/Irish Shell etc. oil tank wagons, Lyons Tea and Denny's containers.

Think there were Guinness wagons, not a lot it would seem, there's a pic of one in Achill in the 1890's/1900's in Rails to Achill by what's his name and I *think* the RPSI had a bogie version?

Edited June 2, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[DiveController]

The Murphy Bros wagon did exist, have seen a builder's photo of one in New Irish Lines a good while back. Never seen one elsewhere though, so must have been either very short-lived and bought out by the GSR or whoever and painted grey like the rest or become so filthy and neglected that the wording couldn't be seen.

The Kilkenny Coal Co, like most of Hornby's Irish interpretations, are pure fiction.

The only other bona fide PO wagons from days of yore that I can think of off-hand are Ranks grain wagons, Mex/Irish Shell etc. oil tank wagons, Lyons Tea and Denny's containers.

Think there were Guinness wagons, not a lot it would seem, there's a pic of one in Achill in the 1890's/1900's in Rails to Achill by what's his name and I *think* the RPSI had a bogie version?

 

Was the Dapol?-made Lyon's Tea anything like the prototype or that is fictional too (suspect the latter). Any pictures of Ranks or Denny's?

[minister_for_hardship]

Was the Dapol?-made Lyon's Tea anything like the prototype or that is fictional too (suspect the latter). Any pictures of Ranks or Denny's?

 

Very hard to find pics of the Ranks wagons, only ever seen pic of one with Ranks lettering still on it. There was a pic of the Denny container in a recent IRRS journal when new or nearly new. Looks well, red and white and Denny lettering in black.

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6190&d=1362575085

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=443&d=1336039221

[jhb171achill]

So few were any of the real ones (and thanks for clarifying actual existence of Murphy), that a layout attempting authenticity is probably better off without.

 

The "Guinness" wagons as shown in the book, and also similar were shed by the GNR to carry grain, were in coming grey with company markings; just the word "Guinness" added.

[DiveController]

Very hard to find pics of the Ranks wagons, only ever seen pic of one with Ranks lettering still on it. There was a pic of the Denny container in a recent IRRS journal when new or nearly new. Looks well, red and white and Denny lettering in black.

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6190&d=1362575085

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=443&d=1336039221

 

Nice job, minister:-bd

 

I wish we had a resources section where we could catalog these for reference. Great shots!

[minister_for_hardship]

So few were any of the real ones (and thanks for clarifying actual existence of Murphy), that a layout attempting authenticity is probably better off without.

 

The "Guinness" wagons as shown in the book, and also similar were shed by the GNR to carry grain, were in coming grey with company markings; just the word "Guinness" added.

 

Maybe just one or two to brighten up things, rather than masses upon masses of varying shades of grey!

Not quite PO, but the GNRI and GS&W did bright yellow(?) butter wagons, imagine they got the grey treatment eventually.

[Irishrailwayman]

Was the Dapol?-made Lyon's Tea anything like the prototype or that is fictional too (suspect the latter). Any pictures of Ranks or Denny's?

 

Irish Freight Models do the Lyons Tea 4-wheel wagon (see video above). I tend to run the Kilkenny Coal, Pierce's wagons etc on Ballybeg just for fun and variety of colour while acknowledging they are not strictly authentic!

[jhb171achill]

That's correct, minister. Generally, where the few non-grey liveries did exist, they were all made grey after the GSR came into being; it seems the GSR had an even greater liking for grey than even contemporary IE!

 

Certainly, for most of the 121-class era, anything four wheeled was grey entirely until about 1970, when the current brown (albeit with a slightly less reddish tint) began to appear. By the end of four wheel traffic, probably 60% of the fleet was brown! including allow bogie flats - these were never grey.

[MikeO]

Gentlemen thank you for your contributions to this issue. I will keep my Murphy Bros wagon as is for now( a mustard/yellow colour). I have found a copy of the extract and photo from the New irishlines magazine (have not got the issue number to hand). as this is already in the public domain with appropriate permissions it should be safe to have it on the forum.

 

 

With regard to Guinness wagons, there is a photo on page 10 of Railway History in Pictures Volume 2 by Alan McCutcheon, showing 2 bogie wagons with the name Guinness written on them and the initials GNR are visible on the left side of the first wagon. The photo was taken in August 1957 at the Guinness brewery in Dublin. The wagons are in the back ground as the main story is about how braod gauge wagons were moved about the brewery complex on narrow gauge lines by use of special haulage wagons.

 

This is my version of such a wagon.

 

 

I have seen a drawing (No 55C) of the GNR Butter van on which there is a printed note that says "PAINTED WHITE OUTSIDE" all in caps. There were 4 such vans, the last of which disappeared about November 1947. All 4 were converted, 2 to ordinary covered wagons and 2 to container flats.

 

This is my version of the butter wagon

 

 

Alphagraphix produced an OO scale GSWR Butter van in yellow. this is my N gauge version.

 

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

Very nice models indeed!

 

There are two prototypical GNR bogie ones at Whitehead, in various states of advanced distress. As you obviously know, they were always standard GNR grey with simply the word "GUINNESS" added. They were used for carrying grain and had hatches on the roofs.

[Irishrailwayman]

Very nice models indeed!

 

There are two prototypical GNR bogie ones at Whitehead, in various states of advanced distress. As you obviously know, they were always standard GNR grey with simply the word "GUINNESS" added. They were used for carrying grain and had hatches on the roofs.

 

Alphagraphix do a card 4mm model of the Guinness bogie GNR wagon and Irish Freight Models do a Guinness tanktainer which looks nice: http://www.irishfreightmodels.com/index.php/shop.html#!/Guinness-Wagons/c/3461297/offset=0&sort=normal

[MikeO]

Jhb171achill

 

I only got to one open day at Whitehead but did not see any Guinness Grain wagons. The two in Alan McCuteon's book do not seem to have any roof hatches. Have you any more information on the grain wagons. They would make an interesting addition to my wagon stock. I have seen a picture of a 4 wheel wagon with the name Guinness printed on it but do not know if it is authentic.

 

Irishrailwayman

 

I was not aware of the Alphagraphix Guinness bogie kit, it does not appear on their kit list that I have, which may be a bit out of date.

 

MikeO

Edited June 3, 2015 by MikeO

[DiveController]

Irish Freight Models do the Lyons Tea 4-wheel wagon (see video above). I tend to run the Kilkenny Coal, Pierce's wagons etc on Ballybeg just for fun and variety of colour while acknowledging they are not strictly authentic!

I have only got five of the Kilkenny's but put behind the grey Bachmann Woolwich with it 'gold' flyling snail and they look great

[Lough Erne]

The two Guinness Vans usually live out the back in the jungle - however they do surface now and again. See link below during a shunt. At least one of them retains the roof hatches for loading grain. Note the wagon has been modified with doors for loading barrels etc - when in use for grain traffic there were 2 possibly 3 hoppers inside - the marks of which are present on the internal cladding. The one pictured as JHB notes is in a very advanced state of distress!

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Distress?

Panic-stricken more like.

[MikeO]

minister

 

Thanks for the link, the Guinness Bogie wagon looks to be the same as those in Alan McCutcheon's book. My model is based on that photo plus some models that I saw at various exhibitions. With regard to the ranks wagon, there are a number of model wagons on display in Cultra. One of these is the Rank wagon. i have attached a photo I took of it. As it is in a glass case and there are various lights reflecting off the case hence the poor quality of the photo.

 

 

MikeO

[Irishrailwayman]

Jhb171achill

 

I only got to one open day at Whitehead but did not see any Guinness Grain wagons. The two in Alan McCuteon's book do not seem to have any roof hatches. Have you any more information on the grain wagons. They would make an interesting addition to my wagon stock. I have seen a picture of a 4 wheel wagon with the name Guinness printed on it but do not know if it is authentic.

 

Irishrailwayman

 

I was not aware of the Alphagraphix Guinness bogie kit, it does not appear on their kit list that I have, which may be a bit out of date.

 

MikeO

 

The Alphagraphix reference is CC72A or CC472B. The livery is grey "GN" No 609 "To carry 20 tons" with Guinness Dublin emblazoned on both sides! I got mine from Michael Morris at one of the Wexford exhibitions (€6). I haven't assembled mine but you would need a bogie chassis to make it operational.

[minister_for_hardship]

minister

 

Thanks for the link, the Guinness Bogie wagon looks to be the same as those in Alan McCutcheon's book. My model is based on that photo plus some models that I saw at various exhibitions. With regard to the ranks wagon, there are a number of model wagons on display in Cultra. One of these is the Rank wagon. i have attached a photo I took of it. As it is in a glass case and there are various lights reflecting off the case hence the poor quality of the photo.

 

 

MikeO

 

Interesting to note what appears to be a Fordson tractor as a load in an open wagon as opposed to the expected flat.

Would imagine flat wagons wouldn't be especially plentiful, probably they just needed to check if there was a crane of the right capacity at its destination to unload it.

[MikeO]

Irishrailwayman

 

Thanks for the reference number for the Alphagraphix Guinness wagon kit. I will look out for it. A chassis should not be a problem.

 

minister

 

I did not notice the tractor. It does look like a Fordson. I have an Oxford Die cast model in N gauge. maybe that should appear as a load for one one of the open wagons.

 

MikeO