I've just brought

[Colin R]

Hi Guys, I have just had deliver my three kits from John M In New Zealand:-

CIE Heating van 3101-3140

CIE Luggage Van 2700-61

CIE Post Office Van 2962-2971

Due to a possible move next year, I am going to put them into storage just in case I lose something from the boxes. but I do have one question did any of these run in the green livery (you can tell I haven't even open the box yet, so the answer may be inside)

 

Colin 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Colin R

[jhb171achill]

47 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Hi Guys, I have just had deliver my three kits from John M In New Zealand:-

CIE Heating van 3101-3140

CIE Luggage Van 2700-61

CIE Post Office Van 2962-2971

Due to a possible move next year, I am going to put them into storage just in case I lose something from the boxes. but I do have one question did any of these run in the green livery (you can tell I haven't even open the box yet, so the answer may be inside)

 

Colin 

 

Yes, they did. Not all, though - some went directly from the filthy "silver" straight to black'n'tan. The green used on those which did wear it, was the post-1955 lighter green, with a pale green waistline but no flying snail.

[DiveController]

The HLV and Hooded(LV) vans were in green for sure from photographs. The TPOs were rarer and I think yes but don't rely on that unless I revert having seen a photo. I think JB is saying all three types did but some within each type may have skipped a livery direct to BnT 

[flange lubricator]

Here is a B&W of one of the later Heating Vans with inward opening doors in green

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by flange lubricator

[DiveController]

It's the 4w TPO/Sorting Van that  I'm having a hard time finding, mThe older type TPOs were in lined green for sure but the 2962 series vans should have been after the silver livery they had

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

The HLV and Hooded(LV) vans were in green for sure from photographs. The TPOs were rarer and I think yes but don't rely on that unless I revert having seen a photo. I think JB is saying all three types did but some within each type may have skipped a livery direct to BnT 

Correct. There were very few TPOs, and while I have seen a bogie TPO in green I can't recall a 4-wheeled one. That is not to say there was no green 4-wheeled TPO - there may well have been. The "tin vans" (LV) and heating vans were certainly green as shown in those pics - but some of those two types went straight from "silver" to black'n'tan.

Livery note for silver: roof and chassis and ends silver too, not grey or black - though weathering made them look almost that way.....

[josefstadt]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:58 PM, DiveController said:

The HLV and Hooded(LV) vans were in green for sure from photographs. The TPOs were rarer and I think yes but don't rely on that unless I revert having seen a photo. I think JB is saying all three types did but some within each type may have skipped a livery direct to BnT 

 I am puzzled by the use of the term 'Hooded' when referring to the 4-wheel luggage brake vans (2700 - 2765). The vans were always called ‘Tin Vans’ when they were in service. Perhaps DiveController can elaborate on the origin of the term ‘Hooded’ and what it refers to?

According to Pender and Richards in their book 'Irish Railways Today' the original number series of the three types of 4-wheel vans were:

Heating Van = 3101-3141 (1955/6);  3142-3147 (1959); 3148-3152 (1960)

Luggage Brake Van = 2700-2765 (1957)

Post Office Sorting Van = 2962-2971 (1957)

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, josefstadt said:

 I am puzzled by the use of the term 'Hooded' when referring to the 4-wheel luggage brake vans (2700 - 2765). The vans were always called ‘Tin Vans’ when they were in service. Perhaps DiveController can elaborate on the origin of the term ‘Hooded’ and what it refers to?

According to Pender and Richards in their book 'Irish Railways Today' the original number series of the three types of 4-wheel vans were:

Heating Van = 3101-3141 (1955/6);  3142-3147 (1959); 3148-3152 (1960)

Luggage Brake Van = 2700-2765 (1957)

Post Office Sorting Van = 2962-2971 (1957)

They were also known as "hooded" vans by some railwaymen - jhbSenior and, for what it's worth, one old Kildare signalman who he knew, used to refer to them as such. I think the term came from an idea of a distinction between them - with internal "main line" dimensions and the older wooden framed vans, very often with lower roofs. Not certain of that, though.

[Mayner]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

They were also known as "hooded" vans by some railwaymen - jhbSenior and, for what it's worth, one old Kildare signalman who he knew, used to refer to them as such. I think the term came from an idea of a distinction between them - with internal "main line" dimensions and the older wooden framed vans, very often with lower roofs. Not certain of that, though.

JHB was my source for describing the 4W luggage vans as "Hooded Vans" and the Heating Vans as "Tin Vans" sticks in the mind easier than 2700-2765 series Luggage Brake Van.

I think Jonathan wrote that vans with Corridor Connections/Gangway were known by railwaymen as "Hooded Vans" to distinguish then from the older 4W and 6W Vans which did not have corridor connections.

The introduction dates give a clue to van livery and possible repaints.

The original 1955/6 Heating and Luggage vans were introduced in unpainted silver and the 1959-60 vans in Green.

The original Heating and Luggage vans would have been dirty/weathered enough (boiler exhaust, oil spillages), A Class loco exhaust to justify a repaint by the late 1950.

The Luggage Vans & PO vans were newer than the 1st batch of Heating and Luggage Van and not due for works attention re-paint until the Black and tan scheme was introduced.

There were only 10 PO vans so they were exceedingly rare and not a high priority for a re-paint appearing mainly on Night Mail Trains

CIE would have painted locos and coaches as they came due for re-paint after a work's visit, the recently converted AEC railcar intermediates seem to have been among the first coaches converted into the Black & Tan scheme.

There is a wonderful official possibly late 1961 early1962  CIE photo in Michael HC Bakers "Rails around Cork and Kerry Irish Railway Pictorial (Ian Allen" 2005)of a recently re-painted A6 and train made up of 2AEC railcar intermediates, the State Coach 351 and possibly a Buffet Car sandwitched between two Luggage Brake Vans all in the new black and tan scheme.  

Its possible that the train was staged as a publicity photo with the railcar intermediates out of gear posing as coaches or even Dev or possibly De-Gaulle on the way home from a visit to Sneem or Killarney

Edited December 13, 2021 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

JHB was my source for describing the 4W luggage vans as "Hooded Vans" and the Heating Vans as "Tin Vans" sticks in the mind easier than 2700-2765 series Luggage Brake Van.

I think Jonathan wrote that vans with Corridor Connections/Gangway were known by railwaymen as "Hooded Vans" to distinguish then from the older 4W and 6W Vans which did not have corridor connections.

The introduction dates give a clue to van livery and possible repaints.

The original 1955/6 Heating and Luggage vans were introduced in unpainted silver and the 1959-60 vans in Green.

"......

Exactly!

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

There is a wonderful official possibly late 1961 early1962  CIE photo in Michael HC Bakers "Rails around Cork and Kerry Irish Railway Pictorial (Ian Allen" 2005)of a recently re-painted A6 and train made up of 2AEC railcar intermediates, the State Coach 351 and possibly a Buffet Car sandwitched between two Luggage Brake Vans all in the new black and tan scheme.  

Its possible that the train was staged as a publicity photo with the railcar intermediates out of gear posing as coaches or even Dev or possibly De-Gaulle on the way home from a visit to Sneem or Killarney

Yes, I think it ŵas summer '62, and it was indeed a publicity shot, in which, it will noted that "A6" is displayed in an experimental font which was nor perpetrated, and the white line is also not what became standard.

First applications of Black and Tan in traffic did indeed tend to be more AEC railcard than anything else as they were the ICRs of the day, on most lines taking the most important passenger services. While a handful of vehicles were painted in the new livery in late 1962 to see what they looked like, it would be another year before they were commonplace. Thus, 1963 may be taken as the year when black'n'tan actually became the actual livery in practice. Any layout based in 1963-6 will still have many green coaches as well, though.

[josefstadt]

I'll bow to JHB's (or 'Senior' s) knowledge on the subject of 'hooded vans'. In my 37 years on the railway I never heard the term, though it may have fallen out of use by the time I started. 

[airfixfan]

See Mr HC Baker has a new book.out on 60 Years of Irish Railways by Key Publishing. The publicity blurb speaks about how the Irish GMs could be found since the 1960s working across the 32 Countirs of Ireland. Look forward to seeing the Fermanagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal photos!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

See Mr HC Baker has a new book.out on 60 Years of Irish Railways by Key Publishing. The publicity blurb speaks about how the Irish GMs could be found since the 1960s working across the 32 Countirs of Ireland. Look forward to seeing the Fermanagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal photos!

I believe the cover photo shows double-headed ones in UTA green pulling an Asahi into Carndonagh in 1949?

[Lambeg man]

41 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I believe the cover photo shows double-headed ones in UTA green pulling an Asahi into Carndonagh in 1949?

And I would presume the picture will have been taken with a telephoto lens showing Derry/Londonderry Guild Hall immediately behind the station building!!!!!

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, airfixfan said:

See Mr HC Baker has a new book.out on 60 Years of Irish Railways by Key Publishing. The publicity blurb speaks about how the Irish GMs could be found since the 1960s working across the 32 Countirs of Ireland. Look forward to seeing the Fermanagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal photos!

A quick google search will show the A class got to every county in Ireland and more 

[jhb171achill]

15 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

A quick google search will show the A class got to every county in Ireland and more 

Those ones are narrow-gauge.......

[airfixfan]

5 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

And I would presume the picture will have been taken with a telephoto lens showing Derry/Londonderry Guild Hall immediately behind the station building!!!!!

Sorry Steve thought you meant the photo of it crossing over the Craigavon Bridge en route from Burtonport to Portrush on the sleeper!

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Those ones are narrow-gauge.......

At least 1 A Class made it is far as St Johnston in the early 1960s but with a Crossley engine!

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

 

At least 1 A Class made it is far as St Johnston in the early 1960s but with a Crossley engine!

I believe one got to Derry at least once - a 141 certainly did.

[murphaph]

Is that book only going to be available from Key Publishing? I don't find an ISBN to search on Amazon.

[airfixfan]

Knew a 141 got as far as Strabane on a special. That is why I excluded Tyrone from my list of GM free Irish Counties. Did not know that a 141 made it to Foyle Road!

Just now, murphaph said:

Is that book only going to be available from Key Publishing? I don't find an ISBN to search on Amazon.

Do not know but is on Key Publishing website now

[airfixfan]

My copy of Irish Railways the last 60 years ordered and expected on Saturday from Key Publishing website

[Tractionman]

4 hours ago, murphaph said:

Is that book only going to be available from Key Publishing? I don't find an ISBN to search on Amazon.

 

I see it's here, sounds interesting

https://shop.keypublishing.com/product/View/productCode/KB0124/Irish Railways: The Last Sixty Years

All the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[murphaph]

Cheers, yeah it does look interesting but I've little interest in the likely customs hassle if it has to ship from GB. I'd much rather order from Amazon.de but they don't provide an ISBN which makes me wonder if it will only be sold direct from Key Publishing. I'll give it another couple of weeks to see does it show up anywhere else.

[h gricer]

16 hours ago, airfixfan said:

See Mr HC Baker has a new book.out on 60 Years of Irish Railways by Key Publishing. The publicity blurb speaks about how the Irish GMs could be found since the 1960s working across the 32 Countirs of Ireland. Look forward to seeing the Fermanagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal photos!

They certainly worked to Kingscourt on the gypsum, Kingscourt is in County Cavan.

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, h gricer said:

They certainly worked to Kingscourt on the gypsum, Kingscourt is in County Cavan.

“A” class locos managed to get to elsewhere in Co Cavan too. On one occasion anyway, a GAA special from Monaghan town travelled to Dublin via Cavan and Inny Junction.

[h gricer]

19 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

“A” class locos managed to get to elsewhere in Co Cavan too. On one occasion anyway, a GAA special from Monaghan town travelled to Dublin via Cavan and Inny Junction.

I was referring to ''Irish'' GMs 121s 141s 181s as in airfixfan's quote, they would have worked to Kingscourt, the Metrovicks (Crossleys) of course did work to Cavan but they wouldn't have been classed as ''GMs'' at that stage.

Edited December 16, 2021 by h gricer

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, h gricer said:

I was referring to ''Irish'' GMs 121s 141s 181s as in airfixfan's quote, they would have worked to Kingscourt, the Metrovicks (Crossleys) of course did work to Cavan but they wouldn't have been classed as ''GMs'' at that stage.

Ah, ok, fair comment.

Edited December 16, 2021 by jhb171achill

[airfixfan]

6 hours ago, h gricer said:

I was referring to ''Irish'' GMs 121s 141s 181s as in airfixfan's quote, they would have worked to Kingscourt, the Metrovicks (Crossleys) of course did work to Cavan but they wouldn't have been classed as ''GMs'' at that stage.

Even though I have been to Kingscourt twice by rail but never behind a GM forgot it was in Co Cavan

 We can look forward to a new version of his unique photo style using bad captions with dodgy camera work as seen in some of his books of the 1970s? But he was photographing Irish railways since the 1960s! So who knows

[h gricer]

4 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Even though I have been to Kingscourt twice by rail but never behind a GM forgot it was in Co Cavan

 We can look forward to a new version of his unique photo style using bad captions with dodgy camera work as seen in some of his books of the 1970s? But he was photographing Irish railways since the 1960s! So who knows

It's one of them anomalies on the railway, Kingscourt just over the County Cavan border and actually in Co Cavan, so the last locomotive to worked there was GM 141class 175 Co Cavan, veteran rail enthusiast Norman Foster actually travel on the train (weedsprayer) so he obviously appreciated the significance of the occasion 

 

[murphaph]

On 15/12/2021 at 10:59 PM, murphaph said:

Cheers, yeah it does look interesting but I've little interest in the likely customs hassle if it has to ship from GB. I'd much rather order from Amazon.de but they don't provide an ISBN which makes me wonder if it will only be sold direct from Key Publishing. I'll give it another couple of weeks to see does it show up anywhere else.

I ended up ordering it direct from them as I couldn't find it elsewhere. Arrived without customs looking at it. If you are ordering it from them there's a magazine available called Traction Transition that covers GM diesels in the UK and Ireland. Worth the fiver if you are paying the post anyway imo.

[Patrick Davey]

Here's an A Class in Co. Monaghan - Inniskeen to be precise.  Showing how filthy the silver livery became - I can just about make out the 'A' but can't make out the number......anyone?

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304549

[Broithe]

8 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

Here's an A Class in Co. Monaghan - Inniskeen to be precise.  Showing how filthy the silver livery became - I can just about make out the 'A' but can't make out the number......anyone?

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304549

43?

[Mayner]

21 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

Here's an A Class in Co. Monaghan - Inniskeen to be precise.  Showing how filthy the silver livery became - I can just about make out the 'A' but can't make out the number......anyone?

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304549

Nice contrast with the clean steam loco https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304611 working the Dundalk-Cavan-Monaghan goods during the same era.

An A Class was rostered to work the Dundalk-Carrickmacross goods between main line duties.

Dundalk-Cavan-Monaghan goods appears to have been rostered to steam to avoid tying up a diesel for most of the day and night, the goods was timetabled to depart Dundalk at 04:00 officially returning at 10:50pm.

Although one loco was used there must have been a crew change at Cavan or Clones to avoid the driver, fireman and guard going over their time on the road, possibly travelling on "the cushions" on the Cavan Mail Railcar or CIE Bus service.