Freight workings during the IR livery era 87-94

[Sean]

hey guys just planning a baseboard and when trying to decide what rolling stock to run i want to establish some sort of an era and model industries related to the stock im running.

have a 121 with IR points livery, a supertrain with IR points A class on the way and also a 201 in early IE livery.

This sets my era to the late 80's or early to mid 90's just as the 201 is being introduced.( i might make the time period a little ambiguous to allow running of both logos,were they ever in service together?)

What freight workings were operational during this period? i have some 42 flats on the way and some containers, and some oil tanker kits to finish off. not really sure what else would have been running around these periods except for sugar beet. were the corrugated open wagons still in use at this point or was it exclusively moved to the tall beet wagons?

 

were mixed rakes a thing anymore by this point or had it all gone to rakes of the same wagon?

 

thanks in advance for any help.

 

Sean

[mmie353]

The mail train ran I think until the 90s with a 121 pulling it from memory on the Cork/Dublin line as I think it would have been at Charleville station at approx 4:30pm. Ammonia's I am pretty sure also ran, Cements, Tara's, Ballast. I am sure someone else will mention something or correct me on what I have thought of

[Mayner]

CIE went over to fixed formation Liner Train operation in the late 1970s, with scheduled Liner Trains (mainly bogie wagons) mainly transporting container,  keg traffic, tar and (non-trainload) oil traffic on the Radial Routes out of Dublin and between Limerick and Waterford, Bulk commodities such as Anhydrous Ammonia, Bagged & Bulk Cement, Fertiliser, ESSO Oil and mineral traffic were again transported in fixed formation trains in special purpose wagons. The use of corrugated wagons  ended in the early 1980s with the introduction of the Beet Doubles for Wellingtonbridge-Thurles traffic, beet traffic to the Tuam, Mallow and Carlow factories having ceased.

Oil was mainly transported in 4w tanks wagons, tar was mainly transported in ISO Containers on 4w flat wagons and some fuel oil was also transported in 4w container wagon.

Most of the smaller yards and private sidings had gone by the mid-1970s with CIE no shunt railway principal, the remaining yards and private sidings were set up to handle fixed formation 15 Bogie/20 4W wagon trains, a number of sidings re-opened to handle bulk traffic during the 1990s including RH Hall Waterford to handle grain traffic (Open ISO containers), Sligo Quay Bitumen and a new siding at Portlaoise to handle grain traffic.

Irish Rail eased the CIE fixed formation Liner/single commodity trainload policy during the 1990s, Cross-Border and Dundalk-Dublin Liners regularly conveyed Bulk Cement and Fertiliser traffic in addition to containers, Dublin-Sligo Liners regularly conveyed bagged cement and Molasses (in tank wagons) traffic in addition to normal liner traffic, sometimes detaching and attaching cuts of bagged cement or molasses traffic at intermediate stations.

001s covered the majority of freight duties, with 121,141,181 increasingly filling in as 001s were withdrawn, O71s covered the majority of main line passenger diagrams until displaced by 201s, 001s covered some passenger duties into the early 1990s including a regular Dublin-Waterford diagram, the Ballybrophy-Nenagh Branch and regularly appeared on Connolly-Rosslare and Enterprise duties.

IE had an acute locomotive crisis in the early 1990s, although the 121 Class usually worked in multiple on main line duties I once saw a single 121s haul a North bound Liner out of Cork followed shortly afterwards by another single 121 on a North bound Fertiliser the Fertiliser was recessed at Rathpeacon (marshalling Yard between Cork and Mallow) and the Liner at Limerick Junction to allow the evening Cork-Dublin passenger to pass.

[murphaph]

IMO the trains of the 90's are as interesting as the loose coupled stuff which ended in the mid 70s.

There were all sorts of combinations of things in those 90's trains. If you watch enough YouTube clips you'll see stuff you wouldn't have expected. Guinness and cement, random containers, cement and fuel oil etc.

[seagoebox]

Roscrea Liner at Nenagh, 18th June 1991

In reply to mmie053, pic of up Cork day mail at Limerick Junction,  18th June 1991

[Niles]

On the 201s being introduced, I understand when 201 was being tested she was given a combination of various wagons to form a long load test up the climb out of Cork. I'm sure it's recorded in one of the ITG or IRRS journals, that could be something different to model... 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Niles

[Sean]

guys this info is all super invaluable and answers most of my questions in one go

 

@seagoebox - those pics capture the essence of what i was hoping to could do just perfectly. I had struggled particularly to find images of containers being unloaded/loaded.... looks like i even have enough space to run a prototypical train....

what else was put onto 42 foot flats, were the pallets of fertiliser on those, or pulled in tow in the fert wagons?

and finally what is actually meant by the term liner to a an uneducated lay person such as myself? if anybody can point me towards any particularly interesting videos of mixed liner trains that would be great. have seen a couple of interesting ones so far.

 

for passenger action i think im sorted: 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

22 hours ago, Sean said:

hey guys just planning a baseboard and when trying to decide what rolling stock to run i want to establish some sort of an era and model industries related to the stock im running.

have a 121 with IR points livery, a supertrain with IR points A class on the way and also a 201 in early IE livery.

This sets my era to the late 80's or early to mid 90's just as the 201 is being introduced.( i might make the time period a little ambiguous to allow running of both logos,were they ever in service together?)

What freight workings were operational during this period? i have some 42 flats on the way and some containers, and some oil tanker kits to finish off. not really sure what else would have been running around these periods except for sugar beet. were the corrugated open wagons still in use at this point or was it exclusively moved to the tall beet wagons?

 

were mixed rakes a thing anymore by this point or had it all gone to rakes of the same wagon?

 

thanks in advance for any help.

 

Sean

Mixed rakes, yes, but only two or three varieties; typical at the time was bubbles, fert and Guinness.

[Sean]

10 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Mixed rakes, yes, but only two or three varieties; typical at the time was bubbles, fert and Guinness.

would that be fert on flats on pallets or ferts loaded into the actual fert wagons?

 

im getting some cool ideas now, gonna update my layout thread later tonight with some new designs as they fit these operating parameters well.

[Mayner]

34 minutes ago, Sean said:

guys this info is all super invaluable and answers most of my questions in one go

 

@seagoebox - those pics capture the essence of what i was hoping to could do just perfectly. I had struggled particularly to find images of containers being unloaded/loaded.... looks like i even have enough space to run a prototypical train....

what else was put onto 42 foot flats, were the pallets of fertiliser on those, or pulled in tow in the fert wagons?

and finally what is actually meant by the term liner to a an uneducated lay person such as myself? if anybody can point me towards any particularly interesting videos of mixed liner trains that would be great. have seen a couple of interesting ones so far.

 

for passenger action i think im sorted: 

The 42' flats were used to transport ISO containers & Keg container. 

Fertiliser was transported in Fertiliser wagons usually in train load lots (10-15) wagons direct from a factory or port to depots around the country, sometimes Fertliiser Wagons were marshalled in Liner Trains.

A Liner Train was CIE/IE terminology for scheduled usually overnight freight trains made up of modern fully braked Bogie and 4 Wheel wagons that mainly carried container and keg traffic on the radial routes from Dublin to Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Limerick, Galway, Westport-Ballina, Sligo, Belfast, Derry and between Limerick and Waterford.   Liner trains usually ran point to point in fixed formations of 15 bogie wagons or 20+ 4 wheel wagons usually with no shunting to add or detach wagons en-route. The Forklift loading/unloading containers on the Main Line at Nenagh is a good example of this principal.  Roscrea and Ennis were served by daytime trip working or shunt from Limerick which were also called Liner Trains, the Roscrea and Ennis trains tended to be shorter than the Dublin-Limerick Liner Trains.

Container and bagged cement traffic was sometimes unloaded on the running lines at smaller depots like Nenagh, Mullingar, Roscommon and Boyle. Fertiliser trains were usually unloaded on a siding or loop clear of the running lines Nenagh, Mullingar and Roscommon retained sidings for unloading fertiliser trains which were also useful if it was necessary to shunt a Liner or Bagged Cement train clear of the running line or to unload wagons.

Although originally frowned on it became common the drop off Bagged Cement wagons for unloading at intermediate stations such as Nenagh while the train continued to its destination and pick up the empty wagons on the trains return.

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, Sean said:

would that be fert on flats on pallets or ferts loaded into the actual fert wagons?

im getting some cool ideas now, gonna update my layout thread later tonight with some new designs as they fit these operating parameters well.

Fertliser wagons, as in IRM bogies of recent times, 4-wheel cement "bubbles"* and Guinness "cages" on, initially 4-wheel and later bogie flats.

* Never saw bogie cements on mixed goods trains.

 

[iarnrod]

There are a couple of photo type books that cover the IR era, and it would be very worthwhile having these as a source of reference for that period.

Irish Traction by Colm O'Callaghan.

Iarnrod Eireann 25 years of Progress.

From CIE to IR.

Rails Through Tipperary.

Irish Railway Rambler.

There are also the IRRS journals, some of which have photo features on freight from that era. 

Flickr is another good source of reference, with literally thousands of photos from the IR era. 

There are also numerous clips on YouTube which show workings from back then.

No shortage of reference material for the IR era, and part of the fun of planning a layout is researching trains from the period that you intend to model. Luckily, the IR era is very well served with reference material, both printed and online.

[murphaph]

Check out our own Swissernie (Ernie Brack) and his Flickr account. He has several videos of shunting going on at Limerick Junction. You might even see laden Gypsum hoppers bound for Castlemungret on the end of a container or cement bubble liner and other things. The gypsum wagons would be uncoupled from the (say) Cork bound liner to be run to Castlemungret, possibly on the rear of an empty Waterford to Castlemungret cement bubble train.

IMO YouTube and Flickr videos are best for catching the more exotic freight stuff. Photographers rarely focused on stuff behind the in loco. The loco tended to be the money shot and digital photography was still new. Film cost money so I guess taking random photos of liner train configurations was not common for this reason. Often grainy Video 8 recordings are the best reference material. Surprisingly the "cab ride" videos are among the best as oncoming passing trains can be paused to see what the whole train is composed of.

[Mayner]

The Gypsum Wagons originally operated as a direct 3 time weekly  Kingscourt-Castlemugnet train.

The Limerick Gypsums were usually appeared to be attached to the rear of 201 Class hauled Platin-Cork Bulk Cement trains between Platin and Limerick Junction from the Mid-Late 1990s and worked to Limerick by a trip working.

I don't know the load limits but the 201s and 071s would have allowed longer heavier trains to be run than 001s or pairs of Small GMs (121,141,181).

[jhb171achill]

I forgot to also mention beet…..

1.  Loose coupled wagons of both corrugated and timber with brake van.

2.  Same, but the wooden wagons have gone (circa 1972).

3.  “Double deck” corrugated wagons (now painted brown) up to the end (2006).

Edited January 25, 2022 by jhb171achill

[flange lubricator]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

3.  Corrugated wagons without brake van (1980s / 90s)

 

Don’t think the corrugated wagons or bullied opens ran without brake vans 

[Sean]

how about permenant way duties during this period?

 

would this kind of configuration of pwd have been seen during my era?

it would be possible to make up some barytes quite easily from the spoil boxes.....

mixed liner, would love to get my hands on a few guinness kegs to use as a load for this.

i reckon pallet cement and beets will be the traffic to serve the layout in question!

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Sean

[jhb171achill]

On 23/1/2022 at 4:59 PM, flange lubricator said:

Don’t think the corrugated wagons or bullied opens ran without brake vans 

By “corrugated” I meant the Bullied ones….. yes, maybe with vans?

[flange lubricator]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

By “corrugated” I meant the Bullied ones….. yes, maybe with vans?

Always with brake vans the latter double beet wagons post 1985 were mounted on Lancashire flats which were vacuum brake and did not require a brake van but the earlier single bullied corrugated wagon were loose coupled and always required a brake van . 

Edited January 24, 2022 by flange lubricator

[seagoebox]

57 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Always with brake vans the latter double beet wagons post 1985 were mounted on Lancashire flats which were vacuum brake and did not require a brake van but the earlier single bullied corrugated wagon were loose coupled and always required a brake van . 

Beet wagons at Wellington Bridge 16.10 1990, and Limerick Works 18.6.1991

Edited January 24, 2022 by seagoebox

[flange lubricator]

17 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

Beet wagons at Wellington Bridge 16.10 1990, and Limerick Works 18.6.1991

A great example of thrift by the railway and re cycling repurposing of rolling stock 1950s bodies on 1960s underframes which lasted until the end of the beet in 2005 . 

Edited January 24, 2022 by flange lubricator

[Sean]

On 22/1/2022 at 1:42 PM, seagoebox said:

Roscrea Liner at Nenagh,

Love this photo, just the type of atmosphere im going to be going for.

 

[Robert Shrives]

I really look forward to a double beet wagon from IRM as sure to be popular as would retooled chassis for the early 4 wheel wagons to allow future owners to have 21mm options easily enough - thought prompted by the in works shot of the beet wagons and the one by the wall on "bricks" a lovely pic of tidy shop at Limerick I guess.

Robert 

[Westcorkrailway]

Http://www.adverts.ie/models/model-railway-Irish-beet-wagons/24977539
 

these might do in the meantime for the those looking for double bulleid beet wagons 

[Robert Shrives]

Provinical Wagons do a great model as well - I have 12 or so but I guess there are some who an rtr model is just that bit easier to finish.   The kit has as few parts as can be imagined - body, chassis , buffers and some bracing along with brake gear to add to taste ! 

I can just see the 20` skeletal chassis set for 21mm use but with 16mm gauge wheelsets would fit many uses - tanks, beets, older weedkiller train along with containers but sure the good gents in IRM towers will have seen the same.    

Robert   

[Sean]

are provincial still going the website doesnt instill much confidence

[Galteemore]

They are. The website is undergoing a rebuild. @leslie10646will doubtless know more ! 

[leslie10646]

1 hour ago, Sean said:

are provincial still going the website doesnt instill much confidence

Hi Sean

I assure you that Provincial Wagons is still dispensing wagon kits.

The website is a mess because I could not see the sense in paying a couple of hundred pounds a year for the level of business which I do.

So, I attempted to change to Wordpress - it proved rather un-user-friendly on the IONIS platform. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time than build websites.

Most of my customers are repeats (ask a few well-known names here) and know my e-mail address. I just quote you for what you need and that brings me as much business as I can handle, or "My Man" is prepared to produce! My stock is low at the moment, as sales have been very good in 2021.

Either PM me for a simple list, or tell me what you want. Or e-mail ........

lesliemcallister@aol.com

Apologies that my public face needs a lift!!!!

Leslie

(Provincial Wagons)

[Sean]

Great to hear it! will PM now.

[leslie10646]

On 26/1/2022 at 2:25 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Http://www.adverts.ie/models/model-railway-Irish-beet-wagons/24977539
 

these might do in the meantime for the those looking for double bulleid beet wagons 

Dare I suggest that this is a wee bit better - albeit dearer! 200 is service on various model railways ......

[leslie10646]

On 26/1/2022 at 2:55 PM, Robert Shrives said:

Provinical Wagons do a great model as well - I have 12 or so but I guess there are some who an rtr model is just that bit easier to finish.   The kit has as few parts as can be imagined - body, chassis , buffers and some bracing along with brake gear to add to taste ! 

I can just see the 20` skeletal chassis set for 21mm use but with 16mm gauge wheelsets would fit many uses - tanks, beets, older weedkiller train along with containers but sure the good gents in IRM towers will have seen the same.    

Robert   

I'm just sending another eight double beet kits to a customer in Co Cork - that means I have sold THREE HUNDRED of the flat which they sit on  - not bad for a kit?  That's 216 beets and 84 sold as pure 20ft flats for containers (which I also sell!).

Another little milestone - not quite the 350 plus Bulleid corrugated opens - see Meathdane's fine building of those on his workbench!

[Mayner]

7 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

I'm just sending another eight double beet kits to a customer in Co Cork - that means I have sold THREE HUNDRED of the flat which they sit on  - not bad for a kit?  That's 216 beets and 84 sold as pure 20ft flats for containers (which I also sell!).

 

Leslie

You made me reach for my copies of Locomotive & Rolling Stock of CIE and NIR.

It looks like like you have sold more 54 Double Beets and 177 less 20' Skeletal Flats than CIE actually built.

300 Flats is not bad by any standards for a resin casting.

I still have to get round to building my 'stash' of PW wagons, but haven't been able to find the time since I gave up my 'day job' several years ago.

[leslie10646]

Just to be clear, John, NOT all the same mould - that's been renewed from the original master several times.

 

[Mayner]

23 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Just to be clear, John, NOT all the same mould - that's been renewed from the original master several times.

 

I originally planned (2010)to produce the Tin Vans JMD using a cast resin body (from a 3D printed master) before going down the etched kit route. 

One of the main draw backs was high production costs due to the short mould life (<20 repeats per mould?) and labour intensive nature of the casting and clean up process.

12 years later I quickly found out that resin casting was not an option for producing the CIE 20T Goods Brake van.

The local (New Zealand) companies that once carried out resin casting have either gone out of business or shifted to resin printing.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Mayner