Hybrid running costs

[gph2000]

My diesel  - a Renault Kadjar car is delivering approximately 5 litres per 100 km which at todays prices rounds to 10km for every euro on fuel. Anyone know how how far a euro goes running in battery mode on something like a Ford Kuga, Hyundai Tuscon or similar?

[skinner75]

Don't know, but I was watching the 24hr race at the Nurburgring over the weekend, and the figures for a GT3 car are shocking:

1.75L per minute - 14L per lap. The winning car did 159 laps, using approx 2226L in total.  The mad thing is, each fueling, the team gets a docket with how much went in, and at the end of the race, all dockets are totted up, and then the team either pays the balance, or gets a refund (they pay a certain amount before the race).

Tyres work out around 70 grand for the full race! 

Racing - definitely not cheap!!

[amdaley]

1 hour ago, gph2000 said:

My diesel  - a Renault Kadjar car is delivering approximately 5 litres per 100 km which at todays prices rounds to 10km for every euro on fuel. Anyone know how how far a euro goes running in battery mode on something like a Ford Kuga, Hyundai Tuscon or similar?

I have a Kia Niro Hybrid & the best I have got so far is 3.8 litres per 100 km.

Before that I had a Kia Soul which did 5 lts per 100 km.

[gph2000]

If I really try,  then I can squeeze 4.7l/100km out of the Kadjar, but it requires very committed driving style  

 

[Broithe]

I have a 1.4 petrol Hyundai Getz. It returns either side of 50mpg, so ~5.5 litres per 100km, but I am a sedate driver. 

Consumption is noticeably more frugal in Ireland, compared to driving in England - around 4 to 5% better - due largely to the lack of congestion and 'traffic management'.

I got the manual Getz as it 'fitted me' so well - I used to drive an earlier automatic 1.3 for a friend and was horrified by the lack of economy that the mpg reading displayed in his - I spent considerable effort trying to get the figure up - then I discovered that the reading in the earlier cars was in US gallons - the later ones use 'real' gallons....

[Noel]

Consider a BEV lads, €9/wk on night rate electricity instead of €95/wk on liquid fuels.

PS: Might this thread not be better placed in 'Letting off Steam' sub-forum? @Garfield @Warbonnet

[skinner75]

On my BMW R1150GS motorbike, a typical spin from Athlone to Dublin and back, will take about 20 liters. This works out at 8L/100km or 35mpg in old money. 

Speed would be a steady 130kmh on the motorway

[Sean]

3 minutes ago, Noel said:

Consider a BEV lads, €9/wk on night rate electricity instead of €95/wk on liquid fuels.

PS: Might this thread not be better placed in 'Letting off Steam' sub-forum? @Garfield @Warbonnet

Stick a few solar panels up and watch that rate drop even further.

 

Best I've done In recent times was gorey to Ashbourne via the wicklow gap for five euros on my Honda CRF 250. That's a year or two ago mind you.

[WRENNEIRE]

Have a Hybrid Q5
Drive the shite out of it
Come home and plug it in
Granny Bracken pays the ESB
Happy days

[Noel]

3 hours ago, Sean said:

Stick a few solar panels up and watch that rate drop even further.

 

Best I've done In recent times was gorey to Ashbourne via the wicklow gap for five euros on my Honda CRF 250. That's a year or two ago mind you.

Hi Sean, yip, only €6 Dublin-Killarney and back thanks to night saver electricity rates. Most of summer its Solar PV only. Had been a sceptic but this BEV malarkey actually works surprisingly well.

[jhb171achill]

A "Woolwich" could do it on about eight tons of coal there and back, with a good crew and not too many cattle vans on the back.....

Just sayin'..........

[gph2000]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A "Woolwich" could do it on about eight tons of coal there and back, with a good crew and not too many cattle vans on the back.....

Just sayin'..........

Not sure Windsor or Bill Griffin could offer one of those at the moment. 

22 hours ago, Noel said:

Consider a BEV lads, €9/wk on night rate electricity instead of €95/wk on liquid fuels.

PS: Might this thread not be better placed in 'Letting off Steam' sub-forum? @Garfield @Warbonnet

The correct forum depends on where thread drift takes us. I am happy with the replies, none of the car sales men (they were all men) I spoke to last week have any idea. 

[Broithe]

14 minutes ago, gph2000 said:

none of the car sales men (they were all men) I spoke to last week have any idea. 

Mmm, I've never noticed this before, but my Getz is the only car I've ever bought from a 'proper place', (in 2008) and the salesperson was female.

It was a family business then and she was the owner's daughter, but it never struck me as unusual at the time, until your post just now - although, I can't recall ever seeing another and that place, under new ownership, is all-male on the sales side now, but two thirds female on the servicing administration.

[gph2000]

47 minutes ago, Broithe said:

Mmm, I've never noticed this before, but my Getz is the only car I've ever bought from a 'proper place', (in 2008) and the salesperson was female.

It was a family business then and she was the owner's daughter, but it never struck me as unusual at the time, until your post just now - although, I can't recall ever seeing another and that place, under new ownership, is all-male on the sales side now, but two thirds female on the servicing administration.

Back in about 05 the dealership where Hertz is now in Glenageary had a woman on the sales team. The only one I've met since I bought my first car in '92.

[Bumble_Bee]

Leccy cars are great but depend on the infrastructure. 

The best way forward in my view would be for all parking spaces to be electric, especially at places of work and shop carparks, places were cars are left for extended periods anyway. Charging at home is great too of course but it only works for houses with drive ways and one car. 

I don't really like the reliance on the petrol station model for electric car infrastructure, because yes maybe you want to stop at an applegreen anyway for a borger and a coffee but trying to plan a 2+hr charge into a trip sounds like a pain! 

I think more research should be put into hybrid stuff as its a better stopgap until electric infrastructure takes off. 

 

My dream hybrid would be one that is entirely electric powered (all wheel electric drive) but the battery was charged by a teenyweeny petrol motor that acted as a generator. So you could have the performance of a leccy car but without the 'range anxiety' because you could top up with petrol, also you wouldnt need the batteries to be as large so it could be made far lighter. It would be far more efficient than the current crop of hybrids which all work with electric assisted petrol power.

That said, my current motor is a 1.5 Mazda 2 because its fast enough to be fun for my inner chav, but also extremely efficient. Its hard to push it lower than 50mpg unless you are REALLY raking the hole off it. Much better mpg than equivilent hybrids and cheaper too. Even yaris's that are a few years old are quite expensive compared to nonhybrid models. PLUS its manual. The thing I will miss most about when electric takes over is the manual experience haha. Automatic electrics are amazing though its like driving a spaceship. Cant personally stand automatic petrol/diesels though

[skinner75]

I've not done my driving test for a car yet (and I'm 47!), but when I do, I'll do a test for automatic, as that's all there is going to be in the electric future. 

Also, when fully automatic driving cars come out, will you still have to do a driving test to use one?...

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, skinner75 said:

Also, when fully automatic driving cars come out, will you still have to do a driving test to use one?...

And would drink driving laws apply to the 'passenger', if he's not actually driving it?

 

 

[David Holman]

My latest car is a self charging hybrid and have found it a very different experience, but now more used to it am getting 50mpg from a 1.6 petrol engine. The electric motor means it is more economic around town and short runs than on the motorway - the opposite of what you'd expect. Did some research on self charging hybrids, but because they cost a lot more to buy are actually less economical in overall cost, even if you charge them at home every night. Mind you, if fuel keeps going up, who knows?

[Noel]

19 hours ago, Bumble_Bee said:

Leccy cars are great but depend on the infrastructure. 

95% of folks do 98% of their charging only at home on cheap night rate electricity while they sleep.

€9/wk on night saver electricity instead of €95/wk on diesel is attractive.

Many 2nd and 3rd gen BEVs can get anywhere on this small island on a single charge from home without stopping (except for human factors)  

19 hours ago, Bumble_Bee said:

My dream hybrid would be one that is entirely electric powered (all wheel electric drive) but the battery was charged by a teenyweeny petrol motor that acted as a generator. So you could have the performance of a leccy car but without the 'range anxiety' because you could top up with petrol, also you wouldnt need the batteries to be as large so it could be made far lighter.

Yes the BMW i3 REX (Range extender was exactly this). But owners when trading in their i3's had become so comfortable with range that they bought non-rex models next time around as they had discovered they'd not needed it. 

[skinner75]

My dad got one of the Kia Niro all electric cars, and is well happy with it. He was always into his motors, and would have always done his own servicing, but is well happy since making the switch. 

Range is around 530km, which should be more than enough for most people here in Ireland!

His view on hybrids is that they still have all the hassles of petrol/diesel engines - that still need regular servicing, compared to pure electric. Pure electric needing very little apart from the consumables - brakes, tyres. With the engine regen charging, even the brake pads will last much longer. I heard of a Tesla driver who was still on the same brake pads after 100,000 miles!

Also, when charging at charge point, be it at a petrol station or on street, getting the charge up to 80% will be a lot faster than 2 hours, but after 80%, the charging rate slows down

Edited June 2, 2022 by skinner75

[gph2000]

1 hour ago, skinner75 said:

Range is around 530km, which should be more than enough for most people here in Ireland!

That would require 30 to 40 litres of fuel. Any idea what the cost of electricity is to achieve that range?

[skinner75]

1 hour ago, gph2000 said:

That would require 30 to 40 litres of fuel. Any idea what the cost of electricity is to achieve that range?

A damn sight less than dino-juice going by the Kia page below!:

https://www.kia.com/ie/about-kia/experience-kia/technology/electrification/electric-car-charging-costs/

"Assuming the cost of electricity to be €0.17 per kWh, here's what it would cost to charge the batteries that are used in both the e-Niro and e-Soul, and also the cost per 100km driving for the e-Niro, fitted with these batteries, based on the WLTP average range figures.

The 64 kWh battery has an average range 455km, and the 39.2 kWh battery has an average range 289km

On the long range battery: 64kWh (64 X €0.17) = €10.88 to fully charge: €2.39 per 100km (€10.80 /455km *100km). For the mid range battery of: 39.2kWh (39.2 X €0.17) = €6.66 to fully charge: €2.30 per 100km (€6.66 / 289km *100km)"

[Broithe]

I've had my current car since 2010 and there has been only one day in that time that it has gone further than 250 miles / 400km between leaving home and returning back there. That sort of range would be quite adequate for me.

[Bumble_Bee]

6 hours ago, Noel said:

95% of folks do 98% of their charging only at home on cheap night rate electricity while they sleep.

€9/wk on night saver electricity instead of €95/wk on diesel is attractive.

Many 2nd and 3rd gen BEVs can get anywhere on this small island on a single charge from home without stopping (except for human factors)  

Yes the BMW i3 REX (Range extender was exactly this). But owners when trading in their i3's had become so comfortable with range that they bought non-rex models next time around as they had discovered they'd not needed it. 

Oh thats awesome I didn't know that the i3 did that! I'm still holding out hope for something more sporty haha. I absolutely love hothatches but there arent many options for those in hybrid or electric yet.

 

Also yes I know most folks charge at home but as I said it only works for folks who have driveway or garage etc. A lot of the cities still have wee townhouses etc with onstreet parking so another solution is required for them. 

[Mike 84C]

I just been shopping in my 07 2.0 Diesel Skoda Est. 66.9 mpg, what the car is worth would not buy me an electric bike. And the Skoda has done 163000 miles, so even if diesel reaches £10 per gallon I think I shall keep driving it till it will not pass an MOT or I need it for a Viking funeral!

  Keep the Hyundia Tuscon as the caravan tug. Did anyone pick up on the DVLA changing the driving licence to go up to 10tonnes?  I think that opens the door for long range electric motorhomes  and maybe the death of the towed caravan. 

[Noel]

9 hours ago, gph2000 said:

That would require 30 to 40 litres of fuel. Any idea what the cost of electricity is to achieve that range?

€7.36 on night rate electricity charging at home, or €25.60 if using ESB public charging network (ie DC/CCS) rather than home charging.

[Mike 84C]

Lots of variables in mpg figures, the drivers foot playing the biggest part and that is using any kind of energy.

That electric Kia  Niro range, roughly equates to 346 miles @ say 55mpg  = 6.3 galls derv,  using local Lincolnshire diesel prices would cost £ 51.28. 

Governments will be quite happy to let fossil prices keep rising because their tax take gets larger. But when that starts to go down because drivers buy EV's just  watch the price differential change. We will pay through the nose via increased electricity costs and road pricing plus probably high charges to recycle your worn out batteries. It will be a money spinner for somebody!

And here on big island there is no way of distributing the electricity needed let alone generating it. I see a u turn on targets to get rid of IC engines.

I'm not a politician so what would I know.  

[Noel]

Yip within 10 years I suspect road tax will switch to a milage based system initially self declared with intermediate taco inspections, NCT, when selling car, etc. The tech to implement this is easy and inexpensive. Govt will have no option but to replace the loss of duty on fossil fuels as BEV fleet size approaches the tipping point. Only time will tell. Right now BEV is enjoying a honeymoon period that cannot last forever. Milage based is fairer as widow who only does only 2500km per annum is not the same as a rep or commercial doing 40,000km a year.

[gph2000]

Heaven forbid our leaders planned early for that day...

[gph2000]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:45 AM, Mike 84C said:

Lots of variables in mpg figures, the drivers foot playing the biggest part and that is using any kind of energy.

That electric Kia  Niro range, roughly equates to 346 miles @ say 55mpg  = 6.3 galls derv,  using local Lincolnshire diesel prices would cost £ 51.28. 

Governments will be quite happy to let fossil prices keep rising because their tax take gets larger. But when that starts to go down because drivers buy EV's just  watch the price differential change. We will pay through the nose via increased electricity costs and road pricing plus probably high charges to recycle your worn out batteries. It will be a money spinner for somebody!

And here on big island there is no way of distributing the electricity needed let alone generating it. I see a u turn on targets to get rid of IC engines.

I'm not a politician so what would I know.  

There have to be other ways to generate this power too. Already I see one manufacturer using the petrol/diesel to power an onboard generator only, and all the drive power is from the electric motor. There must also be a means to capture some solar power via a roof panel, and could those fine wires that deliver your heated window take power in the opposite direction from the window to a battery? Equally, on a two wheel drive car can the rotating action of the other wheelset power some form of generator to reclaim some of the spent power?

[WRENNEIRE]

Some years back 2004 I think, when Maggie Thatcher crossed the seas to visit us in our capacity as Eu President, Audi supplied a fleet of executive cars, I cant remember the model but something similar to the A7
They had sunroofs which were also solar panels and they would run the A/C while the car was parked insuring it was either cool or warm when the guests returned
Surely something similar could be done for charging PHEV or BEV's?

[skinner75]

1 hour ago, gph2000 said:

There have to be other ways to generate this power too. Already I see one manufacturer using the petrol/diesel to power an onboard generator only, and all the drive power is from the electric motor. There must also be a means to capture some solar power via a roof panel, and could those fine wires that deliver your heated window take power in the opposite direction from the window to a battery? Equally, on a two wheel drive car can the rotating action of the other wheelset power some form of generator to reclaim some of the spent power?

That kinda defeats the purpose no? Even the hybrids - you still have all the problems associated with petrol/diesel engines - servicing filters, oils etc, that you don't have with pure electric.

Using the other rotating wheels to generate power would act as a brake - this is how the regen braking works - the motor becomes a generator, which resists the rotating wheel motion to generate a charge to send back into the battery.

Solar panel in the roof is ok during the day, but no use at night. 

How many people actually do more mileage per day than the capacity of most BEVs range? Very few I would imagine

[Noel]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Some years back 2004 I think, when Maggie Thatcher crossed the seas to visit us in our capacity as Eu President, Audi supplied a fleet of executive cars, I cant remember the model but something similar to the A7
They had sunroofs which were also solar panels and they would run the A/C while the car was parked insuring it was either cool or warm when the guests returned
Surely something similar could be done for charging PHEV or BEV's?

Hyundai Ioniq 5 have solar roof as an option.

[Noel]

3 hours ago, gph2000 said:

There have to be other ways to generate this power too. Already I see one manufacturer using the petrol/diesel to power an onboard generator only, and all the drive power is from the electric motor. There must also be a means to capture some solar power via a roof panel, and could those fine wires that deliver your heated window take power in the opposite direction from the window to a battery? Equally, on a two wheel drive car can the rotating action of the other wheelset power some form of generator to reclaim some of the spent power?

Other ways: Wind, pumped storage, hydro, solar, the Celtic Interconnector importing 700MW from french Nuclear grid. Ireland varies between 40% and 60% wind for the grid these days, with a target of between 70-80% by 2030. Alas data centres are a fly in the ointment with possible future legislation to force them to generate or buy their own CO2 free juice. Data centres are not big employers anyway, but earn significant revenue. From 2030 sales of new fossil cars including hybrids are being banned in Ireland with 2040 the target date for use of old ICE stock. Only time will tell how all this pans out. Alt Energy is the new business of opportunity. And we led the way with DCC   In time Ireland will be forced by EU to electrify the railways and by the various international accords we have already signed up to (eg Paris). Wonder if we'll end up with a 3rd rail, or overhead gantry on the main intercity lines. 

Irish National Grid on a normal wind day.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Noel
Lexdysia again

[skinner75]

Serious potential for wave generated power off the west coast, though I'm sure the Nimbys will stick their oar in...