Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[Niles]

2 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Can't see anything on the Website that suggest the numbers? Weird, I don't want to end up with Duplicates.

Should be there at the end of each description, presuming '453' etc is the running number anyway.

[leslie10646]

55 minutes ago, Niles said:

Well I began today with a healthy debit card and now it's... less healthy.

As for rescuing the real thing, DCDR have a six wheeler under restoration https://www.downrail.co.uk/rolling-stock/gswr-69/ and more on site.

(seriously if anyone would like to help in some shape with these I can point you to the right people...)

 

 

Niles, they only take the dough when they are ready to send and have checked with you that you still want them - READ THE SMALL PRINT!

Do you really think I'd give them £260 for something I won't see until I'm 78, if I'm spared?

Now you're all calculating what I opted for .......

Well there should be an addition to my Christmas Mail Train in 2023 (those of you with time on your hands can work it out!).

Now, where can I find a 2024 diary to remind me I need the money in my account!

1 hour ago, Ironroad said:

Great news and nice to see that they listened to those of us that lobbied them to do this quite some time ago. Goes to prove, if you don't ask it won't happen.

As Ironroad said, well done for those who asked Hattons for them. "Ask and ye shall receive" - although I don't think it was quite what The Good Man meant!

Edited November 14, 2022 by leslie10646

[Niles]

27 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Niles, they only take the dough when they are ready to send and have checked with you that you still want them - READ THE SMALL PRINT!

Do you really think I'd give them £260 for something I won't see until I'm 78, if I'm spared?

Now you're all calculating what I opted for .......

Well there should be an addition to my Christmas Mail Train in 2023 (those of you with time on your hands can work it out!).

Now, where can I find a 2024 diary to remind me I need the money in my account!

As Ironroad said, well done for those who asked Hattons for them. "Ask and ye shall receive" - although I don't think it was quite what The Good Man meant!

True, but it's still got a strong bout of anxiety from it. 

[Ironroad]

3 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Well thats interesting. Not quite the WCIR triple packs I'm hoping for, but these are tempting

Does anyone know if the carriages in the 4-pack are numbered differently to the carriages sold individually?

I'm open to correction but I don't think so. For example it seems to me that in the case of the dark green livery the four pack is comprised of - 3rd no. 419, 3rd no. 453, 1st/3rd/lav 526 but it is not clear to me which of the brake 3rds no. 102 or no. 90 completes the set.  So if you want a simple rake of pure 6 wheelers , you could order the four pack and add 1st 3rd no 452, in which case a second brake 3rd would not be necessary not would full brake no 18.  However, if you are mixing six wheelers with bogie stock then the full brake and the second brake 3rd  may be desirable. An email to Hattons may be needed to clarify which of the brake 3rds is included in the four pack.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, MOGUL said:

Without stirring the pot..

IRM moved some track panels for Maam when they released the As, supported Tailte tours on their inaugural run and dontated funds from the sale of ballasts to the DCDR to preserve the real thing..

Wonder if hattons could be convinced to contribute towards rescuing a 6 wheeler, there is a suitable candidate just down the road from Maam after all!

 

Even better, Downpatrick has a whole train of them awaiting restoration, including one GSWR one! (And 1 x GNR, 2 x MGWR and 2 x BCDR!)

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

Niles, they only take the dough when they are ready to send and have checked with you that you still want them - READ THE SMALL PRINT!

I had my wallet in hand ready to spent €260 anyways! I hope these will arrive on time as I think the last batch are delayed a good bit 

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, Niles said:

Should be there at the end of each description, presuming '453' etc is the running number anyway.

Yes, agree - I presume thats the running number too. However, the four pack doesn't have any running numbers that I can see so I was wondering which carriages in that (if any) are duplicates

48 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

I'm open to correction but I don't think so. For example it seems to me that in the case of the dark green livery the four pack is comprised of - 3rd no. 419, 3rd no. 453, 1st/3rd/lav 526 but it is not clear to me which of the brake 3rds no. 102 or no. 90 completes the set.  So if you want a simple rake of pure 6 wheelers , you could order the four pack and add 1st 3rd no 452, in which case a second brake 3rd would not be necessary not would full brake no 18.  However, if you are mixing six wheelers with bogie stock then the full brake and the second brake 3rd  may be desirable. An email to Hattons may be needed to clarify which of the brake 3rds is included in the four pack.

This makes sense - think I'll email Hattons though and see what they say.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Flying Snail

[connollystn]

Did the silver As ever haul six wheels coaches?

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, connollystn said:

Did the silver As ever haul six wheels coaches?

Certainly did, mostly for excursion work I think. 

[connollystn]

2 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Certainly did, mostly for excursion work I think. 

Great to hear. They'll be ideal for my currently unemployed A30 and A55. Anyone who didn't buy one of the silver As will be kicking themselves now that there's going to be something suitable for them to haul.

[Westcorkrailway]

7 minutes ago, connollystn said:

Great to hear. They'll be ideal for my currently unemployed A30 and A55. Anyone who didn't buy one of the silver As will be kicking themselves now that there's going to be something suitable for them to haul.

Something tells me that the lovely CIE green livery is going to grow on people…..and the Silver A’s along with A42, A46 ect. Will start to apericiate in value. not to mention, CIE green coaches have to be on others agenda at this stage. 
 

some showcase of the prototype in use
 

 

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, connollystn said:

Did the silver As ever haul six wheels coaches?

Yes, on excursions. Best examples would have been Cork-Youghal summer excursions. Green ones would also have hauled them in this way.

[Niles]

I was just going for some early green ones but I may have fell on the keyboard and accidently ordered the B&T one as well.

I quite like those photos of it against a rake of bogies on the likes of the Grand Steam tour, I'm a sucker for 'wrong' liveries in a rake.

[jhb171achill]

57 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Yes, agree - I presume thats the running number too. However, the four pack doesn't have any running numbers that I can see so I was wondering which carriages in that (if any) are duplicates

This makes sense - think I'll email Hattons though and see what they say.

The idea is that if someone buys a set, it can be expanded with other "single" ones - each type of coach has several number options for that purpose.

2 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Can't see anything on the Website that suggest the numbers? Weird, I don't want to end up with Duplicates.

Several number options with each; probably one number for the one in the set, an a separat5e number for other "single" ones of the same type.

[Westcorkrailway]

20 minutes ago, Niles said:

I was just going for some early green ones but I may have fell on the keyboard and accidently ordered the B&T one as well.

I quite like those photos of it against a rake of bogies on the likes of the Grand Steam tour, I'm a sucker for 'wrong' liveries in a rake.

They’ll look good with the infamous Tailte tours Bachmann/Murphy’s  K class.

 

 The Black and Tan 6 wheeler can be seen below along with plenty of other strange scenes in a “transitional” era with a 141 hauling an entirely CIE green rake of coaches. 
 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

WHAT TO RUN WITH HATTONS CIE COACHES

Since the numbers are of vehicles whih did run in the 50s and in most cases early 60s, and given that they cover the pre- and post-1955 shades of green, what to operate with them.

Other carriages:

On main lines, wooden bogie stock, especially of GSWR origin, laminates, Bredins and Park Royals, the latter especially with the light green ones; not Cravens, as they were just being introduced after the last ones were withdrawn, although if you take the lone black'n'tan full brake, you can authentically operate a train with any of the above coaches PLUS Cravens. The last two black'n'tan full 6 wheel vans were still at work in 1968, possibly both n Galway mail trains. One was officially still on the books until 1970, but photo evidence that year shows it loking as if it hasn't been used for a while.

On branch lines, other vehicles the same, possibly a full brake or brake third with a bogie vehicle, or a set of 3 or 4 of them.

On excursions, any stock at all - but possibly (especially in Cork area), summer excursions of up to 15 or more of them.

Locomotives:

ANY steam loco, and diesels of "A", B101, or "C" class in either the silver or green livery. Also, a B121 perhaps in the year of 1962 only, in its original grey and yellow.

If operating in a mixed train, the sort of wagons are anything pre-fitted era except the "palvans"; they were introduced the year after the six-wheelers were withdrawn. See Provincial Wagons, JM design wagons, and some SSM kits. All wagons of all types grey; the brown didn't appear till 1970.

 

Typical carriage formations on a branch -

All trains had first and third (until mid 50s, then 1st & 2nd). So - a train of six-wheelers would typically be:

1.  Composite 1st / 2nd, full 2nd and either full brake or brake 2nd.

2.  Full brake or brake third with a bogie composite; by the 1950s almost without exception of GSWR wooden design, though sometimes a Bredin or 1951-3 CIE compo.

3.  Full brake or brake 3rd with six-wheel composite and something like a Park Royal.

On main lines -

Six wheelers, especially full brakes, would take up the rear of main line trains of more modern bogie stock. Two were actually fitted with a gangway corridor at one end - an exceptionally rare thing on Irish six-wheelers. In steam days more so, but when diesels came in, the necessity to have a tin van for heating came in too, thus displacing many old six-wheel brakes - however, they'd still be used for parcels.

When DSER-section or Cork commuter trains were busy, just about any varieties of surviving six-wheelers would be intermingled with old wooden non-corridor bogies, mostly of GSWR design, and six wheelers of the very different MGWR design.

 

Six wheelers in the black'n'tan era 1963-70

While ALL passenger-carrying ones disappeared in 1963, thus just missing the new livery, some six full vans survived. Two were withdrawn shortly afterwards, still light green - but would have run with black and tan bogie stock. Another one I suspect also remained light green. The other three (69, now at Downpatrick; 79 and another) definitely were repainted black'n'tan. The one whose number I can't recall was on the Ballaghaderreen branch when it closed, and also on the 1964 all-Ireland steam tour; I don't know what happened to it after that. The other two were to be seen in the mid-1960s on the Galway line with one (I think 79) a regular on the up day mail. Haulgae, of couures for these, would be any black, black and yellow or Crossley-era black'n'tan livery on an "A", or B121 / 141 / 181 types in the original black'n'tan, or a grey 121 too. They could have been hauled by the C class though these were rarely on passenger haulage after the West Cork closed.

By the time the AR (GM-engines) appeared, the last of these are gone. Obviously any supertrain or later livery on anything isn't historically accurate - though it IS your railway!

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

They’ll look good with the infamous Tailte tours Bachmann/Murphy’s  K class.

 

 The Black and Tan 6 wheeler can be seen below along with plenty of other strange scenes in a “transitional” era with a 141 hauling an entirely CIE green rake of coaches. 
 

 

 

That is a SUPERB film - I've never seen that before. A very great amount of interesting information therein...........

[Westcorkrailway]

In west cork days. To strengthen AEC railcar capacity instead of adding an intermediate. One or possibly 2 of 6 wheel coaches were attached to the end of the set adding yet another valid yet unusual use for the 6 wheel coaches in Ireland. 

Albert Quay was full of wrecks from just about anywhere at this stage, they were used on the clon junction branch before being replaced in deisal days with bogey coaches of some kind. The Baltimore branch was still regularly using these types of coaches  up until the very end it seems. I don’t thing the Courtmac branch used them if at all that line was more suited to the CB&SCR bogey coaches though I’m open to correction 

and as pointed out by darragh Connolly, There was a 4 wheel coach at this time…though just a single one 201A, an EX DN&GR/CB&SCR coach. Survived into CIE days as a departmental vehicle. Considering the fact this is the only one I know of to get a tiny snail on the door….all 6 wheelers is the only job 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[Niles]

32 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Six wheelers in the black'n'tan era 1963-70

While ALL passenger-carrying ones disappeared in 1963, thus just missing the new livery, some six full vans survived. Two were withdrawn shortly afterwards, still light green - but would have run with black and tan bogie stock. Another one I suspect also remained light green. The other three (69, now at Downpatrick; 79 and another) definitely were repainted black'n'tan. The one whose number I can't recall was on the Ballaghaderreen branch when it closed, and also on the 1964 all-Ireland steam tour; I don't know what happened to it after that. The other two were to be seen in the mid-1960s on the Galway line with one (I think 79) a regular on the up day mail. Haulgae, of couures for these, would be any black, black and yellow or Crossley-era black'n'tan livery on an "A", or B121 / 141 / 181 types in the original black'n'tan, or a grey 121 too. They could have been hauled by the C class though these were rarely on passenger haulage after the West Cork closed.

By the time the AR (GM-engines) appeared, the last of these are gone. Obviously any supertrain or later livery on anything isn't historically accurate - though it IS your railway!

Based on this lovely shot by Roger Joanes, 1077 appears to be the one of the 1964 tour (possibly one of the most well-travelled Irish carriages as such, widespread as they were I doubt many GSWR vehicles would have got to places like Ardee).  

 

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

They’ll look good with the infamous Tailte tours Bachmann/Murphy’s  K class.

 

Now you've given me an idea for a little headboard to go on my Woolwiches... if I only I knew the person who has the design for it though.

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

In west cork days. To strengthen AEC railcar capacity instead of adding an intermediate. One or possibly 2 of 6 wheel coaches were attached to the end of the set adding yet another valid yet unusual use for the 6 wheel coaches in Ireland. 

Albert Quay was full of wrecks from just about anywhere at this stage, they were used on the clon junction branch before being replaced in deisal days with bogey coaches of some kind. The Baltimore branch was still regularly using these types of coaches  up until the very end it seems. I don’t thing the Courtmac branch used them if at all that line was more suited to the CB&SCR bogey coaches though I’m open to correction 

and as pointed out by darragh Connolly, There was a 4 wheel coach at this time…though just a single one 201A, an EX DN&GR/CB&SCR coach. Survived into CIE days as a departmental vehicle. Considering the fact this is the only one I know of to get a tiny snail on the door….all 6 wheelers is the only job 

Indeed, though all of those are MGWR types. I did forget to mention that, though; six-wheelers were regular "trail cars" on the Cork - Tralee, Harcourt St - Bray, and Wedst Cork routes. I've an idea I saw a pic of one at the rear of a Dublin - Rosslare railcar service too.

4 minutes ago, Niles said:

Based on this lovely shot by Roger Joanes, 1077 appears to be the one of the 1964 tour (possibly one of the most well-travelled Irish carriages as such, widespread as they were I doubt many GSWR vehicles would have got to places like Ardee).  

 

Now you've given me an idea for a little headboard to go on my Woolwiches... if I only I knew the person who has the design for it though.

Yes, that's the one whose number I had forgotten!

[Westcorkrailway]

Something these coaches are slightly missing for that extra bit of irishness is the steps that most of these coaches had. Would it be worth making 3D prints of these and attaching them onto the sides if necessary or were lots of these coaches lacking steps 

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Something these coaches are slightly missing for that extra bit of irishness is the steps that most of these coaches had. Would it be worth making 3D prints of these and attaching them onto the sides if necessary or were lots of these coaches lacking steps 

VERY good point; it is my understanding that they will be supplied WITH them. Yes, you are right - almost all irish six-wheelers had DOUBLE footboards; British ones as often as not had none, or one.

[Moxy]

Yes, they do come with optional lower footboards, original specifications here

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=599

 

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Yes, they do come with optional lower footboards, original specifications here

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=599

 

So I take it they’ll be in the ”detail bag” for self application. That’s definitely a plus.

[murphaph]

The Genesis coaches centre axle has side to side play (it needs to or they would derail on curves). I think when you fit the footboards this play is limited and you can't get around smaller radii curves so as standard they are not fitted.

Edited November 14, 2022 by murphaph

[Westcorkrailway]

9 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The Genesis coaches centre axle has side to side play (it needs to or they would derail on curves). I think when you fit the footboards this play is limited and you can't get around smaller radii curves so as standard they are not fitted.

So with them on, you reckon radius 2 would be too much for them to cope with? All my track is radius 3 so I’ll survive 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[Rush and Lusk]

Jonathan, just to say thanks for your most informative piece above, written with your usual in depth knowledge, readability and wit. Order already placed with Hattons. 

George 

[murphaph]

7 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

So with them on, you reckon radius 2 would be too much for them to cope with? All my track is radius 3 so I’ll survive 

I honestly can't remember the cutoff radius. I just saw this being pointed out on one of the youtube channels.

[jhb171achill]

29 minutes ago, Rush and Lusk said:

Jonathan, just to say thanks for your most informative piece above, written with your usual in depth knowledge, readability and wit. Order already placed with Hattons. 

George 

Much appreciated, George, thank you. I look forward to getting my own!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

So I take it they’ll be in the ”detail bag” for self application. That’s definitely a plus.

Yet ANOTHER "plus", which I forgot to mention earlier, is the interiors. optional interior lighting (a few dud bulbs here and there maybe!), plus the fact that they even have the first and third class seat colours right. All too many model coaches have bright red or bright blue setas inside them, which makes them look like toys......

[DB JOE]

Looks like Hattons are on to a winner with these coaches!!! Got my order in. Now for the hard bit!!!! Doing the ot to pay for them!!!!!  Ohhhh my poor credit card!!!!!

[meathdane]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

EXCEPTIONALLY good news; I understand in limited numbers too.........

Good thing I've ordered the 4 pack, an extra green and a BnT, just to be sure! And so it begins......

 

Are they here yet?

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, meathdane said:

Good thing I've ordered the 4 pack, an extra green and a BnT, just to be sure! And so it begins......

 

Are they here yet?

They're stuck behind a failed empty cattle truck special near Donamon....loco's got two burst tubes.

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

They're stuck behind a failed empty cattle truck special near Donamon....loco's got two burst tubes.

But perhaps it comes in, in two hours
Perhaps it breaks down on the way
"If it does," says the guard, "be the powers
We're here for the rest of the day!"

(or 2023/4)

[Old Blarney]

Mr Beaumont,

CIE Liveried Coaches

Thank you, yet again, for your contributions on the vagaries of our Irish rolling stock, and for covering so thoroughly - the variety of consists, the era in which they ran, the locomotives that they were paired with, as well as the geographical lines they ended their days upon.

I placed my order this afternoon for these. I chose the four pack, individual 3rd, 2nd Class, composite, 3rd and 2nd Brake Vans in both liveries, and to finish things off, a couple of B&T Vans too.  All to remind me of my days when I watched and travelled on 1950s CIÉ, in a coach that had six wheels, a half compartment partition, and bounced its merry way from Sydney Parade to Killiney, without stopping at Booterstown Station.  Even better, a train from Harcourt Street to Bray and sighting GSR Maroon six-wheel coaches at Foxrock.  Perhaps, Hattons may consider a Great Southern version of these too.  Would this be unlikely as it is too far in the past?

I just hope I'm still alive and able to run my Model Railways when deliver of these coaches takes place. This is really a comment for you young McAllister!!

Oh, coach numbers and possible duplication. I believe, unless I misunderstood the conversation, I held with Hattons, the four pack numbers are not duplicated by any of the other coaches. 

Jonathan, again, thank you for all your contribution and time on this matter and others too.

 

White.