Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[Galteemore]

3 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Boris seemed quite keen on Cincinnatus.....

Perhaps because he didn’t stay at the plough but returned to power ….

[leslie10646]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

Cincinnatus ? That old Inst classical education left its mark Leslie ….although I think you’ll leave the logbooks when IRM roll out that S class in lined blue with sound..,,,

Sadly not Inst, David, but living with a noted Classicist probably helps .....

I don't need help on the S Class front - two in service and one in workshop. I'll post pics just to annoy everyone.

Not sneering, of course ..........

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Boris seemed quite keen on Cincinnatus.....

I did indeed think he had it. You could tell by the look of him. You see, he’s too arrogant to admit that he needs ointment for cincinnatus. It can turn nasty if untreated.

[Dave Dawes]

I'm struggling to find photos of Irish 6 wheel coaches in any of my Irish railway books. 

Do I order a couple, or do I leave it and put the money towards silverfox bogie stock. Also if I order, dark or light green for a layout from 1961- 1965

 

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, Dave Dawes said:

I'm struggling to find photos of Irish 6 wheel coaches in any of my Irish railway books. 

Do I order a couple, or do I leave it and put the money towards silverfox bogie stock. Also if I order, dark or light green for a layout from 1961- 1965

 

Light green started in 1955, and while the black’n’tan appeared first in late 62, green (bogie) coaches were to be seen until as late as 1968.

Since the last passenger-carrying six-wheelers were retired in 1963, none were black’n’tan. Several full vans survived though, and at least 2, maybe 3 of those ended up black’n’tan.

The darker Green livery was 1945-1955, but when any livery changes, the transformation is never overnight.

So just like you’ll have a decreasing handful of green coaches into the black’n’tan era, you’d have had a few darker green coaches up to maybe 1960/1.

[Westcorkrailway]

22 minutes ago, Dave Dawes said:

I'm struggling to find photos of Irish 6 wheel coaches in any of my Irish railway books. 

Do I order a couple, or do I leave it and put the money towards silverfox bogie stock. Also if I order, dark or light green for a layout from 1961- 1965

 

I would hold off on ordering from silverfox as they usually only produced Irish models in august to October….I have a feeling in the next 12 months we may have something even better then the silver fox bogeys 

[jhb171achill]

So 1961-5, light green six-wheelers until 1963, but maybe an old dark green full brake. After 1963, a light green ir black’n’tan full brake but no passenger ones….

 

….hope that helps!

[Dave Dawes]

29 minutes ago, Dave Dawes said:

I'm struggling to find photos of Irish 6 wheel coaches in any of my Irish railway books. 

Do I order a couple, or do I leave it and put the money towards silverfox bogie stock. Also if I order, dark or light green for a layout from 1961- 1965

 

Another quick question, did the steam heat vans run with 6 wheelers?

[jhb171achill]

23 minutes ago, Dave Dawes said:

Another quick question, did the steam heat vans run with 6 wheelers?

Yes, for a few years.

The “tin vans” appeared in the late 50s, and would have been used everywhere, with diesel haulage as a necessity, and even on steam trains as a brake van.

Bogie, six-wheel, mix of both, branchline, main line, mail trains, the lot.

[Leyny]

Apologies if this has already been asked, but despite owning a heap of coaches and wagons over the last 40 years, I've never actually had any 6-wheeled vehicles. The layout I have is pretty tight (just 8' x 4') and my IRM A's struggle to get round it without derailing (due to the positioning of pointwork, they're a lot better going one way than the other). So how are 6-wheelers on tight layouts? They'd be ideal for GAA/Knock excursion traffic on my layout of the Burma Road, so long as they'd actually run on the thing!

[leslie10646]

Hi Leyney

I have a Peco Setrack point (very small radius) in my goods yard, so I'll shunt my LNWR set over it and report back. They run very well on 2ft curves.

It'll be after Christmas though, we're into Three Line Whip territory now and I have to be a good father / grandfather for the next 48 hours, then me time's me own.

Merry Christmas.

[jhb171achill]

On 23/12/2022 at 10:06 PM, Leyny said:

Apologies if this has already been asked, but despite owning a heap of coaches and wagons over the last 40 years, I've never actually had any 6-wheeled vehicles. The layout I have is pretty tight (just 8' x 4') and my IRM A's struggle to get round it without derailing (due to the positioning of pointwork, they're a lot better going one way than the other). So how are 6-wheelers on tight layouts? They'd be ideal for GAA/Knock excursion traffic on my layout of the Burma Road, so long as they'd actually run on the thing!

Even ordinary local services could have them occasionally, maybe one mixed in with other bogie stock, until the very early 60s.

They were in general use in Ireland for decades after Britain got rid of them; right until closure in 1950, the entire BCDR system had little more than about a dozen bogies - six-wheelers were absolutely standard. CIE used them on branches, main line locals anc excursions - and for extra short-notice accommodation on main lines, until the very start of 1963. In suburban use, the Harcourt St line and the Cork-Cobh line had them until the end, while you’d get one occasionally tagged onto the back of a modern AEC railcar set on the Cork - Tralee and Cork - Bantry services, and even Dublin - Rosslare, into the early 60s.

[Colin R]

Anybody know of a decent bank rate loan? I think this has just become very expensive.

How many are in the range? 

[Fowler4f]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Anybody know of a decent bank rate loan? I think this has just become very expensive.

How many are in the range? 

It’s on Hattons website, future releases. BnT full brake, Light & Dark Green, 2nd, 3rd, Composite, 2nd brake, full brake. Interior lighting kits available.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Fowler4f

[Noel]

Ordered. Perfect behind a J15 or even mixed with some laminates and a black IRM A class.

[Colin R]

I wonder what sort of run numbers do you think they would have to do for each model, I can see that most of the Irish (CIE) models going to people on here.

Which begs the question I wonder if they might do a second run with different numbers?

[Westcorkrailway]

50 minutes ago, Colin R said:

I wonder what sort of run numbers do you think they would have to do for each model, I can see that most of the Irish (CIE) models going to people on here.

Which begs the question I wonder if they might do a second run with different numbers?

All depends on how successful this first run is….besides there is plenty of running numbers in the pre-55 green already. 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Ordered. Perfect behind a J15 or even mixed with some laminates and a black IRM A class.

Not a black one; the black livery was arriving just as the last six-wheelers were departing!

So, to go with any passenger-carrying six-wheelers, the following:

- Any steam

- Silver A, B101 or C

- Green A, B101 or C

- Grey & Yellow B121

By the time the B121s, A, C & B101 were repainted black'n'tan, and LATER black, and by the time the B141s were first introduced the only six-wheelers left were about six full brakes, 2 or 3 of which became black'n'tan and were to be found mostly in Galway mail trains. That's why Hattons are only offering the full brake in black'n'tan - no passenger carrying six-wheel stock survived long enough to be painted thus. They all ended their days in green.

54 minutes ago, Colin R said:

I wonder what sort of run numbers do you think they would have to do for each model, I can see that most of the Irish (CIE) models going to people on here.

Which begs the question I wonder if they might do a second run with different numbers?

Don't know how many they are making, but let's just say that they are in possession of a list of several number options for each type! So, we all buy this run up, and I'm sure that might prompt more..........

 

[murphaph]

I reckon this run will sell out fairly easily.

[Colin R]

Beside the CIE livery ones, I have pre ordered the Midland and BR version crimson coaches to represent the old B&NCR stock, there will be a bit of respraying to be done, I have a photo somewhere of 14 B&NCR 6 wheelers heading down towards Ballynahinch Junction behind a large Baltic Tank, another photo I have seen has 7 coaches behind the same class of loco.

Sadly I have missed out on the GNR version to represent the GNR(I) as they have all been sold, but I think they may make another appearance at some time, I am not sure just how much this little lot is going to cost me, but I won't be short of 6 wheel coaches.

Wasn't the old Dublin and South Eastern carriage livery Crimson/ Maroon as well?

       

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Colin R said:

Wasn't the old Dublin and South Eastern carriage livery Crimson/ Maroon as well?

Indeed it was, though I’m not 100% sure of the shade. Probably not unlike a darker version of LMS maroon.

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Colin R said:

Beside the CIE livery ones, I have pre ordered the Midland and BR version crimson coaches to represent the old B&NCR stock, there will be a bit of respraying to be done, I have a photo somewhere of 14 B&NCR 6 wheelers heading down towards Ballynahinch Junction behind a large Baltic Tank, another photo I have seen has 7 coaches behind the same class of loco

It would be BCDR, rather than BNCR, to Ballynahinch Junction.

The BNCR stock was of a very distinctive design, with flat sides. Unlike anything else in Ireland, and (like, it must be said, six-wheel stock of most companies) no more like the Hattons design than a Pendolino.

In any event, by the time the NCC took over the BNCR, they had much fewer six wheelers left, as they were early advocates of bogies. What few they had probably ended their life on the Larne or Derry Central, of mouldering in sidings awaiting the next orangeman’s or Sunday school outing.

The Hattons stock is close enough to several GSWR designs, but not really other Irish companies. Design wise they’re different too, from DSER of BCDR designs - but would suit them better than, say, GNR, MGWR or BNCR /NCC.

[Lambeg man]

On 29/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, Colin R said:

I have a photo somewhere of 14 B&NCR 6 wheelers heading down towards Ballynahinch Junction behind a large Baltic Tank, another photo I have seen has 7 coaches behind the same class of loco.

Hi Colin, may I also add that a Baltic heading for Ballynahinch Junction would be very unusual. Because of their weight the Baltic's were restricted to the Belfast-Bangor line. 

[Galteemore]

Is it possibly Ballymacarrett Junction? That was regular Baltic territory.

[Colin R]

15 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Is it possibly Ballymacarrett Junction? That was regular Baltic territory.

could well be as I saw it on the defuncted BCDR website

[leslie10646]

On 23/12/2022 at 10:06 PM, Leyny said:

Apologies if this has already been asked, but despite owning a heap of coaches and wagons over the last 40 years, I've never actually had any 6-wheeled vehicles. The layout I have is pretty tight (just 8' x 4') and my IRM A's struggle to get round it without derailing (due to the positioning of pointwork, they're a lot better going one way than the other). So how are 6-wheelers on tight layouts? They'd be ideal for GAA/Knock excursion traffic on my layout of the Burma Road, so long as they'd actually run on the thing!

Sorry to have been so long reporting back regarding the suitability of these six wheelers to small radius curves.

I tried my trio over the Setrak points in my yard this evening  - they don't like them!

The point is just under 18 inch radius, so I suggest that these coaches need a bit more!

They are very happy on my normal 2 foot curves and sail over my crossover (medium radius - that's 36 inches, of course). I think if your curves are much under two feet, I'd get the loan of one and try it out!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Sorry to have been so long reporting back regarding the suitability of these six wheelers to small radius curves.

I tried my trio over the Setrak points in my yard this evening  - they don't like them!

The point is just under 18 inch radius, so I suggest that these coaches need a bit more!

They are very happy on my normal 2 foot curves and sail over my crossover (medium radius - that's 36 inches, of course). I think if your curves are much under two feet, I'd get the loan of one and try it out!

Interesting! My sharpest curve is, I think, just over 2ft radius........

[leslie10646]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting! My sharpest curve is, I think, just over 2ft radius........

Impressive strategic planning.

Do you know what is going to win the 3pm at xxxxxxx today?

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Impressive strategic planning.

Do you know what is going to win the 3pm at xxxxxxx today?

Yes, I do know.

[Broithe]

13 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting! My sharpest curve is, I think, just over 2ft radius........

A common issue in the weeks after Christmas...

[minister_for_hardship]

On 18/11/2022 at 12:38 PM, jhb171achill said:

Very good thinking.

Sourcing suitable short wheelbase bogies shouldn’t be a problem - with the double footboards hiding them, the “two-foot rule” may be liberally applied.

Many of the CBSCR “shorties” Mayner mentions were culled in early CIE days, but sat about for years in that museum graveyard that was Albert Quay. They were replaced by (I think five) ancient GSWR bogies of 35-40ft long, for excursions on the T & C. These feature in many pics at Courtmacsherry, even behind “C” class diesels, or double-headed 90 + 100.

These yokes, being ex-GSWR, are even MORE suitable for the Hattons stock, as the GSWR is by a very long way the closest design to them!

Latterly, with Cork’s inevitable sense of independence (!), they were in a non-standard livery - all-over DARK green, with no lining or snails, just a number. This seems to have been a Republic of Glanmire application to secondary stock, boy, as some ex-CBSC stock was similarly treated, boy.

Even in GSR days, Cark did not stick to the playbook.

Cork & Macroom stock, simply lettered 'GS' and not a coat of arms to be seen. Or lining.

[Westcorkrailway]

5 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Even in GSR days, Cark did not stick to the playbook.

Cork & Macroom stock, simply lettered 'GS' and not a coat of arms to be seen. Or lining.

And with 4 wheels…..

[Irishswissernie]

Glengarriff has a fair number of Set Track points in the fiddle yard etc so as I couldn't remember actually running a train with the Hattons 6 wheel coaches I have just given them a run out. The circuit off stage has 8 set track points. both facing and trailing on the curved route. No problems ( much to my amazement!)

 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 minute ago, Irishswissernie said:

Glengarriff has a fair number of Set Track points in the fiddle yard etc so as I couldn't remember actually running a train with the Hattons 6 wheel coaches I have just given them a run out. The circuit off stage has 8 set track points. both facing and trailing on the curved route. No problems ( much to my amazement!)

 

There going at speed too! 
 

the detail demonstrated in this video makes me giddy for the Irish ones….even if there over a year out at least 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

And with 4 wheels…..

6-wheeler with centre pair removed. There was one ex-MGW one which was treated like that too.

The plain unlined maroon livery was common from very early 30s on little-used spare stock, to which these things had been relegated at the time.