Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[leslie10646]

Well that confirms what I always knew - my tracklaying is appalling!

[Leyny]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:01 PM, leslie10646 said:

Sorry to have been so long reporting back regarding the suitability of these six wheelers to small radius curves.

I tried my trio over the Setrak points in my yard this evening  - they don't like them!

Not at all, you're doing me the favour here and thanks for the feedback. I may try to pick up a 6 wheeler, even second hand, to see how it gets on. 

[leslie10646]

It'll be a long time before you see secondhand ones, but I'm sure one of the guys on this site lives near you and will have a few to bring and test?

[Leyny]

On 5/1/2023 at 8:00 PM, leslie10646 said:

It'll be a long time before you see secondhand ones, but I'm sure one of the guys on this site lives near you and will have a few to bring and test?

I have a cunning plan. I managed to pick up one of the last 6-wheelers from their current British Genesis range (in fact the very last composite lav in LNER pre-war brown). It looks to be identical to what the Irish ones will be (apart from the livery obviously), so that'll soon tell me where I stand. My intention is to unbox it, test it and promptly rebox and sell it. I'd never look to fleece another modeller (scalping, especially in a community as small and interdependent as the modelling scene, goes against all my principles) but as that range is now sold out, I should have no problem covering my costs. I'll let the good folks here know how I get on. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Leyny

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, Leyny said:

I have a cunning plan. I managed to pick up one of the last 6-wheelers from their current British Genesis range (in fact the very last composite lav in LNER pre-war brown). It looks to be identical to what the Irish ones will be (apart from the livery obviously), so that'll soon tell me where I stand. My intention is to unbox it, test it and promptly rebox and sell it. I'd never look to fleece another modeller (scalping, especially in a community as small and interdependent as the modelling scene, goes against all my principles) but as that range is now sold out, I should have no problem covering my costs. I'll let the good folks here know how I get on. 

An excellent plan indeed!

[Colin R]

1 hour ago, Leyny said:

I have a cunning plan. I managed to pick up one of the last 6-wheelers from their current British Genesis range (in fact the very last composite lav in LNER pre-war brown). It looks to be identical to what the Irish ones will be (apart from the livery obviously), so that'll soon tell me where I stand. My intention is to unbox it, test it and promptly rebox and sell it. I'd never look to fleece another modeller (scalping, especially in a community as small and interdependent as the modelling scene, goes against all my principles) but as that range is now sold out, I should have no problem covering my costs. I'll let the good folks here know how I get on. 

 I am sure that you will sell it for what you got on e Bay

[Leyny]

On 10/1/2023 at 9:49 PM, Leyny said:

I have a cunning plan. I managed to pick up one of the last 6-wheelers from their current British Genesis range (in fact the very last composite lav in LNER pre-war brown). It looks to be identical to what the Irish ones will be (apart from the livery obviously), so that'll soon tell me where I stand.

This plan took longer to implement than I'd anticipated due to the Royal Mail cyber attack but I finally managed to test the coach on my layout yesterday evening. Things didn't go smoothly. I have a couple of medium radius points at the middle part of my bends and it derailed on this every time. The issue looks to be with the floating centre axle. This has a bit of play in it to allow the coach negotiate bends but I think the fact that it's so far off centre when encountering the floating blade of the point is causing it to jump at that point and derail the coach. As my A Class are also struggling to stay on the rails at that point, I think I'll need to do some work there, so I'm going to hang on to this to test the outcome of that. I'll go ahead and order my Irish ones, if I can't get this to stay on the rails even after that I can always cancel when they become available. 

Have to say it's a nice model and very good value for money. My LNER model (the one at the link below) comes with lighting etc, which for £40 is very reasonable these days. 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/492466/hattons_originals_h4_6cl_601l_6_wheel_composite_lavatory_1st_3rd_486_in_lner_pre_war_brown_with_working_light/stockdetail

Edited February 6, 2023 by Leyny

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Leyny said:

This plan took longer to implement than I'd anticipated due to the Royal Mail cyber attack but I finally managed to test the coach on my layout yesterday evening. Things didn't go smoothly. I have a couple of medium radius points at the middle part of my bends and it derailed on this every time. The issue looks to be with the floating centre axle. This has a bit of play in it to allow the coach negotiate bends but I think the fact that it's so far off centre when encountering the floating blade of the point is causing it to jump at that point and derail the coach. As my A Class are also struggling to stay on the rails at that point, I think I'll need to do some work there, so I'm going to hang on to this to test the outcome of that. I'll go ahead and order my Irish ones, if I can't get this to stay on the rails even after that I can always cancel when they become available. 

Have to say it's a nice model and very good value for money. My LNER model (the one at the link below) comes with lighting etc, which for £40 is very reasonable these days. 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/492466/hattons_originals_h4_6cl_601l_6_wheel_composite_lavatory_1st_3rd_486_in_lner_pre_war_brown_with_working_light/stockdetail

Wondering how it’ll be on a sharpish curve I will have…..

[Westcorkrailway]

Decorated samples out. Those dark green ones look tasty 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=594&utm_source=klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=modvehid5011-hattonsgenesisbatch2decosampleswave2&_kx=iCdbkTRB54bdvBXfhOMmOPw0dwQaz3qeKhoAguXYCnoxcrtQZf5qOka6e3Zv4R_b.JGQeXh

[Flying Snail]

Very tasty indeed!

[Westcorkrailway]

 

 

 

I have 3 of the light green and the four dark green coaches pre-ordered….it would apear the Black and Tan one is SOLD OUT. I wonder how many of those ones were made compared to the other liveries  

[Patrick Davey]

Can't wait for these - have the B&T one plus the 4-pack dark greens on order.  A perfect fit for my current CIÉ layout.

[Colin R]

Hi Guys can someone remind me which came first the light or the dark green livery, I am trying for the 1940 -1960's period.

Regards

Colin R

 

[Westcorkrailway]

17 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Hi Guys can someone remind me which came first the light or the dark green livery, I am trying for the 1940 -1960's period.

Regards

Colin R

 

The dark green was 1945 - 1955 officially but could be seen in the late 1950s. 

the light green was introduced around 1955 and lasted officially until 1962 unofficially a good few years beyond 

[Colin R]

Thank you just got to wait to the end of the month to see how much I can spend on these coaches, I  would like to have the rake of coaches that appeared in the quite man film.

Colin 

[Westcorkrailway]

25 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Thank you just got to wait to the end of the month to see how much I can spend on these coaches, I  would like to have the rake of coaches that appeared in the quite man film.

Colin 

In the clips of the quiet man, It appears to be a full break

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056106/hattons_originals_h4_6fb_1701_6_wheel_full_brake_18_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

 

2 3rd class coaches

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056103/hattons_originals_h4_6t_1701b_6_wheel_3rd_419_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056102/hattons_originals_h4_6t_1701a_6_wheel_3rd_453_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

 

and a coach with both 1st and 3rd class compartments

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056104/hattons_originals_h4_6c13_1701_6_wheel_composite_1st_3rd_452_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

 

Alternatively you could get the 4 coach pack and save a few quid although this contains a brake instead of a full break. 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056099/hattons_originals_h4_46pack_1701_pack_of_4_coaches_in_cie_dark_green_6t_6t_6cl_6bt_/stockdetail

 

That’s as far as I can make out from the below video 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[DJ Dangerous]

On 21/9/2023 at 12:11 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

 

 

 

I have 3 of the light green and the four dark green coaches pre-ordered….it would apear the Black and Tan one is SOLD OUT. I wonder how many of those ones were made compared to the other liveries  

 

Just to clarify, the black and orange full brake no. 79 is NOT sold out.

The TITLE says that it's sold out, but you can still buy it.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056113/hattons_originals_h4_6fb_1703_6_wheel_full_brake_79_in_cie_black_tan_sold_out_on_pre_order/stockdetail

Click "Pre-order" or "Pre-order to trunk" and it IS available.

 

 

[minister_for_hardship]

It's a little odd they didn't make a set of the light green ones.

[Flying Snail]

3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

It's a little odd they didn't make a set of the light green ones.

Don't worry, they did those too

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056112/hattons_originals_h4_6fb_1702_6_wheel_full_brake_72_in_cie_light_green/stockdetail

there's also a few 6-wheel 2nds, a 2nd brake and composite lav in light green

EDIT: Just realised you probably meant a 4-pack - yes, I agree: they did it for most of the other liveries (including the dark green) so it is a little strange they didn't do it here too. Perhaps as @Westcorkrailway says, its because they don't anticipate as much demand?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Flying Snail

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

It's a little odd they didn't make a set of the light green ones.

I think there are far fewer light green ones being sold. As the IRM A class shows. The dark geeen livery is one of the most popular liveries A46 sold out months before A42 ect. 
 

not to mention a Lot of 6 wheelers got the Axe Before they got the light green livery anyways

[jhb171achill]

On 21/9/2023 at 2:55 PM, Colin R said:

Hi Guys can someone remind me which came first the light or the dark green livery, I am trying for the 1940 -1960's period.

Regards

Colin R

 

Dark green 1945-55, with some examples remaining longer.

Light green 1955-62. 
 

Black’n’tan 1962 onwards.

Most six-wheelers in traffic by 1960 were repainted light green.

ALL passenger-carrying six wheelers were withdrawn by 1963, so none got B’n’T. However, a few six-wheeled full vans (3 or at most 4) survived into the late 60s, gaining BnT. This is why only the van is offered in this livery.

[DiveController]

On 26/9/2023 at 10:46 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

I think there are far fewer light green ones being sold. As the IRM A class shows. The dark geeen livery is one of the most popular liveries A46 sold out months before A42 ect. 
 

not to mention a Lot of 6 wheelers got the Axe Before they got the light green livery anyways

Difficult to judge the popularity of any of the IRM A class since a set number was not necessarily made, unless you have access to that close to the chest information? Popularity of the A46 liveried one could be related to the prevalence and longevity of the prototypical livery, anticipated demand, general appeal of the particular livery, batch sizes of other A class models, etc etc

On 28/9/2023 at 10:11 AM, jhb171achill said:

Dark green 1945-55, with some examples remaining longer.

Light green 1955-62. 
 

Black’n’tan 1962 onwards.

Most six-wheelers in traffic by 1960 were repainted light green.

ALL passenger-carrying six wheelers were withdrawn by 1963, so none got B’n’T. However, a few six-wheeled full vans (3 or at most 4) survived into the late 60s, gaining BnT. This is why only the van is offered in this livery.

Given that the dark green livery was the official type for a decade, versus about 8 years for the lighter green, I presume the relative lack of light green in traffic is related to displacement by the substantial bogie coach building program of the early 50s, and some delay in repainting the dark green into light green particularly of they were being cascaded to secondary routes?   Its a shame that we don't have an Irish rtr steam engine to pull these, other that a OOworks J15 I mean 

Edited October 5, 2023 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, DiveController said:

….  Its a shame that we don't have an Irish rtr steam engine to pull these, other that a OOworks J15 I mean 

My thoughts exactly. A 4.4.0 of GSWR design would be a good and versatile bet.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

Difficult to judge the popularity of any of the IRM A class since a set number was not necessarily made, unless you have access to that close to the chest information? Popularity of the A46 liveried one could be related to the prevalence and longevity of the prototypical livery, anticipated demand, general appeal of the particular livery, batch sizes of other A class models, etc etc

 

What I will say to back myself is I put up both 6 wheeler sets up on FB on the same FB group at the exact same time recently just too see if I could add to that conclusion I made 

 

On the hattons website as well as that particular FB group the Dark green livery got more then double the “likes” that the light green did. 
 

A46 was more or less a 1 off livery on the A class. Not too many A class wore the dark green as far as I’m aware. Maybe even just the 1 A class and 1 C class while most of the A class fleet wore the lighter green as far as I’m aware.  Dark was far more prevelent then the light green though because the coffers were dry for repainting some of the oldest of old stuff I.e. less veritiety . It seems the livery asthetically anyway is more popular 

can’t speak about batch numbers but I’m willing to bet that it was very similar-ish numbers for A42 and A46. A46 was one of the first to sell out and A46 being one of the last. That can be seen as well in the resale prices.

 

tis a shame because I actually am a big appericiated of the light green and find it a shame that it was the livery for such a short period (even if some coaches lasted in light green into ‘67) 

 

 

[leslie10646]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

My thoughts exactly. A 4.4.0 of GSWR design would be a good and versatile bet.

JB

I agree that a rtr model of one of the GSWR 4-4-0s, would be delightful, but did they run many trains after about 1955?

A quick scan of some of the books, plus Irish Railfans' News for 1955 suggest very rapid dieselisation and such mainline steam as was on the Cork line was 400 or 800 Class 4-6-0s, or Woolwich moguls.

The humble J15 still did a lot of secondary work still and bizarrely a handful of MGWR 2-4-0s (like Mayner's little engines) ran some of the branches right into the 1960s, as did various ex-MGWR 0-6-0 classes.

[GSR 800]

12 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

JB

I agree that a rtr model of one of the GSWR 4-4-0s, would be delightful, but did they run many trains after about 1955?

A quick scan of some of the books, plus Irish Railfans' News for 1955 suggest very rapid dieselisation and such mainline steam as was on the Cork line was 400 or 800 Class 4-6-0s, or Woolwich moguls.

The humble J15 still did a lot of secondary work still and bizarrely a handful of MGWR 2-4-0s (like Mayner's little engines) ran some of the branches right into the 1960s, as did various ex-MGWR 0-6-0 classes.

Locomotives that got to Amiens Street or Limerick after Inchicore closed to steam give a good idea of what was still kicking around in later years. 309 lasted a good long while anyway.

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

JB

I agree that a rtr model of one of the GSWR 4-4-0s, would be delightful, but did they run many trains after about 1955?

A quick scan of some of the books, plus Irish Railfans' News for 1955 suggest very rapid dieselisation and such mainline steam as was on the Cork line was 400 or 800 Class 4-6-0s, or Woolwich moguls.

The humble J15 still did a lot of secondary work still and bizarrely a handful of MGWR 2-4-0s (like Mayner's little engines) ran some of the branches right into the 1960s, as did various ex-MGWR 0-6-0 classes.

They certainly thinned out, Leslie, especially after the C class entered traffic in 1956/7/8, but a few remained on main line stopping trains, plus there were only a few years of steam left anyway.

With growing interest - partly fuelled by your excellent wagons - in the “dark green” era, steam is necessary for most passenger workings.

By the time A, C & B101 class diesels were hauling passenger trains, the coaching stock was rapidly becoming the lighter shade of green; a point to be borne in mind by the good folks wanting green six-wheelers to put behind IRM “A”s!

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

JB

I agree that a rtr model of one of the GSWR 4-4-0s, would be delightful, but did they run many trains after about 1955?

A quick scan of some of the books, plus Irish Railfans' News for 1955 suggest very rapid dieselisation and such mainline steam as was on the Cork line was 400 or 800 Class 4-6-0s, or Woolwich moguls.

The humble J15 still did a lot of secondary work still and bizarrely a handful of MGWR 2-4-0s (like Mayner's little engines) ran some of the branches right into the 1960s, as did various ex-MGWR 0-6-0 classes.

Its more likely that a J15 hauled ex-GSWR branch line trains in CIE days, the majority of GSWR branch lines lost their passenger services by 1947 leaving Birr, Kenmare, Valencia and Youghal open to passenger traffic. Large ex-GSWR 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s likely to have been used on Cork-Youghal Line.  Valencia branch trains were restricted to 6w coaches until restrictions eased and bogie coaches with large dia buffers allowed during mid 1950s

Interestingly my ex-MGWR 2-4-0 kits sold a lot better than my ex-GSWR 52 Class 4-4-0 kits in a 3:1 ratio.

Perhaps the best option would be for OO Works to produce a model of McDonald's NER D38 Class https://www.lner.info/locos/D/ner_38.php which look very close to the GSWR 60 Class, though its difficult if there is sufficient interest in a D38 Class among NER enthusiasts.

Or to ask the company that holds the streaming rights to the Quite Man to sponsor a train set with a high quality model of No 59

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Its more likely that a J15 hauled ex-GSWR branch line trains in CIE days, the majority of GSWR branch lines lost their passenger services by 1947 leaving Birr, Kenmare, Valencia and Youghal open to passenger traffic. Large ex-GSWR 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s likely to have been used on Cork-Youghal Line.  Valencia branch trains were restricted to 6w coaches until restrictions eased and bogie coaches with large dia buffers allowed during mid 1950s

Interestingly my ex-MGWR 2-4-0 kits sold a lot better than my ex-GSWR 52 Class 4-4-0 kits in a 3:1 ratio.

Perhaps the best option would be for OO Works to produce a model of McDonald's NER D38 Class https://www.lner.info/locos/D/ner_38.php which look very close to the GSWR 60 Class, though its difficult if there is sufficient interest in a D38 Class among NER enthusiasts.

Or to ask the company that holds the streaming rights to the Quite Man to sponsor a train set with a high quality model of No 59

I wonder if sales were impacted by the notorious difficulties balancing 4-4-0 kits? (IIRC there's a thread with an S class under construction where this is noted)

Alternatively, the sheer longevity of the 2-4-0s probably gives them the edge, they can be justified on an early '60s layout.

the resemblance with the 38 and the Achill Bogie is striking

Edited October 6, 2023 by GSR 800

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

I wonder if sales were impacted by the notorious difficulties balancing 4-4-0 kits? (IIRC there's a thread with an S class under construction where this is noted)

Alternatively, the sheer longevity of the 2-4-0s probably gives them the edge, they can be justified on an early '60s layout.

 

Don't think balancing was an issue more the fact that I produced 3 variations of the MGWR 2-4-0 and 1 of the GSWR 4-4-0.

 In my experience the demand for kits of Irish locos/stock is very low, with a relatively small number of regular customers, a high proportion of whom are experienced builders.

There is little difference between balancing a 4-4-0 and a 2-4-0 ideally both types best assembled with a weighted tender to haul a reasonable load.

Balancing appears to have been a problem with the OO Works GNR(I) U where there does not appear to have been a provision for transferring weight from the tender to the loco drawbar

 

[leslie10646]

Regarding John's comment about the 00 Works U Class, I don't remember having an issue with mine. That MAY be because I never put more than a few coaches behind her.

Anyway, the proof of the pudding is to try it and as my granddaughter (4) is apparently dying to see my trains working - her dad took her upstairs to see when I wasn't around - I shall get the U Class out (layout cleared for trackwork) and try it with, say, five bogies. They wouldn't have taken more than maybe six or seven, even on the Bundoran Express.

I had one run with a "U" in 1964 on the 1015 from Derry (probably five plus a van) and it was well below the relatively poor standard of the S Class usually on the train.

Unhappily John is right, getting a model 4-4-0 to pull as much as their prototype seems very hard work. I nearly cried when my brass S Class, after much modification by Alan Edgar (Splendid Fellow), took ELEVEN round the layout - twenty years after the engine had been built!

More later. I have to stay downstairs to her the Postie when he delivers a load of kits from Michael.

[leslie10646]

Mayner suggested: Perhaps the best option would be for OO Works to produce a model of McDonald's NER D38 Class https://www.lner.info/locos/D/ner_38.php which look very close to the GSWR 60 Class, though its difficult if there is sufficient interest in a D38 Class among NER enthusiasts.

Yes, superficially close, I haven't got McMahon to hand to check fully, but a look at photos in Decade of Steam certainly show likeness and quite major differences - the larger cab carried in  later years, the safety valves, smokebox details, from the trivial (wheel versus levers) and a different "saddle". The tender could be tweaked. None beyond Roderick's capability, I would think.

Who's going to ask him ......?????

[jhb171achill]

17 hours ago, Mayner said:

Its more likely that a J15 hauled ex-GSWR branch line trains in CIE days, the majority of GSWR branch lines lost their passenger services by 1947 leaving Birr, Kenmare, Valencia and Youghal open to passenger traffic. Large ex-GSWR 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s likely to have been used on Cork-Youghal Line. 

 

Kenmare too....  4.4.0s were on that line regularly until the mid-1950s, though J15s were the norm, of course, as you suggest.

[Mayner]

Scratchbuilding or commissioning someone to scratch build a GSWR 4-4-0 is probably the most practical approach for someone who wants a GSWR 4-4-0 as its difficult to see a manufacturer or "commissioner"  with the possible exception of OO Works producing a rtr model or a kit.

One of the difficulties in the sheer level of variation among the three classes of pre 1900 and six Classes of post 1900 4-4-0s that survived into the CIE era, not counting the ex-WLWR 4-4-0s

JHB points out that 4-4-0s "The Kerry Bogies (a tiny engine) once worked the Kenmare branch all surviving members of the class were re-built by the GSR with Belpair boilers once common in Cork and Kerry all had gone by 1954.

I produced a kit of the 52 Class with raised round topped firebox that could be assembled in GSWR or GSR/CIE condition, the majority of the Class were re-built with Belpair Boiler boilers in the 1930-40s in my opining spoiling the looks of the loco, 59 the "Quiet Man" engine was basically a 'one off" loco with a flush round topped firebox and 4'4" boiler not shared with other members of the class, possibly 3 sets of boiler and cab toolings for a single class of loco.

The sheer number of variations in the slightly larger 60 Class are somewhat mind-blowing along with the original and superheated belpaire boiler versions, the GSR re-built come locos with new raised running boards and Bazin cabs similar to the large 321 Class to give them a more "contemporary" look during the 1920s.

In all probability one of the large "modern looking" post 1900 321 or 333 Class 4-4-0s with a rake of Bachmann/Mainline Period 1 LMS coaches in GSR or early CIE livery would be a better option for an Irish "Train Set" steam loco, though unlikely to have hauled a solid rake of 6 wheel coaches unless on a GAA special.

The re-built 321s were reasonably consistent in their appearance an express passenger loco used on the Main Line don't know if they worked to Limerick, Waterford or Tralee.

[Edo]

Hattons now advising May 2024 delivery for these. Lots of delays on production of all sorts of stuff in China at the moment......