Guinness locos

[Colin R]

Hi Guys 

I just picked this up from an email group I belong to and wondered if anyone can help

 

Roger Hahn via groups.io <belpaire=aol.com@groups.io>	03:00 (7 hours ago)
to IndustrialRailwaySociety

There are the 6 Spence built narrow gauge Guinness locomotives residing in museums but there is a 7th that survived into private preservation.  From various sources it seems the locomotive (likely #21) was acquired by a Guinness employee in 1975 in rather derelict condition. According to uklocos.com it is residing near the town of Taum in Ireland.  There are 2 updates, one from 2006 and another from 2012 with the  letters “dsm” which I’m guessing means dismantled.  Also, a number of years ago I came across a site that lists railway items that had been sold at auction and it showed show the number plate for #21  

I have scoured the internet but have not come across any photos of this locomotive in its private ownership.  Since there have been sightings of the beast it would seem someone must have photos of it. Also, does anyone know its current status?

It is owned by one Gary Skelton?

Roger

Edited January 20, 2023 by Colin R

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

I presume it's Tuam they mean? 

[skinner75]

Some info from Guinness site on the railway:

https://www.guinness-storehouse.com/content/pdf/archive-factsheets/transport-cooperage/brewery_railway.pdf

another article on the Guinness railway, with a list of locos and when they were withdrawn:

https://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/04/26/the-guinness-brewery-railways-dublin/

[Colin R]

44 minutes ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

I presume it's Tuam they mean? 

yes I think that were they mean

[Horsetan]

On 20/1/2023 at 10:36 AM, Colin R said:

....

There are the 6 Spence built narrow gauge Guinness locomotives residing in museums but there is a 7th that survived into private preservation.  From various sources it seems the locomotive (likely #21) was acquired by a Guinness employee in 1975 in rather derelict condition. According to uklocos.com it is residing near the town of Taum in Ireland.  There are 2 updates, one from 2006 and another from 2012 with the  letters “dsm” which I’m guessing means dismantled.  Also, a number of years ago I came across a site that lists railway items that had been sold at auction and it showed show the number plate for #21  

I have scoured the internet but have not come across any photos of this locomotive in its private ownership.  Since there have been sightings of the beast it would seem someone must have photos of it. Also, does anyone know its current status?

It is owned by one Gary Skelton?

Gary Skelton would probably be the descendant of the Guinness employee who bought no.21, which was withdrawn as long ago as 1959. Given the state it was in back then, I'm not sure that Mr, Skelton had any real plans to restore it - rather it was more of a keepsake to remind him of his workplace.

Private collections are exactly that - not for the general public or the internet to see. If no.21 is dismantled or scrapped, we're not going to be able to see that either.

[Colin R]

3 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Gary Skelton would probably be the descendant of the Guinness employee who bought no.21, which was withdrawn as long ago as 1959. Given the state it was in back then, I'm not sure that Mr, Skelton had any real plans to restore it - rather it was more of a keepsake to remind him of his workplace.

Private collections are exactly that - not for the general public or the internet to see. If no.21 is dismantled or scrapped, we're not going to be able to see that either.

 Yes you are right it will be up to the owner what happen to it and I live in hope that one day someone will be in the right place at the right time to see that happen.  

[Niles]

Its number escapes me but the Cavan & Leitrim have one of the Spence locos in the workshop at Dromod, some exciting plans for it too I believe...

[minister_for_hardship]

Seems a shame that a brewery not short of a few bob, a turnover of 2 billion, wouldn't restore one to working order as an attraction at St James' Gate.

Or one of the barges.

[Galteemore]

Yes, it’s odd, given that, unusually for an industrial railway, it always had a tourist dimension in its heyday. 

[Galteemore]

5 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes, it’s odd, given that, unusually for an industrial railway, it always had a tourist dimension in its heyday. 

 

[murrayec]

A chap- Jay Kovac posted this on fb recently, its 1:13.7 scale live steam and runs on gas

Stunning model.

There is a video of it running on fb also;- Irish Garden Railways

Eoin

[Galteemore]

Commercially available from Regner…..https://www.gardenrailways.co.uk/regner-255901-guinness-no12.html

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, Niles said:

Its number escapes me but the Cavan & Leitrim have one of the Spence locos in the workshop at Dromod, some exciting plans for it too I believe...

That's probably no.15. It doesn't have a boiler, as that was pinched for use on no.22

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Seems a shame that a brewery not short of a few bob, a turnover of 2 billion, wouldn't restore one to working order as an attraction at St James' Gate....

There's not a lot of the brewery infrastructure left for a restored engine to run on and, with a gauge of 1ft 10in, I'm not sure there are other preserved lines that would host it.

[Broithe]

https://stradballyrailway.webs.com/locomotives.htm says No 15 is in Stradbally.

"William Spence 0-4-0 1ft 10 gauge Tank engine No 15.

The Irish Steam Preservation Societies original Steam Locomotive. It was one of 18 built to serve in the extensive 1ft 10 gauge railway in the Guinness Brewery at St James' Gate, Dublin. She was the last of the 3 strong batch to be delivered in 1895, built by William Spence of the Cork Street Foundry and Engineering Works in Dublin. She despite her size was a very powerful engine, having 2,900 lbs of Tractive effort, just under that of a Bord Na Mona Ruston and Hornsby Diesel.


The Unusual Design came about because of the Failures with the previous designs of Conventional locomotives that were in Service, usually related to dirt getting into parts on the motion. The New design, the work of Dublin born Samuel Geoeghan who served in the great Doncaster Locomotive Works in England cured these faults by mounting the cylinders on top of the boiler and this eased maintenance in the small confines of the the line.
These engines also worked 5ft 3in tracks with use of an adaptor wagon, called "Haulage Wagons", on a line was built between St James' Gate and Kingsbridge Station(now Heuston). They were well able for the work, being able to move 13 broad gauge wagons unassisted.
They were finally displaced by Diesels in the 1950s and we received No 15 in 1966, which was steamed and mounted on blocks, acted as a Sentinel on the gate of the Rally that year. Over the next two years No 15 ran a public Service along a 50 yard stretch of track with several small trucks which also came from the Guinness Factory, one of which was preserved along with the engine in the Museum.
She was replaced when No 2 became available for purchase and because she wasn't suitable for the line's tough gradients and the track played havoc with the tramway style wheels. She has remained in the Museum since, all that would be required to restore her to working order is a retube, oil to free up the cylinders and regulator gland and re-lathe the wheels.
It would be possible for this locomotive being restored to a steamable condition but it would have to run on a separate line or to build a 3ft adaptor wagon, similar to what the locomotive was originaly built for but for the Narrower 3ft Stradbally gauge.
There is some controversy about her true identity. Most railways identified Locomotives by their frames, where as Guinness went by the boilers. No 15 currently carries the Boiler of No 22, now preserved in the Cavan and Leitrim railway which is missing both a boiler and cylinders.
Other survivers include her "Batch Sister" No 13, currently in the Tywyn Wharf Station Museum in Wales. No 17 preserved at St James' Gate along with one of the Planet diesel Replacments. And No 23, along with an Adaptor Wagon in the Brockham Museum in Surrey. No 20 currently resides in The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in Cultra, Belfast.

No.15 can be viewed at Stradbally Steam Museum a short distance from the Railway Station at Stradbally. "

[Horsetan]

41 minutes ago, Broithe said:

https://stradballyrailway.webs.com/locomotives.htm says No 15 is in Stradbally.

"William Spence 0-4-0 1ft 10 gauge Tank engine No 15.

The Irish Steam Preservation Societies original Steam Locomotive. It was one of 18 built to serve in the extensive 1ft 10 gauge railway in the Guinness Brewery at St James' Gate, Dublin. She was the last of the 3 strong batch to be delivered in 1895, built by William Spence of the Cork Street Foundry and Engineering Works in Dublin. She despite her size was a very powerful engine, having 2,900 lbs of Tractive effort, just under that of a Bord Na Mona Ruston and Hornsby Diesel.


The Unusual Design came about because of the Failures with the previous designs of Conventional locomotives that were in Service, usually related to dirt getting into parts on the motion. The New design, the work of Dublin born Samuel Geoeghan who served in the great Doncaster Locomotive Works in England cured these faults by mounting the cylinders on top of the boiler and this eased maintenance in the small confines of the the line.
These engines also worked 5ft 3in tracks with use of an adaptor wagon, called "Haulage Wagons", on a line was built between St James' Gate and Kingsbridge Station(now Heuston). They were well able for the work, being able to move 13 broad gauge wagons unassisted.
They were finally displaced by Diesels in the 1950s and we received No 15 in 1966, which was steamed and mounted on blocks, acted as a Sentinel on the gate of the Rally that year. Over the next two years No 15 ran a public Service along a 50 yard stretch of track with several small trucks which also came from the Guinness Factory, one of which was preserved along with the engine in the Museum.
She was replaced when No 2 became available for purchase and because she wasn't suitable for the line's tough gradients and the track played havoc with the tramway style wheels. She has remained in the Museum since, all that would be required to restore her to working order is a retube, oil to free up the cylinders and regulator gland and re-lathe the wheels.
It would be possible for this locomotive being restored to a steamable condition but it would have to run on a separate line or to build a 3ft adaptor wagon, similar to what the locomotive was originaly built for but for the Narrower 3ft Stradbally gauge.
There is some controversy about her true identity. Most railways identified Locomotives by their frames, where as Guinness went by the boilers. No 15 currently carries the Boiler of No 22, now preserved in the Cavan and Leitrim railway which is missing both a boiler and cylinders.
Other survivers include her "Batch Sister" No 13, currently in the Tywyn Wharf Station Museum in Wales. No 17 preserved at St James' Gate along with one of the Planet diesel Replacments. And No 23, along with an Adaptor Wagon in the Brockham Museum in Surrey. No 20 currently resides in The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in Cultra, Belfast.

No.15 can be viewed at Stradbally Steam Museum a short distance from the Railway Station at Stradbally. "

Interestingly, at least one book "Ireland's Largest Industrial Railway" (by Hugh Oram) has it the other way around, with boilerless no.15 being at Dromod, and no.22 being at Stradbally.

[jhb171achill]

I’d love to see the Guinness loco at Whitehead restored to this, its original livery! They were a dark olive green, a bit darker than what Stradbally has, but not massively different.

[hurricanemk1c]

10 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Interestingly, at least one book "Ireland's Largest Industrial Railway" (by Hugh Oram) has it the other way around, with boilerless no.15 being at Dromod, and no.22 being at Stradbally.

Frames and boilers had different numbers in the same series, think Guinness actually numbered the locos by boiler rather than frame just to confuse everyone!

[hurricanemk1c]

20 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Seems a shame that a brewery not short of a few bob, a turnover of 2 billion, wouldn't restore one to working order as an attraction at St James' Gate.

Or one of the barges.

Lot more than just that, as the gauge is over 350mm would have to meet the full CRR requirements (for a loco have a look at document CRR-036A). Restoring it would be the simple part, everything else around it wouldn't be and probably not worth it when there's currently two heritage railways with steam, and more on the horizon

[skinner75]

Is there one of the transfer wagons (or narrow to 5'3 gauge) still in existence?

[Colin R]

1 hour ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Lot more than just that, as the gauge is over 350mm would have to meet the full CRR requirements (for a loco have a look at document CRR-036A). Restoring it would be the simple part, everything else around it wouldn't be and probably not worth it when there's currently two heritage railways with steam, and more on the horizon

Hi do you have a link for the CRR requirements thanks

Colin 

[Broithe]

8 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Is there one of the transfer wagons (or narrow to 5'3 gauge) still in existence?

The Stradbally item above says that there's one at the Brockham Museum in Surrey. I can find a picture of the loco they have, but nothing of the adaptor.

[Colin R]

Here is a link that might help about halfway down

https://www.amberleynarrowgauge.co.uk/our-locos.htm

 

[minister_for_hardship]

3 hours ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Lot more than just that, as the gauge is over 350mm would have to meet the full CRR requirements (for a loco have a look at document CRR-036A). Restoring it would be the simple part, everything else around it wouldn't be and probably not worth it when there's currently two heritage railways with steam, and more on the horizon

Both railways are pretty remote from Dublin, and the main tourist trails, to be fair.

[Niles]

Not necessary, Dromod is right beside the Station and accessible off the M4. Similarly Stradbally is just over an hour or so's drive from Dublin (not sure if there's still a bus but someone will know).

[Westcorkrailway]

47 minutes ago, Niles said:

Not necessary, Dromod is right beside the Station and accessible off the M4. Similarly Stradbally is just over an hour or so's drive from Dublin (not sure if there's still a bus but someone will know).

Stradbally is one stop from portlaoise. On one of the bus services. So take the train to portlaoise from Dublin or cork 

[Flying Snail]

19 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Stradbally is one stop from portlaoise. On one of the bus services. So take the train to portlaoise from Dublin or cork 

Yep, ... I wouldn't call Stradbally remote. Stradbally is on the N80 and 15 minutes from Junction 15 on the M7. 70,000 make it down to the Electric Picnic every year, and over 200,000 showed up to Ratheniska (the next parish over) in September for the Ploughing Championships. Unfortunately, what is fair to say is that public transport from Portlaoise to Stradbally isn't great but as its about a 10km trip taxis are an option.

[Horsetan]

19 hours ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Lot more than just that, as the gauge is over 350mm would have to meet the full CRR requirements (for a loco have a look at document CRR-036A). Restoring it would be the simple part, everything else around it wouldn't be and probably not worth it when there's currently two heritage railways with steam, and more on the horizon

Neither of them are 1'10" gauge anyway

[DoctorPan]

18 hours ago, Colin R said:

Hi do you have a link for the CRR requirements thanks

Colin 

Link to 036a itself: https://www.crr.ie/assets/files/pdf/crrg036a.pdf 

 

The rest of the CRR's guidelines can be found  here: https://www.crr.ie/publications/guidelines/

[hurricanemk1c]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

Neither of them are 1'10" gauge anyway

I was more pointing out about Guinness starting up their railway again, which is covered under the same law as any railway above 350mm gauge (Guinness being approx 560mm). It's a business decision, Diageo couldn't care less about the distance between the rails!

[Colin R]

Another photo for you