Possible Warning about Murphy Models Counterfeit Goods

[Horsetan]

5 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

....would it be a good idea in future for Murphy Models to collect any seconds unfit for sale, and strip them for parts for warranty jobs?

I'm sure people would buy the parts from Paddy, bodies, chassis, bogies, motors, PCB's, you name it....

I suspect the last thing Paddy wants is a room full of random spares sitting there potentially beyond his retirement age.

[DJ Dangerous]

37 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I suspect the last thing Paddy wants is a room full of random spares sitting there potentially beyond his retirement age.

 

Surely he already has that to cover warranty jobs?

If they are unnecessary and / or don't sell over the course of the warranty period, he can bin them himself, and knows that nobody can put the stuff up for sale.

[DiveController]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:03 AM, DJ Dangerous said:

 

It doesn't tell you how to identify the fakes!

So, how does one know?

The Dapol announcement is tagged as "O Gauge" so is it only O Gauge fakes?

Model Railway Emporium on eBay are UK based, selling brand new 121's, yet are not listed as an authorised distributor on the Murphy Models website.

Are they selling stolen products or fakes?

 

 

This thread was started by Wrenneire with the iteration of intended prosecution by MM of the buyer of a stolen MM locomotive. I haven’t seen anything on Murphy Models website warning of stolen or fake locomotives so their existence at this point and any potential prosecution is hearsay and no more. The onus would be on MM to prove the person is in receipt of stolen property in every single case, not on the purchaser. In consideration that the manufacturer would have had to take reasonable steps to secure it own moulds and products and warn of any failings in that regard, and not provided a serial number or any means where a non-expert customer could reasonably identify a fake or stolen product, that can be purchased by distance selling, a successful prosecution is not going to happen. Anyone with a background in law or law enforcement would be aware that concealment is an exception to Caveat Emptor. 

Other than official distributors , these products can be purchased and resold at the retail and private level. I’m wondering now if Murphy models were to pursue what has been threatened (in hearsay) whether they might also deny a warranty claim, not only that but prosecute the customer instead. The MM website does not state what is required for warranty not even a receipt. Except for the USA, it does not list any official distributors, but stockists (which still includes Hattons).

Should we even purchase these locos for fear of prosecution or warranty denial or both? While any potential theft of the locos is reprehensible, I’m not sure that threatening your client base with either is a wise business strategy but we will see what happens in an official statement when  and if that comes I guess. 

[BosKonay]

16 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How do IRM avoid this happening with their products?

As an aside, would it be a good idea in future for Murphy Models to collect any seconds unfit for sale, and strip them for parts for warranty jobs?

I'm sure people would buy the parts from Paddy, bodies, chassis, bogies, motors, PCB's, you name it.

It would stop this from happening, and bring in more money / reduce costs for Murphy Models.

Was that downvote for me or for Dapol, @BosKonay?

We maintain an excellent relationship with our factories, don’t use any ‘agents’ or ‘middlemen’, have staff on the ground and in Hong Kong who work for us and order in our spares and warranty parts as a separate transaction with the factory. There are also no ‘seconds’ as any mess ups in painting or printing are immediately destroyed and recycled or any bad parts are never used for assembly in the first place. In one case in 9 years a factory overproduced slightly due to an error but we were duly informed and simply bought the overrun. 

[DJ Dangerous]

37 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

We maintain an excellent relationship with our factories, don’t use any ‘agents’ or ‘middlemen’, have staff on the ground and in Hong Kong who work for us and order in our spares and warranty parts as a separate transaction with the factory. There are also no ‘seconds’ as any mess ups in painting or printing are immediately destroyed and recycled or any bad parts are never used for assembly in the first place. In one case in 9 years a factory overproduced slightly due to an error but we were duly informed and simply bought the overrun. 

 

It sounds like IRM have invested a lot in a very secure infrastructure, if that's the correct word for it.

Maybe Murphy Models are not in a position to create such secure systems, but as @DiveController so eloquently put it, threatening their own client base as a result, probably isn't the nicest way of dealing with the fallout.

There must be a solution out there!

[spudfan]

This is not just a few locomotives. Packaging has to be ordered in to co ordinate with the production of the models. Usually with dodgy models it is the packaging that is the give away, just not up to the same standard. You can have as many eyes on the shop floor as you want but they will not have access to all parts of the factory. They can be told that the part over there is out of bounds as another manufacturer of model trains is using that and they do not want the opposition to see what is going on.

Serial numbers or quality stickers put on over here are not the answer. Serial numbers can be made up and quality control stickers can be copied once seen.

These models could be produced without using the Murphy Model brand by simply making a few miniscule changes to the model. A milimeter off here or there will change it so that it is not the exact same as Murphy Models. Any model produced by more than one manufacturer will have slight differences and there will be internet pages discussing which is the more accurate model.

As far as I can see the issue here is these models being sold under the Murphy Models brand name but are not being recognised  by Murphy Models as they have not passed through their hands. They have gone directly from A to C bypassing B.

Everything about these models including the packaging could be top notch, it is just that they are out side of the official chain. If you got one you would have no way of knowing. 

Like I said earlier if they changed the name and made a few miniscule changes to the models themselves they would be seen as an alternative to the Murphy Models brand.

Mr Murphy put a lot of time and effort including finances into his brand and products and wants to protect them and not see someone else making a profit from his efforts.

He got what was contracted for, each one sold out but these are outside his remit. A lot of people buying these probably will not be aware of the lack of official provenence of these models and will take them at face value.  No manufacturer can guarantee that this will not happen to them. Look at the carparts industry. They are much bigger players than toy train manufacturers yet the market place is rife with non genuine parts coming in genuine boxes.

I sympatise with Paddy Murphy but I do not think he will be able to stamp this out.

Edited April 7 by spudfan

[Mayner]

As far as I remember IRM ordered the initial order of Ballast Wagons through an established UK "Commissioner" or agent, but ended up having to deal directly with the Chinese Factory because of problems with their agent.  In the end it was simpler and more effective to deal directly with the Chinese factory (whose staff speak English) by phone from Ireland than working with middle men in the UK and China.

Going back to Murphy Models 'excess production" being flogged on e-Bay  in common with standard manufacturing process the Chinese model train factories manufacture above the quantity ordered by MM to cover manufacturing defects and returns, on an order of 1000 items you could potentially be looking at an additional 50-100 items based on the factories QA system. These 50-100 additional models may be mint boxed as opposed to seconds.

It looks suspiciously like the factory held on the the 'additional' production for a couple of years to cover potential warranty claims before selling the 'surplus" to an on-line Trader.

The case of the Cravens being flogged by a Spanish on-line Trader may be a case of a stock clearance by a large retailer. A bit like Palitoy/GMR in the 1980s MM may have over estimated demand for the Craven Coaches resulting in retailers ending up with slow selling stock, while ahead of Hornby in terms of detail Palitoy/General Mills basically flooded the UK market with slow selling locos and stock in the early 80s which took several years to clear.

Although I did not buy an 071 or Cravens when originally introduced I managed to pick up an 071 and several Cravens on special offer well below the RRP from Marks Models several years after their initial release.

Similarly MM effectively had a 'clearance sale" of Craven and MK2 Stock on the IRM Website possibly to free working capital and space in the warehouse for the arrival of the 121s, reinforces that the 'Spanish Cravens" may have been a retailer clearing stock as opposed to a Chinese factory holding stock to 'age" taking up space and eating up working capital

Edited April 7 by Mayner

[spudfan]

I checked out the EBAY link to these locos and I got a message from EBAY saying the seller had dropped the price for 48 hours to £150. Must not be shifting well. The listing still has the "or best offer" tag.

[K801]

Buy your models thru IRM, support the lads and get great service

[Colin_McLeod]

I was under the impression that the 121s sold out years ago and the only way to get one is to buy second hand (at prices north of €300).

So, unless Murphy Models have some to sell, how are they losing out?  I suppose it all depends on the wording of their contract with the factory re excess production and intellectual property matters.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 6/4/2024 at 12:47 AM, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Surely he already has that to cover warranty jobs?

If they are unnecessary and / or don't sell over the course of the warranty period, he can bin them himself, and knows that nobody can put the stuff up for sale.

Or he could do what IRM did with the sale of Diki Taras.

[Ironroad]

31 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I was under the impression that the 121s sold out years ago and the only way to get one is to buy second hand (at prices north of €300).

So, unless Murphy Models have some to sell, how are they losing out?  I suppose it all depends on the wording of their contract with the factory re excess production and intellectual property matters.

He's losing out because what is happening is theft of his intellectual property. It negates the demand for reruns and threatens the viability of his business.  There is no way that a factory is entitled to do as it likes with excess production of items it does not own the rights to and considering his experience with the Lima 201s I'd be very surprised if Paddy did not cover that in any contract..

 

Edited April 10 by Ironroad
typo

[Colin_McLeod]

39 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

I'd be very surprised if Paddy did not cover that in any contract

I agree.  That reinforces that the correct thing for Paddy to do us take action against the factory. 

I suppose he can claim for the loss of gross profit on each loco.  That would be a figure that Paddy could substantiate.

[Sean]

Didnt we have a similar sort of discussion a couple of years ago when some chinese 201's appeared on ebay?

 

I was new at the time

[BosKonay]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I agree.  That reinforces that the correct thing for Paddy to do us take action against the factory. 

I suppose he can claim for the loss of gross profit on each loco.  That would be a figure that Paddy could substantiate.

Only if anyone has a clue how many locos are in question and where they originated 

[Sean]

14 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Only if anyone has a clue how many locos are in question and where they originated 

seems to be multiple sellers with multiples of each item in stock

[spudfan]

I do not think Paddy Murphy would have the resources to follow this up. It is not right what is happening but bigger companies have tried to stamp out similar actions and have failed.

[K801]

As someone in production and logistics I'll attempt to try explain this a different way. Normally when a large run of an item is manufactured,  a good 10% or more extra can be made as "attic stock" for a ton of legit reasons from first runs to try a new mold to tweaks and adjustments on the assembly line. Now, this attic stock costs money in labor, materials, transport, utilities and storage.  It is possible after a certain amount of time, these items are sold off to recoup these costs. Now, in this case weather they were first offered to MM, or if its in a contract or if the factory does what it likes who knows, but the best customers are always returning customers and if the factory went rogue, they would loose repeat business. I suspect there is a middle man in here somewhere who probably purchased the excess stock and sold it off.  Unless there is a statement from MM ( whos website is rarely updated) its just drama, rumour and gossip, but I honestly would not buy a model from a shady source. 

[Ironroad]

4 hours ago, K801 said:

As someone in production and logistics I'll attempt to try explain this a different way. Normally when a large run of an item is manufactured,  a good 10% or more extra can be made as "attic stock" for a ton of legit reasons from first runs to try a new mold to tweaks and adjustments on the assembly line. Now, this attic stock costs money in labor, materials, transport, utilities and storage.  It is possible after a certain amount of time, these items are sold off to recoup these costs. Now, in this case weather they were first offered to MM, or if its in a contract or if the factory does what it likes who knows, but the best customers are always returning customers and if the factory went rogue, they would loose repeat business. I suspect there is a middle man in here somewhere who probably purchased the excess stock and sold it off.  Unless there is a statement from MM ( whos website is rarely updated) its just drama, rumour and gossip, but I honestly would not buy a model from a shady source. 

The cost of "attic stock" as you call it is something that should and is normally factored into the full cost of production and as such that cost is recouped in the selling price of the delivered order. In effect any money recovered subsequently from such stock is 100% profit. 

[Der Rechtsanwalt]

When protecting intellectual property particularly when it comes to illegal sales on Facebook or eBay, the owner of the IP will need to get what is known as a Norwich Pharmacal Order in the High Court. Meta, Alphabet and eBay won't give out details of those who are selling on their platforms without one. The GDPR implications are too great for them. To get the order you will also need to engage a specialist company to carry out test purchases and prepare a report which can exhibited to any grounding affidavit. The application is made on notice to the platform selling the goods. Costs may or may not be awarded in these cases. Once the order is secured, the platform will hand over the details of the individual sellers. However, this is only the first step in the process as any further Irish Court Order to 'cease and desist' or 'deliver up' will have no effect outside the jurisdiction, unless the seller is based in the EU. The owner of the IP will probably have to take the matter further and issue proceedings in China or make a complaint to the Chinese authorities.

There are very few legal firms specialising in this kind of practice and they generally charge about €450 an hour plus VAT. The Norwich Pharmacal Order could cost as much €20,000. 

The other option is to warn potential customers through a press statement that these items are defects or are sold unlawfully and will not have any manufacturer warranty. 

Generally, only very large companies such as well know clothing brands that have much more to lose take cases like this. In short the cost is just too high compared to the benefit gained. 

One final option for Murphy's Models is to complain to the Chinese manufacturer about the loses and seek some sort of discount on the next run of models. Ryanair have been known to seek this kind of compensation from Boeing over the 737-Max delays.

However, this kind of loss to the brand is I'm afraid the cost of doing business. 

Edited July 20 by Der Rechtsanwalt

[DJ Dangerous]

6 hours ago, Der Rechtsanwalt said:

When protecting intellectual property particularly when it comes to illegal sales on Facebook or eBay, the owner of the IP will need to get what is known as a Norwich Pharmacal Order in the High Court. Meta, Alphabet and eBay won't give out details of those who are selling on their platforms without one. The GDPR implications are too great for them. To get the order you will also need to engage a specialist company to carry out test purchases and prepare a report which can exhibited to any grounding affidavit. The application is made on notice to the platform selling the goods. Costs may or may not be awarded in these cases. Once the order is secured, the platform will hand over the details of the individual sellers. However, this is only the first step in the process as any further Irish Court Order to 'cease and desist' or 'deliver up' will have no effect outside the jurisdiction, unless the seller is based in the EU. The owner of the IP will probably have to take the matter further and issue proceedings in China or make a complaint to the Chinese authorities.

There are very few legal firms specialising in this kind of practice and they generally charge about €450 an hour plus VAT. The Norwich Pharmacal Order could cost as much €20,000. 

The other option is to warn potential customers through a press statement that these items are defects or are sold unlawfully and will not have any manufacturer warranty. 

Generally, only very large companies such as well know clothing brands that have much more to lose take cases like this. In short the cost is just too high compared to the benefit gained. 

One final option for Murphy's Models is to complain to the Chinese manufacturer about the loses and seek some sort of discount on the next run of models. Ryanair have been known to seek this kind of compensation from Boeing over the 737-Max delays.

However, this kind of loss to the brand is I'm afraid the cost of doing business. 

 

So, it would seem that the threats made towards Murphy Models' own customer base are relatively empty.

For anybody doubting the veracity of @Der Rechtsanwalt's post, I suggest you run his / her username through a translator!

[WRENNEIRE]

Solicitor?

[derek]

11 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Solicitor?

yep

[Robert Shrives]

For a test I offered £100 for one of the 121s and had it promptly refused !  

 

Robert 

[DJ Dangerous]

4 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

For a test I offered £100 for one of the 121s and had it promptly refused !  

 

Robert 

 

Did the same and the seller sent me a counter-offer, so they're definitely actually selling the locos.

Declined the counter-offer and heard no more, so they're not desperate to shift them.

[K801]

Has there been any statement from PM himself?