Vandalism at Downpatrick

[Wexford70]

Shocking to see.

As if the railway has not enough challenges.

'Wanton vandalism' to train carriages at Co Down museum (rte.ie)

 

"It was reported that entry had been gained to the site at Market Street and a number of historical carriages had been damaged," a PSNI statement said.

Edited September 23 by Wexford70

[Horsetan]

Feralism is one of few consistent growth areas at the moment.

[jhb171achill]

I’ll refrain from commenting, as I’d be banned from the internet if I was to suggest what I would like to see happening to the perpetrators. Suffice to say, it would make exceptionally bloodthirsty reading.

They’ve apprehended one, aged 16. Let us hope they don’t just give him a slap on the wrist due to his youth.

Great sympathies to the DCDR folks in facing yet ANOTHER disaster.

 

[LNERW1]

People like this don’t understand putting work into anything. For all my waffle about disturbed teens and acting out etc. this is pointless and I just don’t see why you’d bother if not to just be a pain. I suppose we’re lucky it’s just broken glass and not fire like has happened recently on, IIIRC, the Bo’Ness and Kinneil. I wish I had money to donate to DCDR to help.

[minister_for_hardship]

I don't know what the law is like up in NI when "pups" are caught, but it's fairly lenient down here.

Minors, solicitor lay out a sob story, weren't hugged enough when toddlers, etc.

Alright don't do it again you little scamp.

[Flying Snail]

Thankfully, the CCTV footage is very clear so I would be confident they'll all be identified. After that? Well, we'll see what happens.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I don't know what the law is like up in NI when "pups" are caught, but it's fairly lenient down here.

Minors, solicitor lay out a sob story, weren't hugged enough when toddlers, etc.

Alright don't do it again you little scamp.

That’s exactly what happens in the north too.

”Poor fella came from a broken home”

”He didn’t realise that bricks break glass”

”He’s studying hard at college”

Verdict: Guilty! Fined €10, if he has it; if not, sure lookit, never worry….

[Mayner]

While I have sympathy for the damaged and distress caused by the vandalism at Downpatrick, I find the hang them flog them reaction towards the perpetrators on this newsgroup distasteful. 

Most developed countries are currently experiencing a significant youth mental health crisis, both Northern Ireland and New Zealand have a significantly higher (almost double) the youth suicide rate of the Republic. (NI 17.8, NZ 19, ROI 10, per 100,000 people 2020).

Perhaps the 16 year old apprehended simply comitted wanton vandalism or has a mental health problem, but what about parental responsibility both for the upbringing of their child and taking responsibility for their actions?

My Dad had a story of his interactions with the 'locals" while on picket duty in Dublins Docklands during the "Maintenance Mens Strike" of the late 60s, casual work for Dockers and Carters had more or less dried up and a lot of people were literally living on their wits' One an old guy used to bum cigarettes from the strikers and Dad and his mates asked how he managed to survive 'Its like this if I see a hall door open in he flats and a Radio on the table, Ill take it and sell it in Talbot Street in a couple of minutes"  the other incident was a group of Urchins in 'hand me down" clothing were hanging out walking up and down on the picket line with the strikers while two of their mates robbed some 'cans of paint" from the back of Dad's car (he had filled the cans with rubbish to dump and the Urchins helped out. Its likely that 55 years later the grandchildren of the urchins have graduated to more serious and profitable crime. No doubt similar conditions apply in parts of Northern Ireland, as they do in New Zealand and other 'post industrial countries"

A high proportion of the people that end up before the Justice system and are convicted have quite serious untreated mental health conditions. (inmates in prisons in Northern Ireland have a 25% higher prevelence of mental health problems than in England)

I have skin in the game having worked with the justice system in Ireland and NZ and as the parent of a teenager witth a mental health problem.

I suppose the question to be asked is whether menal health or the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism at Downpatrick and if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

There is an old African saying 'that it takes a village to raise a child" which applies in the wider context of todays complex societies as a traditional tribal society.

I remember a Maori 'Auntie" (formidible older woman) taking a group of troublesome city teenagers under her wing (and scaring the life out of them) by teaching them some 'life skills" by taking them out to sea on a small boat, where they learned to fish and catch fresh  Kai (food) for their families and started them on the right path.

Possible 'community work" as we call it in NZ where the perpetrator could be sentenced to work on the DCDR, p.w. work on our local 'hertiage railway" for the past 20 or so years has been carried out by non-violent offenders sentenced to "community work", the Society Members generally becoming too old and decrepit to carry out heavy physical work.

Edited September 25 by Mayner

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

That’s exactly what happens in the north too.

”Poor fella came from a broken home”

”He didn’t realise that bricks break glass”

”He’s studying hard at college”

Verdict: Guilty! Fined €10, if he has it; if not, sure lookit, never worry….

To be fair, like Britain, Ireland also has a proud tradition of vandalism and arson. It's kind of ingrained, and any target is fair game, whether it's a heritage railway or migrants.

[Galteemore]

Interesting to see that it was not always thus. Pictures of Manorhamilton 2 years post closure show the yard full of carriages with every window intact. One wonders, without venturing into simplistic truisms, just how that could happen. After all, it’s not as if the youths of late 50s Leitrim had much to entertain them. 

[Horsetan]

24 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

..... After all, it’s not as if the youths of late 50s Leitrim had much to entertain them. 

No, but the Church probably made sure of that back then

[jhb171achill]

42 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Interesting to see that it was not always thus. Pictures of Manorhamilton 2 years post closure show the yard full of carriages with every window intact. One wonders, without venturing into simplistic truisms, just how that could happen. After all, it’s not as if the youths of late 50s Leitrim had much to entertain them. 

Very true; and that very fact blows right out of the water any claim the perpetrators might have as to boredom as motivation.

The fact that they put diesel all over the floor of a carriage, and also tried to break into the building, I’d exceptionally worrying too.

Again, my thoughts as to suitable punishment are far too extreme to put into print.

[Horsetan]

51 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

No, but the Church probably made sure of that back then

....and I'm reminded that there were Church homes for "troubled" people, miserable though these were.

[skinner75]

Scumbag's gonna scumbag...

[Wexford70]

Proper secure indoor storage would likely help. Cost is the issue but the north has a better track history of preserving industrial heritage than we do down south. 

[LNERW1]

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

While I have sympathy for the damaged and distress caused by the vandalism at Downpatrick, I find the hang them flog them reaction towards the perpetrators on this newsgroup distasteful. 

Most developed countries are currently experiencing a significant youth mental health crisis, both Northern Ireland and New Zealand have a significantly higher (almost double) the youth suicide rate of the Republic. (NI 17.8, NZ 19, ROI 10, per 100,000 people 2020).

Perhaps the 16 year old apprehended simply comitted wanton vandalism or has a mental health problem, but what about parental responsibility both for the upbringing of their child and taking responsibility for their actions?

My Dad had a story of his interactions with the 'locals" while on picket duty in Dublins Docklands during the "Maintenance Mens Strike" of the late 60s, casual work for Dockers and Carters had more or less dried up and a lot of people were literally living on their wits' One an old guy used to bum cigarettes from the strikers and Dad and his mates asked how he managed to survive 'Its like this if I see a hall door open in he flats and a Radio on the table, Ill take it and sell it in Talbot Street in a couple of minutes"  the other incident was a group of Urchins in 'hand me down" clothing were hanging out walking up and down on the picket line with the strikers while two of their mates robbed some 'cans of paint" from the back of Dad's car (he had filled the cans with rubbish to dump and the Urchins helped out. Its likely that 55 years later the grandchildren of the urchins have graduated to more serious and profitable crime. No doubt similar conditions apply in parts of Northern Ireland, as they do in New Zealand and other 'post industrial countries"

A high proportion of the people that end up before the Justice system and are convicted have quite serious untreated mental health conditions. (inmates in prisons in Northern Ireland have a 25% higher prevelence of mental health problems than in England)

I have skin in the game having worked with the justice system in Ireland and NZ and as the parent of a teenager witth a mental health problem.

I suppose the question to be asked is whether menal health or the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism at Downpatrick and if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

There is an old African saying 'that it takes a village to raise a child" which applies in the wider context of todays complex societies as a traditional tribal society.

I remember a Maori 'Auntie" (formidible older woman) taking a group of troublesome city teenagers under her wing (and scaring the life out of them) by teaching them some 'life skills" by taking them out to sea on a small boat, where they learned to fish and catch fresh  Kai (food) for their families and started them on the right path.

Possible 'community work" as we call it in NZ where the perpetrator could be sentenced to work on the DCDR, p.w. work on our local 'hertiage railway" for the past 20 or so years has been carried out by non-violent offenders sentenced to "community work", the Society Members generally becoming too old and decrepit to carry out heavy physical work.

I understand all of this. Being an adolescent in this day and age sucks, and I know because I turned 14 on Sunday. It’s hard not to be angry with how much this happens, but it’s harder not to be angry with how fucked-up it is that this is normal now, that this world has made this happen. This is due to society. But I think we can still be angry at the perpetrators. Nobody’s innocent here, the people who did it, the people who caused it and the people who are getting so angry about it, including me.

We all need to step back and see this could be partially our fault. Yes we need to make it harder for this to happen, yes we need to help people from getting to a place where they do this, yes we need to fix it, to punish them to a degree, to stop this environment that creates them from forming in the first place.

Be angry about it, you deserve to be. But also, sit down and think about why this happened. Think how you can help people who do this because they are lost and have no way to call out for that help. This isn’t black and white or a simple case of right or wrong. Think about this. The DCDR is a victim here, but maybe there are more victims in this situation.

Note: i retract my above short angry rant, you understand I’m sick of this happening now.

Edited September 25 by LNERW1

[David Holman]

My immediate thought is the usual one of perhaps the perpetrators might be chased by a couple of police dogs and the latter would be allowed to bite them somewhere painful. Numerous times.

 However, Mayner and LNERW1 are right - such things (wars included) ultimately have to solved by looking at and understanding the problems that created them in the first place. My teaching career was spent working in somewhat challenging communities and when you tried to understand why children behaved the way they did, there were always reasons. Trying to sort them was another matter of course. Broken homes, poverty, addiction, abuse - you name, we saw it, but trying to get support in place was another matter. There just wasn't the time, money or personnel to cope with it all.

 Sadly, little seems to have changed over the years, although thankfully there are still many good people out there doing their bit, so all power to their collective elbows.

 And thank goodness for things like model railways, this forum and the Repair Shop (to name but three), as antidotes to the ills of the world - though Peaky Blinders, Game of Thrones and Dad Army work for me too...

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

22 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I’ll refrain from commenting, as I’d be banned from the internet if I was to suggest what I would like to see happening to the perpetrators. Suffice to say, it would make exceptionally bloodthirsty reading.

They’ve apprehended one, aged 16. Let us hope they don’t just give him a slap on the wrist due to his youth.

Great sympathies to the DCDR folks in facing yet ANOTHER disaster.

 

Fully agree

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, David Holman said:

My immediate thought is the usual one of perhaps the perpetrators might be chased by a couple of police dogs and the latter would be allowed to bite them somewhere painful. Numerous times.

 However, Mayner and LNERW1 are right - such things (wars included) ultimately have to solved by looking at and understanding the problems that created them in the first place. My teaching career was spent working in somewhat challenging communities and when you tried to understand why children behaved the way they did, there were always reasons. Trying to sort them was another matter of course. Broken homes, poverty, addiction, abuse - you name, we saw it, but trying to get support in place was another matter. There just wasn't the time, money or personnel to cope with it all.

 Sadly, little seems to have changed over the years, although thankfully there are still many good people out there doing their bit, so all power to their collective elbows.

 And thank goodness for things like model railways, this forum and the Repair Shop (to name but three), as antidotes to the ills of the world - though Peaky Blinders, Game of Thrones and Dad Army work for me too...

The most striking thing I experienced working buiilding a "Community Centre" in a 'deprived" area of Dublin about 20 years ago was one evening seeing a toddler of 2-3 walking alone on a darkend street, what chance would a child have growing up in such an environment.

On the positive side there were some very good people from the local community working hard to improve the lot of the local community, but it was a hell of a struggle to overcome the difficulties and stigma attached with living in that particular neighbourhood both in terms of raising a family and earning an honest living. 

Government were pretty good at throwing money at the bricks and mortar stuff but hopeless at supporting and empowering communities with few notable exceptions such as Dublin Corporation social housing schemes of the 1930s and certain Inner City housing schemes of the late 70s/80s which helped re-build communities. 

[Noel]

On 24/9/2024 at 4:20 PM, Horsetan said:

Feralism is one of few consistent growth areas at the moment.

Yes it’s unfortunate that the UK and Ireland suffer a criminal, yob youth antisocial culture that is far less prevalent in more civilised European countries. Walk the streets of other European capitals late at night and you just don’t see such. Hopefully in time the rising tide of economic prosperity will raise all boats. None of us chose where we were born. 

[minister_for_hardship]

Carrot and stick. Give the required supports but at the same time there has to be a punishment of some sort, be that community service or similar. There can't be no consequences at all for acting the maggot.

[Horsetan]

43 minutes ago, Noel said:

Yes it’s unfortunate that the UK and Ireland suffer a criminal, yob youth antisocial culture that is far less prevalent in more civilised European countries. Walk the streets of other European capitals late at night and you just don’t see such. ...

This is probably not true of France, where the government long ago lost control of the Paris suburbs, and hasn't had much sway over much of Marseilles for decades.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 25/9/2024 at 8:47 AM, minister_for_hardship said:

I don't know what the law is like up in NI when "pups" are caught, but it's fairly lenient down here.

Minors, solicitor lay out a sob story, weren't hugged enough when toddlers, etc.

Alright don't do it again you little scamp.

I agree with you Minister.  Mayner appears to demonstrate your point.

I have read Mayner's post and am aware that some children have problems.

Still not an excuse for (a) causing vandalism or (b) being allowed to get away with it.

On 25/9/2024 at 11:42 AM, Mayner said:

While I have sympathy for the damaged and distress caused by the vandalism at Downpatrick, I find the hang them flog them reaction towards the perpetrators on this newsgroup distasteful. 

Most developed countries are currently experiencing a significant youth mental health crisis, both Northern Ireland and New Zealand have a significantly higher (almost double) the youth suicide rate of the Republic. (NI 17.8, NZ 19, ROI 10, per 100,000 people 2020).

Perhaps the 16 year old apprehended simply comitted wanton vandalism or has a mental health problem, but what about parental responsibility both for the upbringing of their child and taking responsibility for their actions?

My Dad had a story of his interactions with the 'locals" while on picket duty in Dublins Docklands during the "Maintenance Mens Strike" of the late 60s, casual work for Dockers and Carters had more or less dried up and a lot of people were literally living on their wits' One an old guy used to bum cigarettes from the strikers and Dad and his mates asked how he managed to survive 'Its like this if I see a hall door open in he flats and a Radio on the table, Ill take it and sell it in Talbot Street in a couple of minutes"  the other incident was a group of Urchins in 'hand me down" clothing were hanging out walking up and down on the picket line with the strikers while two of their mates robbed some 'cans of paint" from the back of Dad's car (he had filled the cans with rubbish to dump and the Urchins helped out. Its likely that 55 years later the grandchildren of the urchins have graduated to more serious and profitable crime. No doubt similar conditions apply in parts of Northern Ireland, as they do in New Zealand and other 'post industrial countries"

A high proportion of the people that end up before the Justice system and are convicted have quite serious untreated mental health conditions. (inmates in prisons in Northern Ireland have a 25% higher prevelence of mental health problems than in England)

I have skin in the game having worked with the justice system in Ireland and NZ and as the parent of a teenager witth a mental health problem.

I suppose the question to be asked is whether menal health or the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism at Downpatrick and if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

There is an old African saying 'that it takes a village to raise a child" which applies in the wider context of todays complex societies as a traditional tribal society.

I remember a Maori 'Auntie" (formidible older woman) taking a group of troublesome city teenagers under her wing (and scaring the life out of them) by teaching them some 'life skills" by taking them out to sea on a small boat, where they learned to fish and catch fresh  Kai (food) for their families and started them on the right path.

Possible 'community work" as we call it in NZ where the perpetrator could be sentenced to work on the DCDR, p.w. work on our local 'hertiage railway" for the past 20 or so years has been carried out by non-violent offenders sentenced to "community work", the Society Members generally becoming too old and decrepit to carry out heavy physical work.

 

Edited September 26 by Colin_McLeod
Correcting Autocorrect.

[Mayner]

The one thing that get me about this thread is that while there is plenty of talk about punishing the teenage perpetrator apart from myself no one has mentioned parental responsibility and potentially holding the parents of the teenager to account. In this part of the world a young person under 18 is still classed as a child. 

There is an oldsaying that the dog you own is the pup that you reared, what were the parents doing to monitor the childs behavior, the company he was keeping in the months, weeks days leading up to the vandalism at Downpatrick.

[David Holman]

 Agreed. Doesn't matter if it is one parent or two, same sex, extended family or whatever, as long as they look after their kids, they turn out alright. Unfortunately, when the parents are dysfunctional, this rule not only falls down, but becomes self perpetuating and breaking the cycle is so difficult without the right resources.

 

[irishrailways52]

what will society be in 50 years

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, irishrailways52 said:

what will society be in 50 years

Unfortunately, it was exactly the same fifty and sixty years ago. I watched a crowd of village idiots smashing windows in a derelict house nearby.

Go back earlier, and it wasn’t quite so bad, and there was zero graffiti either.

[Broithe]

11 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Unfortunately, it was exactly the same fifty and sixty years ago. I watched a crowd of village idiots smashing windows in a derelict house nearby.

Go back earlier, and it wasn’t quite so bad, and there was zero graffiti either.

Graffiti was a lot harder to accomplish sixty years ago.

Marker pens and spray cans made it a lot easier than carrying round a tin of paint and a brush. 

And chalk soon washed off.

Carving initials into a tree was about as much that was practical for for the uncommitted 'artist' to make a permanent mark.

[skinner75]

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Unfortunately, it was exactly the same fifty and sixty years ago. I watched a crowd of village idiots smashing windows in a derelict house nearby.

Go back earlier, and it wasn’t quite so bad, and there was zero graffiti either.

The Victorians had great craic writing their names in the pyramids etc!

[Broithe]

7 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

The Victorians had great craic writing their names in the pyramids etc!

If they'd been a bit smaller, they would be in the British Museum...

[Galteemore]

One of my college lecturers said you could judge the literacy rate of a society by how far the graffiti was off the ground…..

There’s some fascinating examples of 1950s graffiti in Keith Pirt’s Irish colour photos - including ‘God save Egypt’ chalked on an RT tank at Adelaide during the 1956 Suez crisis….

[skinner75]

4 hours ago, Broithe said:

If they'd been a bit smaller, they would be in the British Museum...

or 'the museum of other people's stuff' as it is also known

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, irishrailways52 said:

what will society be in 50 years

As the father of a 14 year society is not likely to be a lot different than its always been the continued struggle for survival facing lifes ups and downs. The majority of my childs friends/class mates are good kids from supportive families likely to grow into responsible function adults, a few manipulative and troublesome ones from disfunctional families, none could be considered to be from an economically deprived background.

The worrying thing is the explosion in mental health problems among adolesents and young adults in recent years, a number of our kids friends and class mates in New Zealand are also receiving treatment for mental health problems along with teen-young adult relatives in the States and New Zealand.

Growing up in the 60s we had the existential threat of the Bomb and Vietnam War (topic of conversation among grown-ups at family get togethers) but wern't otherwise facing an insecure future my father and uncles all had steady well paid jobs in the days before the Irish economic recessions of the 80s & 90s or serious worries about pollution of climate change. 

One of the biggest problems at the moment is that political parties have to appeal to the older more conservative sector of the electorate to get elected often offering simplistic solutions to complex problems like crime, and responding to climate change. 'Talking tough" on crime and people on welfare, rather than tackling the causes of crime and long term welfare dependency. Failing to consider the effects of climate change in infrastructure planning despite repeated problems with flooding in low lying inland and coastal areas during the past 20 years.

Unfortunately todays younger generation are likely to have lost their idealism and hope by the time they reach middle age just like 'My Generation!!!!!!!! 

Going back to Horsetans comment about Ireland's proud tradition of vandalism or perhaps a contempt for authority.

One of the best examples when the 'locals" completly dismantled some DSER coaches following a deliberate de-railment during the Civil War. The Coaches with the possible exception of the heavier elements of the ironwork had completly gone by the time it was safe to recover the remains of the train. Possibly a case of the locals liberating the material for their own use rather than mindless destruction.

Edited September 28 by Mayner

[Colin_McLeod]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

One of the best examples when the 'locals" completly dismantled some DSER coaches following a deliberate de-railment during the Civil War. The Coaches with the possible exception of the heavier elements of the ironwork had completly gone by the time it was safe to recover the remains of the train. Possibly a case of the locals liberating the material for their own use rather than mindless destruction.

A similar thing occurred when a Guinness train was derailed at Gorawood during the Troubles. By the time the railway staff were allowed in to recover the train all the barrels had disappeared.

[David Holman]

Shades of Whisky Galore...

When it came to dismantling the Red Wharf Bay branch on Anglesey, the contractors first had to replace the oak keys on the bull head track because the locals had pinched them for firewood.