"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

Some photos from Ernie and IRRS which don't shed much light on the colour of the lettering, but it's not red and looks more like eau-de-nil to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468545586

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468958785

Heating van has the end wording 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' in red, and I think the number may also be red. Very hard to tell.

On the other hand, there's a Colour-Rail shot FIE04801 showing silver heating van 3131 which has the number and GUARD in eau-de-nil. The end is not visible.

And this photo of Ernie's shows a green heating van with the 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' in red:

Composites definitely had red lettering, again a pic from Ernie (there are other photos in books which show this even more clearly):

[Horsetan]

On 17/1/2026 at 11:29 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Some of my time this week has been spent building a tin van from one of @Mayner's kits.

It's not yet complete but is starting to look the part and makes an interesting contrast to the old 6-wheel coach:

Another ebay purchase arrived this week - an old CIE document from Christmas 1959. This is what I would describe as a 'weekly operating notice' although it does not carry that title and it covers a 2-week period. 56 pages in total, it contains lots of detail about special trains, Christmas timetable alterations, even items of goods lost and found. 

The arrangements for livestock fairs are particularly interesting though I haven't quite decoded them all yet. Here's 2 of the 6 pages devoted to livestock traffic arrangements, both rail and road:

Would a scan of this document be of interest to others? With 56 pages it would take a while to do - let me know.

What do the abbreviations stand for? E.g. CS, CSH, CSPH.

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

What do the abbreviations stand for? E.g. CS, CSH, CSPH.

This is a really good question I haven’t quite resolved. They seem to be used in two ways - one to describe a fair, and also in listing the number of wagons required. 
 

In the first case it would make sense if they meant Cattle Sheep Pigs Horses. 
In the second case that doesn’t make sense at all. 
 

Where listing the numbers of wagons needed, K is a traditional small cattle wagon, KN is the larger CIE cattle wagon, and I assume KNV is a vacuum-fitted KN. 

Note that the document also covers the use of CIE road transport.

Open to other ideas! I’ll get the scanner out tomorrow and scan the livestock pages so we have more examples to decode. 

[Galteemore]

It’s interesting as it seems to be related to the origins of the traffic. Thus ‘Mart’ and ‘Sales’ are also used, which are fairly self explanatory. The term CPH is ‘County Parish Holding’ - a way of identifying places where livestock are handled. I’m wondering if some taxonomy related to this kind of idea is in play, identifying the source of the traffic. 

Edited January 23 by Galteemore

[leslie10646]

On 17/1/2026 at 11:29 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Some of my time this week has been spent building a tin van from one of @Mayner's kits.

It's not yet complete but is starting to look the part and makes an interesting contrast to the old 6-wheel coach:

Another ebay purchase arrived this week - an old CIE document from Christmas 1959. This is what I would describe as a 'weekly operating notice' although it does not carry that title and it covers a 2-week period. 56 pages in total, it contains lots of detail about special trains, Christmas timetable alterations, even items of goods lost and found. 

The arrangements for livestock fairs are particularly interesting though I haven't quite decoded them all yet. Here's 2 of the 6 pages devoted to livestock traffic arrangements, both rail and road:

Would a scan of this document be of interest to others? With 56 pages it would take a while to do - let me know.

Just to remind everyone (again) that here's another reason for being a member of the IRRS - it has a bound run of at least fifty years of these weekly notices. They're in the Holy of Holies upstairs at the back of the library - with the same documents for GSR (GSWR? - not sure) and GNR.

They are remarkable record of what was going to happen each week - the livestock section could run to 20/30 pages alone! Of course, the working timetables of the railways are there too.

A perusal of the GNR weekly notice by my son (12 at the time) resulted in our house name "Pettigo Fair' - it was on the day his mother was born and my Dad could have been there, being a young constable in the RUC at Garrison on Lough Melvin.

[Mol_PMB]

6 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Just to remind everyone (again) that here's another reason for being a member of the IRRS - it has a bound run of at least fifty years of these weekly notices. They're in the Holy of Holies upstairs at the back of the library - with the same documents for GSR (GSWR? - not sure) and GNR.

They are remarkable record of what was going to happen each week - the livestock section could run to 20/30 pages alone! Of course, the working timetables of the railways are there too.

A perusal of the GNR weekly notice by my son (12 at the time) resulted in our house name "Pettigo Fair' - it was on the day his mother was born and my Dad could have been there, being a young constable in the RUC at Garrison on Lough Melvin.

Many thanks Leslie, that’s very good to know the information survives. 
I must try to find an opportunity to visit the IRRS library. I expect it will need a special visit to Ireland as the opening hours seem very limited. 

[Mol_PMB]

I've put the question about livestock traffic in a separate thread:

 

[Mol_PMB]

I've tried applying some Railtec rivets to one side of the tin van.

I'm not yet quite convinced this is an improvement, partly because they seem a bit too bold, but also because it's extremely difficult to get them in a perfectly spaced grid. It looks OK side-on but looking along the vehicle the variation is more apparent. 

I'll put another coat of primer on them and see how it looks. I might sand them all off again...

 

[flange lubricator]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I've tried applying some Railtec rivets to one side of the tin van.

I'm not yet quite convinced this is an improvement, partly because they seem a bit too bold, but also because it's extremely difficult to get them in a perfectly spaced grid. It looks OK side-on but looking along the vehicle the variation is more apparent. 

I'll put another coat of primer on them and see how it looks. I might sand them all off again...

 

I think the rivets might be a little overkill it was the coverslips that had screws and only on the to cover between the panels.

 

 

Edited January 28 by flange lubricator

[Mol_PMB]

16 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

I think the rivets might be a little overkill it was the coverslips that had screws and only on the to cover between the panels.

They can be pretty obvious on the silver tin vans though:

[popeye]

They do look a bit high and even with paint they might be too visible.

Test a bit with paint to see how they look.

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, popeye said:

They do look a bit high and even with paint they might be too visible.

Test a bit with paint to see how they look.

Yes, I think they're too bold. Interesting that the carrier film strip is also still visible even after a coat of paint. I'll mull it over for a day or two but I suspect these will be coming off again!

Perhaps I should do some custom 2-dimensional decals which are just a grid of small brown spots that could be applied over the silver paint?

[flange lubricator]

They were very subtle and they were in the coverslips / ribs between the panels.

 

[popeye]

It's a pity after all that work, maybe 10 coats of paint might blend them in a bit 

[Galteemore]

I think a rub with a fibre glass pencil will soften them down a bit.

[Colonel]

Sometimes, less is more, plus there is the 'two foot' rule as well. The prototype rivets are very small...

[Tullygrainey]

What size of rivet did you use Paul? The Railtec 4mm range includes 12 different sizes of rivet head diameter from scale 1/4inch to 2inches. Might a smaller size improve things?

[Mol_PMB]

Quite possibly. 
I’ll check at the weekend - I’ve been out on site today playing with 1:1 scale trains.

 

These days I don’t get many chances to dress up in orange and work in full scale.

[DJ Dangerous]

On 28/1/2026 at 7:59 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, I think they're too bold. Interesting that the carrier film strip is also still visible even after a coat of paint. I'll mull it over for a day or two but I suspect these will be coming off again!

Perhaps I should do some custom 2-dimensional decals which are just a grid of small brown spots that could be applied over the silver paint?

Exterminate, exterminate!

[Mol_PMB]

On 29/1/2026 at 10:27 AM, Tullygrainey said:

What size of rivet did you use Paul? The Railtec 4mm range includes 12 different sizes of rivet head diameter from scale 1/4inch to 2inches. Might a smaller size improve things?

I used 7mm-9233 rivets. They are 1/2" rivets at 4" spacing in 7mm scale. The reason I used 7mm scale ones is to achieve a wide enough spacing. They don't do anything more than a scale 4" spacing. 

They do also do 1/4" rivets which would probably be more suitable in this case.

 

However, I have another idea which is to do a laser-cut stencil-type mask for the sides (essentially a grid of tiny holes) and then do the rivets with a spary of brownish paint. 

I'll try that out on a piece of scrap and if it works I'll take the 3D rivets off. 

 

In the meantime I am also evaluating some options for custom transfers in Eau-de-Nil. I don't think I can match the Railtec colour but I think I have a reasonably convincing faded EdN, and a way of outlining the snails (and loco numbers) in goldish.

 

[Mol_PMB]

The rivets have come off the tin van and it is now in the paint shop.

Meanwhile the tar bitumen tank is going through a multi-stage weathering process. Soon it will be ready to be mated to the chassis.

And the postie delivered this kit today. I am going to modify it into a reasonable representation of WLWR horsebox 1025, which survived until 1964.

The sides, floor and roof will need shortening, as well as a few other minor modifications. I've designed some new ends to replace those in the kit - they should fit on my etch of carriage bits. 

 

[popeye]

12 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I used 7mm-9233 rivets. They are 1/2" rivets at 4" spacing in 7mm scale. The reason I used 7mm scale ones is to achieve a wide enough spacing. They don't do anything more than a scale 4" spacing. 

They do also do 1/4" rivets which would probably be more suitable in this case.

 

However, I have another idea which is to do a laser-cut stencil-type mask for the sides (essentially a grid of tiny holes) and then do the rivets with a spary of brownish paint. 

I'll try that out on a piece of scrap and if it works I'll take the 3D rivets off. 

 

In the meantime I am also evaluating some options for custom transfers in Eau-de-Nil. I don't think I can match the Railtec colour but I think I have a reasonably convincing faded EdN, and a way of outlining the snails (and loco numbers) in goldish.

 

I think it might need a little more of a pale green tint, but it could just be my screen.

To me it looks like a pale blue/grey.

[Mol_PMB]

50 minutes ago, popeye said:

I think it might need a little more of a pale green tint, but it could just be my screen.

To me it looks like a pale blue/grey.

Unfortunately I don’t have a free choice of colours. There are only inks in specific shades, mostly fairly bright colours. It is possible to overlay some combinations of different colours (but other combinations don’t stick). 

Having said that, the real EdN faded in several different ways so I can tolerate an imperfect match. 

Of the three large snails here, which looks best to you? 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, popeye said:

I think it might need a little more of a pale green tint, but it could just be my screen.

To me it looks like a pale blue/grey.

Yes, it needs to be more green-tinted, even in a badly weathered version. I saw these things in real life and the apparent greyish-blue that appears to be in photos is just poorer colour in old slides. They weathered to a slightly paler version of broadly the same pale green. The dull gold lining just got more brownish.

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Unfortunately I don’t have a free choice of colours. There are only inks in specific shades, mostly fairly bright colours. It is possible to overlay some combinations of different colours (but other combinations don’t stick). 

Having said that, the real EdN faded in several different ways so I can tolerate an imperfect match. 

Of the three large snails here, which looks best to you? 

Top right is closest, but in reality all those aren't really like the real thing at all, and the white one is of course not accurate either. I would stick with the small pale green one in the moddle, to the left of the white one. Even for faded, this is by far the most realistic.

[Mol_PMB]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, it needs to be more green-tinted, even in a badly weathered version. I saw these things in real life and the apparent greyish-blue that appears to be in photos is just poorer colour in old slides. They weathered to a slightly paler version of broadly the same pale green. The dull gold lining just got more brownish.

Top right is closest, but in reality all those aren't really like the real thing at all, and the white one is of course not accurate either. I would stick with the small pale green one in the moddle, to the left of the white one. Even for faded, this is by far the most realistic.

Unfortunately your preferred colour (the small one) is not an option for the custom decals! 
That’s my difficulty here. 

[Colonel]

Given they are all somewhat cruel enlargements, suspect that once in 4mm scale, plus the two foot rule, the pale green one will look fine.

[Mol_PMB]

Thank you for the constructive criticism which has encouraged me to reassess.

I have applied the trial transfers to a green background, which has made quite a difference to the appearance of the colours. 

The variants are:

• ER PW - this has just one layer of translucent 'Pastel White', and the green paint showing through. In places this looks good but the colour is uneven, and of course it would be no good on a silver, grey or black background.
• PG+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Process Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. It's a bit bluish but probably the least bad option so far.
• PG+2OW - as above but with an extra layer of 'Opaque White' to further lighten the green.
• G+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. This shade of green is less blue, but the overlaid combination has just gone grey. Not very convincing.

Now there are some other possibilities that I could try, though each trial has to be paid for and takes a few days to arrive. And not all combinations of colour overlays will stick.

I'm thinking that the following might be worth trying:

• White, 'Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Process Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Spot Green' and 'Pastel White'.

Perhaps I will ask for trials in each of these before committing to a full sheet.

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thank you for the constructive criticism which has encouraged me to reassess.

I have applied the trial transfers to a green background, which has made quite a difference to the appearance of the colours. 

The variants are:

• ER PW - this has just one layer of translucent 'Pastel White', and the green paint showing through. In places this looks good but the colour is uneven, and of course it would be no good on a silver, grey or black background.
• PG+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Process Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. It's a bit bluish but probably the least bad option so far.
• PG+2OW - as above but with an extra layer of 'Opaque White' to further lighten the green.
• G+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. This shade of green is less blue, but the overlaid combination has just gone grey. Not very convincing.

Now there are some other possibilities that I could try, though each trial has to be paid for and takes a few days to arrive. And not all combinations of colour overlays will stick.

I'm thinking that the following might be worth trying:

• White, 'Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Process Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Spot Green' and 'Pastel White'.

Perhaps I will ask for trials in each of these before committing to a full sheet.

PG+OW and G+OW definitely look best IMO.

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thank you for the constructive criticism which has encouraged me to reassess.

I have applied the trial transfers to a green background, which has made quite a difference to the appearance of the colours. 

The variants are:

• ER PW - this has just one layer of translucent 'Pastel White', and the green paint showing through. In places this looks good but the colour is uneven, and of course it would be no good on a silver, grey or black background.
• PG+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Process Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. It's a bit bluish but probably the least bad option so far.
• PG+2OW - as above but with an extra layer of 'Opaque White' to further lighten the green.
• G+OW - this has layers of White (as a primer), 'Green' and 'Opaque White' to lighten the green. This shade of green is less blue, but the overlaid combination has just gone grey. Not very convincing.

Now there are some other possibilities that I could try, though each trial has to be paid for and takes a few days to arrive. And not all combinations of colour overlays will stick.

I'm thinking that the following might be worth trying:

• White, 'Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Process Green' and 'Pastel White'.
• White, 'Spot Green' and 'Pastel White'.

Perhaps I will ask for trials in each of these before committing to a full sheet.

ERPW version - you mention that this would be no good on a silver background - 100% correct! YET - that's exactly what was sometimes to be seen! Look at some pics of A & C class locos, or the less well kept coaching stock (yes, tin vans - I'm looking straight at you...!) and you can barely see a shadow of that is supposed to be on it. Whoever dreamed up the idea of the silver livery needed their head felt, as a former teacher of mine would have said - but whoever decided to put PALE green numerals on it too, was even more so! Now; important point; no rillin stock or locos in silver ever had any sort of logo on them. ONLY numbers. But ther's an exception to every rule: the "A" class had a cut-out metal "snail", painted pale green! I have a vague idea that one "C" might have had too, but that may not be correct.

In all reality, I must say, though, that I absolutely applaud your diligence in getting this JUST right, and with the proper lining too, often considered too small and insignificant on a scale as small as 00 (0 gauge would be a different matter). However, ERPW, blotchy as it looks, is in colour terms as "un-green" as it would ever have been, and even then, it would want to be aganist a very badly worn green background. The small logo underneath ERPW, in reality was by a country mile the best match. Old colour slides have a habit of gaining a bluish tint; the others shown are far, far too "blue". 

The snail was a transfer. The basic pale green colour didn't fade as badly as a primary colour like blue or red would do. The worst I ever saw was on an old bus at Broadstone about 1970 or so. The background dark green had badly deteriorated, but the snail on the side, while paler, was not so to the point of approaching white, or wnything like it, plus, even then it hadn't turned blue even slightly.

[jhb171achill]

Further comment - you say ERPW would look well on grey or black (steam engines, obviously); but also green - and steam loco tender "snails" got more abuse than any others! I saw a pic where despite an engine being as clean (or as least dirty!) as any steam loco was in CIE times, the only but you could see of any snail at all was the pointy bit top left corner! 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Further comment - you say ERPW would look well on grey or black (steam engines, obviously); but also green - and steam loco tender "snails" got more abuse than any others! I saw a pic where despite an engine being as clean (or as least dirty!) as any steam loco was in CIE times, the only but you could see of any snail at all was the pointy bit top left corner! 

The ERPW transfer has no green element to it at all. It is just partially translucent so the green paint underneath is showing through. This is why it's no good on backgrounds other than green.

I appreciate that in reality the green transfers were applied to backgrounds of other colours (grey wagons, 'silver' coaches, black tenders) but applying this ERPW transfers to those colours would just give shades of grey. 

Hence why I have now asked for some more trial samples with a green ink layer followed by an ERPW layer. With 3 different shades of green.

Hopefully I'll get there eventually.

 

It would be much easier if Railtec would do custom transfers!

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

The ERPW transfer has no green element to it at all. It is just partially translucent so the green paint underneath is showing through. This is why it's no good on backgrounds other than green.

Got ya! Then the little small one underneath is by a country mile the best. An extremely slight fading of that would serve a weathered look, but no blue tint.

Even when badly faded, they never looked whiteish.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

Got ya! Then the little small one underneath is by a country mile the best. An extremely slight fading of that would serve a weathered look, but no blue tint.

Even when badly faded, they never looked whiteish.

Yes, that little one is a Railtec one. They have a technically different printing process and can produce the correct colour easily. BUT they don't sell much in the way of coach numbering, 'GUARD' labels, or the 2" wide lining used on the later loight green livery. Nor do they do loco numbers for green locos, or the tonnage lettering for the coach ends. Nor EdN lettering/numbering for wagons, though I have bodged it on a couple of wagons by using snails and (incorrect) EdN loco numbering offered for smaller scales.

I have tried suggesting additions to the range to suit the later carriage livery, in many cases they could just print existing artwork in their EdN colour. I have tried requesting custom transfers. I have tried offering my artwork free of charge for them to offer as a product. They're not interested and either don't reply, or say they're not interested. Sometimes they rant on RMweb about being too busy to do custom work and thye would prefer that people should stop asking!

Precision Decals have excellent service, great communication, good prices, quick delivery and are happy to do custom decals from my artwork. But they use an older printing technology and can't print EdN directly like Railtec can. So I'm going through the pain of trying to create an acceptable version of EdN using the Precision Decals inks. It's hard going!

[Galteemore]

Love the way you are so imbibing our culture that you are now typing words as we say them….’loight’. Dread to think what you’ll look like by 17 March

[jhb171achill]

42 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, that little one is a Railtec one. They have a technically different printing process and can produce the correct colour easily. BUT they don't sell much in the way of coach numbering, 'GUARD' labels, or the 2" wide lining used on the later loight green livery. Nor do they do loco numbers for green locos, or the tonnage lettering for the coach ends. Nor EdN lettering/numbering for wagons, though I have bodged it on a couple of wagons by using snails and (incorrect) EdN loco numbering offered for smaller scales.

I have tried suggesting additions to the range to suit the later carriage livery, in many cases they could just print existing artwork in their EdN colour. I have tried requesting custom transfers. I have tried offering my artwork free of charge for them to offer as a product. They're not interested and either don't reply, or say they're not interested. Sometimes they rant on RMweb about being too busy to do custom work and thye would prefer that people should stop asking!

Precision Decals have excellent service, great communication, good prices, quick delivery and are happy to do custom decals from my artwork. But they use an older printing technology and can't print EdN directly like Railtec can. So I'm going through the pain of trying to create an acceptable version of EdN using the Precision Decals inks. It's hard going!

I had contacted Railtec several times in the past with specific enquiries - no answer. Now I know why!!