1916 names

[LNERW1]

Just wondering- if Harcourt Street and Broadstone were reopened and given 1916 names, what would they likely be? De Valera and Collins jump to mind, although as far as I'm aware all the executed leaders' names are taken. I'm building an ideal Irish network in NIMBY Rails, a software I've mentioned before on this forum and want to use the two as underground high-speed stations, but am not quite sure what to name them. Obviously I could just use their original names but it does feel a little out of place among Dublin's 1916 stations, plus a surname is usually less clunky than a geographic location (Although De Valera is probably more of a mouthful than Broadstone- more than likely it'd be shortened to Dev in real life). I'd appreciate a bit of help as this problem's been sitting with me for a good couple months now so I thought I'd turn to the much smarter people on this forum for a hand.

[Mol_PMB]

Arguably they have been reopened - on the LUAS green line - and have been given variants of their old names.

But a good thought. 

What was the logic for which stations were given 1916 names - they're not all termini, and not all termini were thus named. Maybe there are other stations that could gain a name?

[LNERW1]

I think the logic was just that the then (and probably now) 15-biggest/busiest stations would take the names of 1916 martyrs. I do quite enjoy the precedent we have in Ireland of naming stations after people- when designing networks in the software I mentioned, it's usually quite fun finding someone to name a station after- where it makes sense.

Just for reference, here's the network I have at the moment- I actually started with suburban and light rail in Galway and worked my way eastwards. As such, the MGWR has the most attention, as it should having been so neglected for so long!

The blue line from Dublin to Drogheda is the under-construction Northern Highspeed Line. At the moment Galway, Dublin, Limerick and Belfast have internal/suburban services as well. I won't clog up this too much longer but, for reference, here's Dublin:

[Galteemore]

28 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Arguably they have been reopened - on the LUAS green line - and have been given variants of their old names.

But a good thought. 

What was the logic for which stations were given 1916 names - they're not all termini, and not all termini were thus named. Maybe there are other stations that could gain a name?

The logic was that the stations were the nearest significant location connected to the person commemorated. Thus Sligo is named after Sean McDermott, who lived in Co Leitrim. The SLNC station at Kilmakerrill was actually the closest railhead to his homestead but had shut by 1966. Casement station is named thus because Roger Casement, although from the opposite end of the island, was captured near Tralee after landing from a U-boat. And so on for the other stations 

Edited May 15 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

Choosing between Dev and Collins and others that took opposing sides in the Civil War would have been likely to have been divisive until recently. Safer to choose executed 1916 leaders that were acceptable to both sides.

From the Anti-Treaty perspective those that signed and enforced the Anglo-Irish treaty had betrayed the Republic, while from the Pro-Treaty side considered the Irregulars as in modern terms a group of Fundamentalists a real threat to the survival of the newly established Free State.

Depending on perspective people viewed Dev and Collins either as heroes or traitors.

Naming the stations after 1916 leaders was tied up with the 50th anniversary commemoration of the Rising and to stir up patriotic feeling and improve the Fianna Fail Government's election chances in 1967 General Election

Edited May 15 by Mayner

[LNERW1]

Free Staters on the south side, Republicans on the North could have a chance at reducing immediately local controversy. 

[GSR 800]

10 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

Just wondering- if Harcourt Street and Broadstone were reopened and given 1916 names, what would they likely be? De Valera and Collins jump to mind, although as far as I'm aware all the executed leaders' names are taken. I'm building an ideal Irish network in NIMBY Rails, a software I've mentioned before on this forum and want to use the two as underground high-speed stations, but am not quite sure what to name them. Obviously I could just use their original names but it does feel a little out of place among Dublin's 1916 stations, plus a surname is usually less clunky than a geographic location (Although De Valera is probably more of a mouthful than Broadstone- more than likely it'd be shortened to Dev in real life). I'd appreciate a bit of help as this problem's been sitting with me for a good couple months now so I thought I'd turn to the much smarter people on this forum for a hand.

The most likely outcome is they'd have received the names of 'smaller' stations instead, such as Dundalk, Drogheda, etc. As mentioned by John, naming them after figures either side of the civil war would not be wise politically.

24 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

Free Staters on the south side, Republicans on the North could have a chance at reducing immediately local controversy. 

And this would be unwise, it is, after all, a rail transport network, people from every corner of the country would be coming to and from Dublin. Dublin as a whole was quite pro-treaty. Far better to avoid it altogether.

My personal thoughts are if the naming of stations was to be continued after executed leaders of the Rising, it'd likely be famous Irish figures in literature, art, sport etc. Or if you want to embrace our industrial heritage, name it after notable figures of the railway. Broadstone Cusack, anyone? This would have to be taken with great consideration also, of course, as many of the railway companies discriminated against Catholics being in the higher ranks before independence.

 

Edited Friday at 07:04 by GSR 800

[Flying Snail]

As mentioned above - had Harcourt St. and Broadstone remained in use in 1966, they would have received two of the names of the executed leaders that were allocated to other stations.

In addition to Dev and Collins, another prominent name associated is Countess Markievicz - she ended up on the anti-treaty side of the Civil War, so she probably presents the same civil war politics dilemma (btw, we have since had public buildings and spaces named after all three of these). But, if you want to continue the 1916 theme and pick a name that would be acceptable to both sides of the Civil War - then I suggest you also think about those who died in the fighting in 1916. The most senior of the rebels to die in the fighting was probably The O'Rahilly, who had tried to stop the Rising going ahead, but still turned out to take part. He died covering the retreat from the GPO - cut down by a machine gun, he was refused medical treatment and left on the street to bleed out despite the rebels' surrender. He lived in Herbert Park, so Harcourt St would be a good candidate for him.

Another prominent death was the pacifist Francis Sheehy-Skeffington, who was arrested while trying to prevent looting and summarily executed. 

Now all that being said, if a station was being named in more recent times I think it more likely that the search for names would be broadened out to include literary and civic figures as well, so if your scenario involves a modern day renaming of the two stations you might consider some of those too?

Edited Friday at 12:11 by Flying Snail

[LNERW1]

10 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

And this would be unwise, it is, after all, a rail transport network, people from every corner of the country would be coming to and from Dublin. Dublin as a whole was quite pro-treaty. Far better to avoid it altogether.

I was joking a bit but you are right, that hadn't occured to me.

5 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

As mentioned above - had Harcourt St. and Broadstone remained in use in 1966, they would have received two of the names of the executed leaders that were allocated to other stations.

In addition to Dev and Collins, another prominent name associated is Countess Markievicz - she ended up on the anti-treaty side of the Civil War, so she probably presents the same civil war politics dilemma (btw, we have since had public buildings and spaces named after all three of these). But, if you want to continue the 1916 theme and pick a name that would be acceptable to both sides of the Civil War - then I suggest you also think about those who died in the fighting in 1916. The most senior of the rebels to die in the fighting was probably The O'Rahilly, who had tried to stop the Rising going ahead, but still turned out to take part. He died covering the retreat from the GPO - cut down by a machine gun, he was refused medical treatment and left on the street to bleed out despite the rebels' surrender. He lived in Herbert Park, so Harcourt St would be a good candidate for him.

Another prominent death was the pacifist Francis Sheehy-Skeffington, who was arrested while trying to prevent looting and summarily executed. 

Now all that being said, if a station was being named in more recent times I think it more likely that the search for names would be broadened out to include literary and civic figures as well, so if your scenario involves a modern day renaming of the two stations you might consider some of those too?

I feel it likely would happen that, should 1916-style renaming start up again, figures other than solely rebels would likely be chosen, but your suggestions are quite good. Frankly there is a lot of politics involved so I see the point. I will try put this all to use, so if I do come to any conclusions I'll share them here to be dissected.

[Mol_PMB]

If you’re looking for more names I’m sure there are some railway pioneers, promoters, engineers etc that would deserve something named after them. Dargan, for example. 
But if you’re looking for a name for a closed station then perhaps someone like Beddy would be more appropriate? 
 

[LNERW1]

5 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

If you’re looking for more names I’m sure there are some railway pioneers, promoters, engineers etc that would deserve something named after them. Dargan, for example. 
But if you’re looking for a name for a closed station then perhaps someone like Beddy would be more appropriate? 
 

Yeah another good one. Presumably Carlow works best? Although there is a plaque to him at Portlaoise as well.

Also, having just headed back on over to continue playing (digital) trains, I was reminded what I'd named Drogheda's new high-speed station:

So I seem to have accidentally made the argument for more recent political figures myself.

[Branchline121]

I assumed they’d have used the names of the Forgotten Ten if they wanted to name more stations after revolutionaries, or instead maybe pre-1916 figures like Charles Stewart Parnell or Daniel O’Connell.

[jhb171achill]

Maybe some people in more rect times, like people involved in the 1998 peace treaty, or maybe some President who had broad popularity and cross-party support?

[Westcorkrailway]

This question had once come up for Albert quay. My first thought was Collins but for the reasons above, I ruled it out. Rather annoyingly a lot of these men in the cork are either one side or the other. The answer I ended up settling on was either Mac curtain or Mac Sweeny, the former cork mayors who died during the war of independence. 

[LNERW1]

3 hours ago, Branchline121 said:

I assumed they’d have used the names of the Forgotten Ten if they wanted to name more stations after revolutionaries, or instead maybe pre-1916 figures like Charles Stewart Parnell or Daniel O’Connell.

Pre-1916 had occured to me- I believe at one point I replaced North Wall with a huge station and named it Dublin Tone. Sounds a little too much like some sort of perfume or a song though, I think monosyllabic names rarely work. The only reason Pearse works, in my opinion, is because it's a very sharp word, and defines itself enough that it doesn't just sound like punctuation, which Tone unfortunately does.

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Maybe some people in more rect times, like people involved in the 1998 peace treaty, or maybe some President who had broad popularity and cross-party support?

Peace activists and widely respected politicians are something I had in mind for the North. I would have to be careful with the placement though, as obviously the huge levels of division would necessitate a lot of consideration as to what stations would be named after who, I'd say it'd especially cause issues along the Dublin line as the line divides East and West Belfast and so naming a station on the border of the two after a political figure would be an issue as the vast majority of politicians in the North are hated by enough people to be controversial, so more nonpartisan names, such as artists or performers, might be the best solution in that case, although an unfortunate bulk of art, especially from an area as politically charged as Belfast, is not entirely nonpartisan. Overall most art to emerge from the city in the past half-century is pro-peace though.

[minister_for_hardship]

The '66 namings were of their time, the choice of dead leaders everyone could get behind, papering over the cracks of the Civil War. I doubt we'll see further Rising/WOI namings on a large scale.

Interesting to note the names that stuck in regular use (Kent, Heuston, Colbert) with the rarely used (O'Hanrahan, Casement, MacBride)

Trends these days are naming things after people in the usual sports, literary and arts fields. But also formerly ignored Irish people in ww2 (helping Allied side obvs!), social issues, peace process, and much more of an emphasis on women.

[Galteemore]

Could always find a compromise candidate for a border station eg ‘Doyle’ after Company Sergeant Major Doyle - who won the VC with the British Army and then became an IRA intelligence officer. Or ‘Despard-French’ after the Viceroy Lord French and his sister Charlotte Despard who was a Sinn Fein activist ! One of the delightful things about our history is that it’s so rarely black and white. 

In the dying days of the modern Troubles I  taught at a school in west Belfast which had once been Protestant but turned Catholic in an overnight demographic change. The area (beside Ballymurphy) was solidly SF but a dusty portrait of the Queen remained under the stage as no-one could quite bring themselves to throw it out! 

Edited Saturday at 19:45 by Galteemore

[minister_for_hardship]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Maybe some people in more rect times, like people involved in the 1998 peace treaty, or maybe some President who had broad popularity and cross-party support?

The Mary McAleese bridge is the only thing to my knowledge named recently after a non deceased person here. 

It's probably prudent to allow a number of years to pass after a person dies before naming things after them, if say it was discovered subsequently the person did unsavoury things.

[Galteemore]

1 minute ago, minister_for_hardship said:

The Mary McAleese bridge is the only thing to my knowledge named recently after a non deceased person here. 

It's probably prudent to allow a number of years to pass after a person dies before naming things after them, if say it was discovered subsequently the person did unsavoury things.

The Orange Order have a rule that only the deceased may be commemorated on banners, after an unfortunate incident when a loyal brother ratted on the organisation after having been painted on a banner….

[GSR 800]

Perhaps we could look further back into Irish history?

"Red" Hugh Ui Neill Station? 

Maybe if one is feeling somewhat Invincible, Skin the Goat Station?

 

 

Edited Saturday at 20:21 by GSR 800

[Broithe]

Bono?

Arkle?

Daniel O'Donnell?

Ted Crilly?

[Galteemore]

20 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Perhaps we could look further back into Irish history?

"Red" Hugh Ui Neill Station? 

Maybe if one is feeling somewhat Invincible, Skin the Goat Station?

 

 

I did think that if the new RPSI mogul gets finished then calling it Hugh O’Neill would be a fairly inclusive way of nodding to the old NCC naming pattern

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, Broithe said:

Arkle?

Maybe famous Irish racehorses would be less contentious than people? 

If you chose the right place, Arkle would only require a minor change to the signs!

Shergar would be another good candidate, but multi-word names like Sea the Stars would be less practical. 

[Horsetan]

Maybe name 'em after Irish EuroSong winners. Plenty to choose from. 

[Darrman]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

Maybe name 'em after Irish EuroSong winners. Plenty to choose from. 

Derry Dana anyone?

[Broithe]

7 hours ago, Darrman said:

Derry Dana anyone?

Perfect!

Waterford Doonican?

[Westcorkrailway]

Cork cillian murphy

Bandon Graham Norton

[LNERW1]

I gave Dundalk the interim name MacMahon, after my mams old hairdresser who hailed from there and who, somewhat ironically, referred to it as Fun-dalk.

Edited Sunday at 07:26 by LNERW1

[Broithe]

Portlaoise Fitzmaurice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Fitzmaurice

[Horsetan]

10 hours ago, Broithe said:

Perfect!

Waterford Doonican?

Dublin Logan.

Edit to add: there'd be at least three stations named Logan to represent three EuroSong wins.

Edited Sunday at 17:10 by Horsetan