David's Workbench

[Northroader]

Really neat job, I’ve had several goes at doing coach bodies that way, and never managed to get them looking that good. Still, keep on trying, eh?

[David Holman]

Thanks folks, though I feel the same way about CAD, Ken. Happier to stick with what I know!

[David Holman]

Post Uckfield, have managed to get back to my new narrow gauge projects & in particular the Swilly brake coach. And what an interesting time it has been! Indeed, have had to vacate the workshop for the second afternoon running having tipped over a bottle of DI Lemonine solvent. Yesterday, I did the same thing with a bottle of MEK, which was even worse.

 Anyway, back to Monday, when I was hoping to get the panelling done on the other side of the coach, only to find that my stock of 20x40 micro strip had virtually run out. Never mind, I thought and initially went to the Amazon website to get some more Evergreen strip. Bad idea! They were asking £18 a packet [yes, really]. Fortunately, other outlets are available, not least Slaters Plasticard, who not only do a packet for under a fiver, but it contains 50 strips to the ten from Evergreen. Ordered Monday morning, arrived Tuesday lunchtime. Can't be bad.

 So far, so good. While waiting for it to arrive, I decided I could have a go at the Alphagraphix bogie/underframe kit. However, while the castings are nice enough, when made up, the are a scale 6' wide and will not fit between the sole bars. I tried various ideas to cut them down, using most of my tools, until finally realised that I needed to shorten both the centre spacer and the axles ends too. The picture below sums up the chaos nicely...

 Since then, things have progressed well and the panelling is now complete, with the coach sitting on its bogies and awaiting the addition of the double footboards.

 Another problem causing much head scratching has been what to use for couplings. Kadee No5s are too short for the 2'7" wheels on Swilly stock. Thought about using AJs, but these won't work with the centre buffing couplers, so am probably going to have to try Kaydee 0n3 type or even 0 gauge ones.

 My mind has also been turning to building a Londonderry & Lough Swilly locomotive. First choice is one of the Andrew Barclay 4-6-0Ts, not least because Worsley Works do a 7mm scale body kit. An order has been made though it will be a while as it is currently not in stock. However, I can make a start on the chassis, especially as Roger Cromblehome at Alphagraphix kindly sent me his CAD drawing. So, more stirring of the grey matter because, as you might expect, things are far from straightforward.

 The main problem is that these locos were outside framed and as far I can tell the right combination of wheels, extended axles and cranks are not available. Alan Gibson do a 6' diameter, 4mm scale driving wheel that is a close match to 3'6 in 7mm scale. These come in a £10 a pair. Slaters do a standard gauge 3'6 wheel, but these are now close to £30 an axle! Gibson wheels use a 1/8th inch axle, whereas Slaters are 3/16th. Gibson are unable to supply an extended axle for 21mm gauge and though Slaters do an extended axle for outside cranks, it is way too long for 3' gauge.

 So, what to do?After MUCH pondering, finally came up with the idea of sourcing my own 1/8th inch steel rod and cutting it to length myself. However, a different alternative might be to use Slater's coach/wagon axles, which are long enough to go through the outside frames, while the 1.8mm extensions on to which the wheels are fitted could actually be ideal to take the outside cranks.

 Still with me? I'm not sure I am, but this is where I have got to at the moment, so orders for Gibson wheels, bearings, motor-gearbox and so on are being prepared, while Geoff Holt's excellent books on loco construction are being pored over again. He's not done outside frames though, so John Ahern's Miniature Locomotive Construction, first published in 1949 [mine is from 1971] may also be useful.

 Watch this space, as they say. Below is a photo of the loco, Roger's frame drawings and my idea of Slater's wagon axles against 3' gauge wagon wheels. The Gibson wheels, being 4mm scale have 24 spokes [drivers] and 12 spokes [bogie], Swilly ones were 12 and six respectively, so may have to remove alternate spokes, though probably only on the bogie wheels as the drivers will pretty much be hidden behind the frames. Life is complicated, that's why it's fun. Allegedly...

 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

I bow to your superior knowledge sir.

[Northroader]

“Ahh, well, if I was goin’ there, I wouldn’t start from here at all, sorr…”

[Galteemore]

Lovely work on the coach David. Real Swilly lines about it. As for the Barclay, if anyone can find a way, you will ! That 7mm scale ruler is a fab tool, isn’t it? 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Galteemore

[Tullygrainey]

Love the Swilly coach David. Beautifully crisp lines and a credit to your skills (and patience). Good luck with the tank loco. I'm looking forward to seeing that develop. Keep us posted.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

I bow to your superior knowledge sir.

Cheers!

[Bob49]

What are yo planning on using for rail on your new masterpiece?

[airfixfan]

Looking good on your Swilly models David

[David Holman]

8 hours ago, Bob49 said:

What are yo planning on using for rail on your new masterpiece?

 I'm going to be adapting Fintonagh - mainly just a few new low relief buildings and new backscene. The track is hand built, using Peco Code 83 flat bottomed rail on copperclad sleepers. It uses 4mm finescale standards = one millimetre flangeways on the points. Both 0 and 00 wheels seem happy with this combination.

[Northroader]

I’ve only done two outside frame locos, one scratchbuilt and one a kit, and they were standard gauge using Slaters wheels. They had inside main frames, and dummy outside frames with loose axle boxes. The one thing with both of them was this arrangement seemed to take away any side play, and as they were six coupled they wanted to go In straight lines only. I managed to sort out the scratchbuilt one, so all it needs now is a superstructure, but the kit one needs new inside frames, which I keep putting off. This sideplay allowance is something to watch out for.

if you do get into using Slaters wheels, the ones for outside frames have the wheels fitted on a taper on the axle, once they’re on it, they don’t want to come off, and this affects how you plan the assembly, so it’s best to check the frame bush alignment with dummy axles and the side rods, then sort out motor and gearbox mounting as the wheels go on the axle for the first (and only) time. Good luck with how you sort out the availability of suitable wheels and axles, and how you do the quartering for the outside cranks. You look to be a better craftsman than me, and I’ll enjoy seeing how you do it.

I see you’re reusing Fintonagh, I’ve always admired the grouping of buildings on that, with a Swilly station it could be a bit simpler?

[David Holman]

Many thanks - sounds like good advice. Heard about the Slater's wheels and am certainly thinking will use inside frames, with the outside ones dummy - probably fixed to the footplate, with the extended axles in slots and not connected to the outer frames.

 Am thinking the inside frames will need to have a keeper plate, so I can drop out the wheels and motor gearbox when needed.

[David Holman]

Narrow gauge continues on two fronts, albeit one more theory than practice at the moment. In the practical world, the Swilly brake third is making progress, though  as is the way with coach building, it is as well not to get ahead of yourself too much.

 The coach had reached the stage where I could give it a coat of primer. I'd made a removable roof assembly & added basic interior seating detail [not sure the Swilly went much further!], so after a bit of a wash and brush up, out came the Halford's rattle can primer. This first witness coat showed a few areas needing attention, but as you can see from the second picture, a piece of beading on the guard's ducket is still slightly askew.

 After a few hours drying time, decided it was worth having a go at a bit more detailing. I'd already added representation of the door hinges [20thou plastic rod for the top two, 40x40 square of 20thou for the lower hinge], so next up were the varied door and grab handles. The former are ok, but the various grab handles are certainly not my favourite task - fiddly to say the least, with other, less polite, adjectives applicable too - especially the multiple bends for the door commode handles.

 Speaking of fiddly, I'd also added some [very] basic brake gear to the outer ends of each bogie. Not worth doing any more because the footboards hide much of what is below sole bar level. The upper footboards are just strips of 40thou plasticard, welded straight on to the sole bar, but the lower ones needed brackets made from 0.7mm brass wire, bent into an L shape. I flattened the top end using a hammer & small anvil, before glueing in place with cyano.

 It could be that the primer may end up being the top coat as well. In its latter days, Swilly coaches were grey, which it seems often weathered to an even lighter shade - along with a fair amount of dirt too, so once final detailing has been applied, it may be straight to the weathering bit.

 As far the Barclay 4-6-0T project is concerned, this remains in the planning stage at the moment. It certainly seems important to have a set of inside frames, with the outside ones being dummy. Swilly stock was about 7 feet wide, so I've been trying to work out all the clearances for the chassis. Therefore have been making some actual and large sized drawings to help visualise things.

 At the moment, using Slater's wagon axles seems about right. 3' gauge wheels work out as a scale 3' 6 wide overall. Therefore setting the frame spacers at 2'3 should give a scale one foot of space between the inner and outer frames. The latter, if set at 4'3 apart is also the distance between the ends of the Slater's 1/8th inch wagon axles. The actual wagon wheels are pushed on to smaller diameter extensions & these will hopefully take the crank axles. By the time coupling and connecting rods, plus the fixing nuts are added, the overall width stretches to about a scale 6'6, which seems about right under a 7' wide footplate., as shown below.

 Much as I'm keen to make a start, it probably makes sense to finish the coach first.

 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

The detail in this is amazing, I would need a degree in David Holmanology before I could catch up

[Northroader]

Looking back on “New Irish Lines” archive tonight, I see Mr. Alan Gee did a series of articles on modelling the LLSR about ten years ago, including outside frames, but to a 4mm scale.

[David Holman]

Indeed! Just been reading it. Interesting that he used just the outside frames.

[David Holman]

Mail order parcels have been arriving this week, albeit not quite in the order I expected, but welcome nevertheless.

 First in was a pack of Kadee 0 gauge couplings. Fintonagh stock uses No5s, but these are too small for the 2'7" Donegal and Swilly rolling stock wheels, so have had to go for the larger ones. Had been thinking about using Alex Jacksons, but these need standard side buffers, whereas narrow gauge favours centre 'chopper' couplings, so Kadees seemed the only option. They are quite chunky, but certainly work in terms of height, though being American, key dimensions are in fractions of an inch. The gap between the the bottom of the dropper wire and the rails is 1/16th of an inch, but the top of the drag box has to be 25/32", so making a simple gauge or three seems the best option, the simplest of which is a piece of 60 thou plastic sheet, which is as near as dammit to 1/16th"

 A bit of weathering and painting has been done - in the case of the roof, after receiving a couple of layers of tissue paper to simulate the canvas covering.

 Another parcel was from Worsley Works. I hadn't been expecting the Barclay 4-6-0T etchings for several weeks, so it was a nice surprise. Worsley etches are very much an aid to scratch building and certainly NOT kits, because there are no castings, or indeed instructions, so working out what some of the parts are often requires a bit of thought, while you also need to compile a list of all the additional items required, such as chimney, dome, safety valves, handrail wire and other details, plus of course the chassis too. Speaking of which, am still waiting for the wheels from Alan Gibson, ordered at the same time as the Worsley etches...

 Anyway, I think I've identified the parts - side tanks, cab, footplate [& valances], smokebox saddle and sand boxes being fairly obvious. Less sure about how the boiler works, or indeed the smokebox wrapper, while the inner sides of the tanks are just one of the things I'll need to make, but overall, the etches represent a very helpful start.

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Love the weathering and the roof on the coach, great stuff David.

[Galteemore]

Carriage looks fabulous. And you’ll make short work of the etches I think….Swilly engines were famously clean so those brass spectacle rims will look rather splendid gleaming against the deep green cab front…..

[KMCE]

Nice work on the carriage - it has that aged, lived in look.  Excellent weathering!

Agree with the comments on the etches - been there and still have the tee shirts....

[David Holman]

 The Swilly coach is now pretty much finished. Final jobs included fitting roofs to the duckets, glazing, plus lettering, numbering and a bit more weathering. At least the Swilly didn't go much on complex liveries for its coaching stock - the diamond logo [hand drawn with various fine marker pens], plus 'guard' at the van end and a number [both transfers] and that's it. I also made some covers for where the lamp tops went after electric lighting was installed.

 Hopefully it looks suitably care worn. Eventually, it will form the mixed train with a couple of wagons and the Barclay 4-6-0T

 With another show coming up for NP Quay, decided I ought to improve my stock storage, so invested in some new plastic ones from The Range. Not sure about the Barbie Pink lids, but they mean my stock now stands on its wheels and I can [hopefully] protect the AJ coupling hooks better. I can also fit a complete train in each box, which makes for easier setting up and packing away. The three deeper cardboard boxes contain the station building, the crane and some spare stock if/when required.

[Andy Cundick]

Hate to say it but the early Swilly liveries are anything but simple being to all intents and purposes the LSWRs salmon and brown with the Burtonport being lake and cream sides with vermillion ends my train of them look like something from a circus  Andy 

[airfixfan]

Your Swilly coaches look well.on the Burtonport layout.

[David Holman]

Am depicting the 1940s, Andy so nothing fancy -apart from the locos, which always seemed to be well looked after. Shame none were saved...

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely outstanding stuff!

[Andy Cundick]

Ah the joys of modern image modelling,Andy.

[Tullygrainey]

Another gem. That weathering is beautifully understated. Spot on!

[David Holman]

Barclay 4-6-0T

 Made a start today with the Worsley Works etches and as Galteemore intimated a couple of weeks ago, they don't take long to put together.

 However, because there are no instructions, there is a bit of detective work involved. Began with the footplate, adding the valances first, then the cab front, where a slot and tab help alignment. The cab rear has two half etched lines to help fold it to shape.

 Next came the combined cab, tank and bunker sides. There is a half etched line here too to bend the tank fronts. So far, so good, but there was one etch that caused a lot of head scratching. A curious large rectangle, which I initially though might be for the boiler, but two more etched lines for folds shown that it wasn't. Eventually noted that as well as two large holes, there were also six smaller ones, three each side along the edges. 

 Curiously this etch is meant to fold up and fit the space between the tank sides, with the two large holes being for the tank fillers and the six smaller ones for hand rail knobs.

 Well, that ain't going to happen! Really not sure about why the etch was designed this way - unless these Barclays had completely flush tops to their tanks. This seems unlikely & in any case there would then be the awkward task of making up a section of boiler top. Instead, I  plan to cut the big etch to just include the tank tops and then make new inner tank sides. At least this way I can take advantage of the etched holes for the hand rail knobs and tank fillers. Do let me know if the tanks were actually like this, please!

 The photos also show the smokebox saddle and what looks like a former for the smokebox itself. However, this is too short, so when I roll the boiler tube, some careful surgery looks likely to make sure it all fits.

 So, the basic shape only took a couple of hours, which certainly shows the value of Worsley etches, because they have saved me several hours of marking and cutting from sheet brass. However, don't think this is a quick build - far from it. These Barclay tanks had a lot of small details to be added, while there is the small matter of an outside framed chassis which needs scratch building.

 One final picture for now is of Northport Quay, where you can see the track that has been replaced is now reballasted, though still awaiting a bit more detailing. At least I can run trains again.

[Paul 34F]

Hello David,

I’ve sent you a PM re your question about the tank tops. 
 

Paul

[David Holman]

First of all, many thanks to Paul, Galteemore and Airfixfan for their advice and help with the Barclay tanks, which did indeed follow the usual conventions. The next stage for me was to start on the chassis, now that I have a basic body structure. I always like to get the working parts of a model done as soon as possible, because once that is assured, the rest is cosmetic.

 So far, the approach has been very conventional, starting with the coupling rod blanks. These are two strips of brass, soldered together, then marked out and drilled for the crank pin holes. They will be filed to shape later. Next, two more strips of nickel silver sheet were soldered together, then the relevant part of the chassis plan was cut out and stuck to the sheets with Pritt Stick. The frame sides were then cut out to this profile, using a slitting disc in the Dremel. Crude, but effective, not least because these inner frames will be hidden from sight and don't need any detailing.

 The coupling rod blanks were then clamped to the frames and drilled through for the axle holes., opening the frame holes out to just over 1/8th inch. The frames were then separated and the axle holes opened a bit more to take the axle bearings, which could then be soldered in place.

 Previous 3' gauge locos' frame spacers are 15.5mm wide, so some more brass strip was cut and filed to shape to make four of these. The two vertical spacers were now soldered to one of the frames and then, using three, 300mm pieces of stainless steel rod to align both frames, the other side was soldered to the first two spacers and then two more horizontal spacers added after than.

 So, a decent start on the chassis, but the tricky bits, namely the bogie and [especially] the outside cranks are still to come, while an order has been sent off for a High Level motor gearbox.

 The final pictures shows the Slater's wagon axles in place. The Alan Gibson wheels will go on the 1/8th inch part of these and the outside cranks [when I have made them]will eventually go on the 1.8mm diameter outer ends.

[Galteemore]

Fabulous David. This is the bit I hate most in a loco scratch build - lots of precision work and hard sawing. But it’s worth it when that chassis rolls, as this will soon. 

[Tullygrainey]

Lovely stuff David. I'm really enjoying watching your progress. Keep posting!

 

[David Holman]

 Much pondering this week on the chassis & am grateful to Alan [tullygrainy] for his advice  on Gibson wheels and [going way back] to John Ahern's book on loco construction. My concerns centred around the Gibson wheels, which as a long time 7mm Scale modeller seem a bit less robust than Slater's. At this stage of building a model, wheels need to come on and off many times: quartering not an issue until the cranks go on, but when they do, I don't want to have to mess about after that.

 Here's where the Ahern book comes in. First published in 1949, obviously a lot of the ideas are very old school now, but still worth looking at and it was a section on using keeper plates which caught my attention. A keeper plate means that all three axles/six wheels can be dropped out in a single unit, complete with the motor gear box.

 However, before this, a problem arose in that though the axles in the chassis aligned well enough, when I tried to add the coupling rod blanks, the rear section was out by getting on for a millimetre... Deep sigh, various profanities etc, so what to do?

 In an effort to cut my losses, decided I could probably still use the original inner frames as the outer ones, but there was little alternative than to cut some new inner ones and set the coupling rod blanks more accurately this time. Kept these new frames very simple, because they won't be seen, so it didn't take too long, but the photo below of my workbench shows the amount of tools I ended up using.

 Before the frames were assembled, I marked a line across the base of the bearings and then removed the metal level with this, followed by cutting out a section of each bearing to create slot for the axles to drop into. I then fitted two pieces of thicker brass between the frames and cut a larger rectangle for the keeper plate. Holes at each end were then drilled to take 10ba bolts, which fit into captive nuts in the two new spacers.

 

 

 The final picture shows how the previous inner frames might yet be used as the outer ones. Dummy hornblocks and springs will hopefully hide their origins.

[Tullygrainey]

Every tool in the box, and then some! Looks familiar. I know that sinking feeling when something you've spent hours on suddenly looks to be scrap but excellent recovery David. That was an extra hurdle I'm sure you could've done without but you seem to be back on track again. All part of the learning curve   

I like the idea of the keeper plate. Worth the time and effort required I think.