David's Workbench

[David Holman]

 I seem to have been flitting around various wagons over the last week or so, starting several, but not able to complete anything due to shortages of micro strip. Hopefully, I can put that right at the Tonbridge show on Saturday.

 Another problem has been trying to decide which Donegal wagons I want to build. The background to this is that the makeover I want to do on Fintonagh sees both Swilly and Donegal trains share the tracks - either as separate sequences or combined. Swilly is fairly easy - a passenger train and either a mixed or a freight. The mixed had been favourite, but finding a pictures and plans of 4 wheel brakes is leaning me towards the latter now.

 I have three Swilly wagons, but going through various books, I realised I had the means for several others, in the form of my Clogher Valley stock. Two or three of these won't need much work, other than a bit of new lettering. They even seem to have kept the original 2' diameter wheels when they went to the Swilly and, I'll argue, could have been ideal for my bit of fiction - as will an unfinished scratch build of a CVR butter van.

 

 CVR stock went to the Donegal as well, of course [Cavan and Leitrim too], who saw the vans and opens as ideal for working with their railcars. However, compared to the CVR's 10-15mph speeds, on the Donegal they were expected to run at up to 40mph, which their small wheels, with narrow treads, soon caused problems, so most got rebuilt with 2'7 wheels and vacuum brakes, becoming the well known 'red vans'. At least one open wagon seemed to retain its original chassis, so one of my opens is due for a repaint.

 For the red vans, I have several unmade Branchlines CVR chassis etches, which, with a small amount of fettling, will take 2'7 wheels. I also have two sets of my own resin castings which can make a couple of vans - though Slater's corrugated plastic is very much on Saturday's shopping list for me to make their roofs. Progress on the above is shown below: the one on the left will become a Swilly van, while the one on the right uses the resin castings and 2'7 wheels.

 The final pictures show a Donegal sliding door van - one of two that need micro strip I don't have - plus alongside it a not dissimilar Swilly van.

 Deciding on motive power for my Donegal trains has also caused much head scratching. CVR railcar 1 will be repainted to become Donegal 10, while the Atkinson Walker tractor will be rebuilt and repainted as Phoenix. The 'Unit'  also went to the Donegal, but only got used for spares, it seems. However, in my version of events, it will find use hauling goods - probably with one of the CVR brake vans and a mixture of stock. I have been thinking about building a Class 2 4-6-0T for this work, but they had all gone by 1937. However, I hope to build another railcar, either 6 or 7, which can also haul a couple of wagons if required, with Phoenix acting as shunter.

 As I'm already on Plan D [at least!] for all this, no doubt things will still change, but it feels good to be able to repurpose so much of my CVR stock. Might the Sharp Stewart tanks also have found a home on my Donegal-Swilly Joint line? Who knows - though they were pretty worn out by the CVR's closure.

[airfixfan]

CVR No 4?

[Metrovik]

I can see that the wagon bodies are made from either plastic or mount board but how may I ask, did you get the chassis together for them to sit on?

[David Holman]

Bodies are all plasticard, apart my resin cast one. The chassis for this is a Branchlines etched brass kit, correct for CVR wagons. Still available, even though, like the two CVR coachex, they date from the late 1980s.

 Swilly and Donegal wagons are on Alphagraphix whitemetal chassis kits. These are discontinued, but if you email Roger (see the website), it is possible he may still have a few. The ones I got are all nine foot wheelbase, but it is a simple matter to cut them down, or even extend. I use Slater's wheels in these and Branchlines 14mm in the others. The latter use 2mm brass rod for the axles to suit both 21mm gauge and magnetic uncouplers.

 Not (yet) got round to building CVR 4, Jim. Maybe one day...

[David Holman]

Side chains - the Spawn of Satan

 Seems ok from the picture below? A piece of three link chain, with a hook on one end and a fixing loop in the buffer beam on the other?

 Well, not for me it ain't and while normally I wouldn't waste space on items like this, I've simply felt the need to share the pain...

 For starters, every vehicle needs four of the poxy things. This involves separating three links from a longer piece of chain, then opening the link at each end to fit a hook and loop. Both the latter come on various etches lurking in  the scrap box and which are destined to lurk some more too.

 One possible option might be to use the 'eye' below, but to be honest, beyond maybe fitting them to my locos, I really can't think of a reason to do it - and remember, I work in 7mm scale. On top of that, the chains are not going to be connected on the layout, so am caused to wonder why bother?

 I did [mostly] finish a Donegal open the other day and managed to get most of the materials I wanted at Tonbridge yesterday, so have every reason to put the side chains back in the drawer marked 'Do Not Open' for a while - and maybe forever!

[Galteemore]

I never bother with them, David, except on loco buffer beams. And they are a pain….

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

It does look like a pain in the arse

[Northroader]

[David Holman]

Thanks folks, have filed that idea under B. Quite how Gordon did all his Reseau Breton stock on Pempoul like this is beyond me, but that's a master craftsman for you.

[Paul 34F]

David,

Don’t bother other than on locomotives.  The safety chains were even a pain in the rear in 15mm scale, (when I used to dabble in that scale).

Love the look of the open wagon by the way.

Paul

[David Holman]

Speaking of locomotives, after getting a driver and fireman at Tonbridge last weekend, decided to have another look at the Barclay - though as will be revealed, it continues to bite me.

 All went well enough to begin with - the crew got painted and were installed & then I fitted the outside frame springs, applied a bit of weathering and had a go at cleaning up the side tanks, the latter not exactly successful. Spurred on by all this, I decided it was time for a proper test run on Fintonagh, only for things to start unravelling.

 All was well in a straight line - though the High Level motor certainly does NOT like my Gaugemaster hand held controller, which created rampant cogging. I have a more basic W unit, without feedback & the motor is ok with this. However, as soon as I tried running round the loop, stalling and derailment of the front bogie occurred. Was sort of expecting this, as the set up was pretty basic, with just a spring on the 8BA fixing bolt.

 Plan B was to use the same system as on my Sligo Leitrim 0-6-4Ts. This uses a solid pillar, fixed to the chassis & then the bogie has a brass block, which slides on to the pillar. A spring [hopefully] keeps the bogie pressing down on the track and side springs on the block allow a degree of lateral movement too.

 Unfortunately, the bogie is still derailing - most likely because of what the pictures below show, because as it swivels, it creates a sharp angle with the front drivers.

 Points on Fintonagh are 3' radius and I hadn't envisaged any problems. Indeed, with the bogie removed, the loco travers all bar one of the points well enough, apart from a tight spot in the point to the turntable, which a bit of easing ought to solve.

 Any ideas as to what to do about the bogie are welcome. One option might be the old fashioned one outlined by John Ahern 70 years ago. Another thought is to make it a          2-2-6-0 tank, fixing the inner pair of wheels on the bogie [but giving them plenty of side play] and making the front wheels into a pony truck.

 Either way, I really don't want to have to build a new chassis. 

[Tullygrainey]

Bogies!! (grunts, spits in gutter). A pain in the proverbial. You have my sympathies David.

Looking at your pics, a few things occur:

Does the bogie have enough lateral movement? Would a bit more help lessen that sharp angle with the drivers as the loco enters curves?

Are the springs that control lateral movement too strong and are they actually preventing sideways movement? Have you tried running it without the springs? 

I used the Ahern curved slot approach on the bogie for my BCDR 0-6-4 tank. The width of the slot is the only restraint on bogie movement - there are no other wires or springs and the bogie is left to do its own thing. It clatters happily through Peco OO short points and I haven't had any problems with derailing. It's full of lead which also probably helps keep it where it's supposed to be.

In the past, I've noticed that leading bogies without the ability to move sideways often start to tilt instead when they enter a curve. The inside wheels lift off the track and the bogie eventually jump the rails or causes the drivers to derail. It's what prompted me to use a slot. 

Good luck with the debugging.

Alan

Edited February 22 by Tullygrainey
typo

[jhb171achill]

You've the patience of a saint! But the results are always worth it................

[David Holman]

Thanks Alan - that is what I was thinking of. The side control springs are the Kadee knuckler ones, so very light, but with the rear of the bogie so close to the drivers, methinks it needs some better geometry to help it. 

 Plan C will be to remove the central block and add a pivot, from fairly thick brass, as per the Ahern drawing, with that curved slot. Just need to decide how far back to put the pivot point.

[Paul 34F]

David,

May I suggest a quicker solution.  Take a piece of Springy wire and use it instead of a thick brass pivot arm.  The wire could be looped around the screw holding the Keeper Plate in position and the other end pushed through a small hole in the Stretcher of the Bogie.  It should help steer the locomotive better through the curves.

Paul

[Northroader]

I was thinking just try increasing the width of your slot, so’s the bogie can traverse sideways a bit more?

[David Holman]

Thanks folks, after considering all options, in the end decided the old way was probably the best, but when you look at the car crash of my workbench this evening, you can see it was not without much cussing and swearing. Putting stuff away, I counted over 50 different tools and materials - though some of the former were because I couldn't find the original ones in the mess...

 Retained the central pillar and used some 2mm brass to make the pivot, with the added advantage of a bit of extra weight. However, getting it to sit properly was a case of much trial and [even more] error, before finally getting it to sit properly. The loco managed to traverse the whole layout this evening, though some lead weight will be added to the bogie for extra security, as per Alan's suggestions. At least the pivot point has been able to use the same nut/bolt as the front of the keeper plate.

 Number 4 has suffered considerably through all this and is going to need a repaint. One of the dummy springs has come off too. However, I've never been really happy with the lining and lettering, so maybe it is all for the best in the long run.

 All good fun, allegedly.

[Broithe]

With only a very small amount of rearrangement along the back, at the wall, you would have the space for a reasonably substantial swear jar, which would help in reducing the financial shock of future projects.

[Tullygrainey]

Workbench is certainly looks busy but what's the point of having tools if you don't use them

Glad to hear you've made progress with the Barclay David. It will have been worth the effort. It always seems to be the case with loco building that, even though you try to make painting it the very last part of the process, something always conspires to upset that plan and the paintbrushes have to come out again!  However, I always feel that getting the thing running properly is 9/10ths of the task. Once that's achieved, the cosmetics can be tackled with enthusiasm Onward and upward.

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

That's a proper workbench, very interesting whiteboard too

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

That's a proper workbench, very interesting whiteboard too

We'll need to check that weekly...

[Mayner]

Great to see Ahern's Miniature Locomotive Construction used as a reference over 70 years after it was first published.

I use Athern's bogie design in my 4mm GSWR 52 Class kit which is capable of running through Peco small radius points!

Although I was once almost religious about tidiness these days my workbench is a bit of a mess, snatching time for modelling whenever I can between other tasks. 

There is a part assembled MGWR 2-4-0 in there somewhere last worked on a worked on a week or so ago but have not had the time to tidy uo.

[Horsetan]

On 22/2/2024 at 8:20 PM, David Holman said:

 .....Any ideas as to what to do about the bogie are welcome. One option might be the old fashioned one outlined by John Ahern 70 years ago. Another thought is to make it a          2-2-6-0 tank, fixing the inner pair of wheels on the bogie [but giving them plenty of side play] and making the front wheels into a pony truck.

 Either way, I really don't want to have to build a new chassis. 

 

Here's one way of doing it

My understanding is that the bogie frame itself should directly support the main chassis frames and be permitted to slide from side-to-side, and not permitted any vertical movement. Only the bogie axles themselves should be allowed to go up and down.

Chris Pendlenton explains his bogie principles here - he's one of the few who understands how a model bogie should work, and how you get there.

Edited February 24 by Horsetan

[Tullygrainey]

The fact that there are so many ways of tackling the construction and mounting of bogies just illustrates how tricky it is. However the job is approached, it seems to me that to be successful, the design must allow for rotation and sideways movement in the bogie frame and up and down movement in the bogie wheels. 

35 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Here's one way of doing it

My understanding is that the bogie frame itself should directly support the main chassis frames and be permitted to slide from side-to-side, and not permitted any vertical movement. Only the bogie axles themselves should be allowed to go up and down.

Horsetan's suggestions here would seem to fit the bill but I suspect it would need very careful setting up to make sure the bogie, supporting the frame and with no up and down movement, doesn't affect the driving wheels' contact with the rails. I have an Oxford Rail Adams Radial 4-4-2 chassis in which the bogie, even though it does have a little up and down movement, props the driving wheels clear of the track on some occasions. ( yes, I know. Blame the track. I do!)

The bogie on my BCDR 0-6-4T dangles below a chassis spacer like Boris Johnston from a zip wire.  It moves on a central vertical shaft and supports nothing but itself. It's free to rotate and move sideways and the wheels are free to move up and down. It's a nightmare to get it properly railed but once on the tracks, it stays there.

But that's only one way of doing it. Weight distribution was important to the success of this one with enough over the driving wheels to ensure the chassis didn't tip backwards. I also suspect that the wheel arrangement of the loco will have an impact on what works or doesn't.

Alan

[Northroader]

I think with a model the wheels are hardly ever individually sprung like a full size job. If any carrying wheels form a hard point, they’re going to rob the driving wheels of adhesion. Therefore the lead scattered round inside the loco should be arranged so that the centre of gravity is over the drivers, and the bogie, in this case, is allowed to flop about without getting in the way, with enough weight or central springing to ensure it stays on the track.

The Swilly engines look in photos to be a bit careworn, so does it really need an out of shops appearance? Just touch up any bare metal that’s appeared.

[Tullygrainey]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

Great to see Ahern's Miniature Locomotive Construction used as a reference over 70 years after it was first published.

I use Athern's bogie design in my 4mm GSWR 52 Class kit which is capable of running through Peco small radius points!

Although I was once almost religious about tidiness these days my workbench is a bit of a mess, snatching time for modelling whenever I can between other tasks. 

There is a part assembled MGWR 2-4-0 in there somewhere last worked on a worked on a week or so ago but have not had the time to tidy uo.

More evidence of intense activity! John, what's that tool at the front right that looks like a black soup spoon with a wooden handle?

[David Holman]

 Chris Pendleton is at a different level to many of us mortals, having worked in P4 for many years. He also did an eight page article in MRJ on Alex Jackson couplings, in which he improved their reliability to 95%. Doesn't matter how many times I try to read it, my eyes glaze over less than halfway through. Respect, yes, but well beyond my abilities!

 That said, anything that keeps wheels on the track, especially drivers, has to be important, along with as many pickups as possible. 

[Mayner]

16 hours ago, Tullygrainey said:

More evidence of intense activity! John, what's that tool at the front right that looks like a black soup spoon with a wooden handle?

Quite the reverse to intense activity, with very little time available for modelling, I had done hardly anything in the workshop since before Christmas

The black spoon is a Casting Ladle.  I had recently cast woods metal weights for the 650.

I need to clear the clutter from the workbench before I complete the loco.

 

[David Holman]

My much abused Barclay tank is on yet another incarnation, having stripped/sanded the tank and bunker sides back to brass, then reprimed and resprayed to get rid of the Horlicks I'd made of the lettering and lining. It may have looked ok in the photos [though bet you didn't enlarge them], but the reality was a mess I couldn't live with.

 The crew are fixed in place, as is the cab roof and glazing, while the bogie has been weighted with lead. Rather than redo the lettering, with my transfers showing way too much backing film, decided to go with a Swilly 'lozenge' instead. Made a diamond from a piece of plasticard, then held this to the tank side with a small piece of Blutak, before drawing round it with white gel pen. Used the same pen to do the LSR lettering [nowhere near as fancy as the prototype], then, once dry, went over this with orange felt pen. Final [?] tidying up was done with a fine brush dipped in thinners to remove the worst of the blemishes.

 Still not sure about this, as from some angles, the lozenge looks too big, but Swilly engines varied greatly in their livery, ranging from lining & lettering, to nothing at all - the latter has not been ruled out either...

 Judicious used of weathering powders has followed. Pictures show that Swilly engines were well looked after, right to the end. No 4 awaits its builders plates and couplings, but hopefully the pictures show an improvement from before - plus at least it now runs well enough.

 

 Meanwhile, for those interested in such things, a picture of my main 'to do' list, though this changes according to mood. There are many others too!

[Galteemore]

Fabulous work David. For what it’s worth, I think that the Swilly logo is an improvement! 

[David Holman]

 After the delights of a week touring the south of Spain, the return to Blighty seems to have coincided with a series of soft days to rival anything from over the water. A good time to get back to a bit of modelling...

 Am afraid the Barclay has gone through another livery change, though only minor this time. Decided that my Swilly logo attempt wasn't good enough [far too big to my eyes], so it was out with the meths to remove it. Swilly locos varied in having the lozenge, lettering, or even nothing at all, so on the basis that if I can't [yet] get the first two right, then nothing at all is the best option for now.

 Currently on the workbench are two Donegal sliding door vans. These are scratch built, plasticard bodies on Alphagraphix white metal chassis, with Slater's wheels. Plenty of detailing still needed.

[David Holman]

 The builders plates finally arrived for the Barclay tank, so have now been glued in place. Slightly disappointed with them as they are not legible, but they only cost me a fiver, whereas the set I commissioned for Wolf Dog came to over forty quid. You pays your money...

 So. while there are unfinished projects with both Swilly and Donegal wagons, decided it was time to start looking into a brand new project, namely Donegal Railcar number 7. Part of my Swilly-Donegal makeover for Fintonagh involves repainting Clogher Valley Railcar No 1 and likewise making Phoenix out over the Atkinson-Walker tractor. However, I want at least one more railcar and it will need to be one of the earlier models as none of the later, four coupled ones will fit on my turntable. So, number 7 it is, or indeed number 8.  

 They were historic vehicles, being the first ever diesel railcars, certainly in these islands and maybe anywhere. They could haul up to four wagons and often worked in tandem with other railcars. Photos are available & I have a couple of decent drawings, plus there is a useful section in Roger Cromblehome's County Donegal Companion. So should be straightforward then? Well, not exactly it seems.

 The main issue is the chassis, with a scale 14 feet between the rear bogie and the front pony truck. The latter is pivoted just under the driving position on the prototype, but Roger suggests this will not work well on tight curves in model form. The bogie itself is 5'6" wheelbase, which if trying to adapt a 4mm scale one means 38.5mm and so far, have not been able to find anything suitable.

 However Mark Clark's 'Locos & Stuff' website offers a host of  3D printed options and with Mark being a Chatham Club member, this seems the way to go. Mark is also one of life's genuinely clever people who has taught himself 3D printing, in the process learning how these machines actually work. He also understands way more about mechanical things than me & agrees with Roger's description on making the railcar's chassis.

 The photo above shows the basic principles, while those below show my lash up, in plasticard, which I did this morning in an effort to understand how it works myself.

 The wheels are just held in place with tape [they are too big anyway], but despite my doubts, the idea does indeed seem to work. What fuddled my brain most was the single fixing point to the chassis plate [at the front pivot]. The front pony truck swings on this while the motor bogie will pivot from  a second point further back. What wasn't clear [to me anyway] in Roger's drawing is that the main chassis plate [which is fixed to the bodywork] rests on the rear of the motor bogie giving all important weight to this and therefore aiding traction. Anyway, am leaving this to Mark as [like one or two folk on this forum] actually finds this stuff fun!

 So, watch this space.

 Am sure it will not be a quick build and in any case will need to fit round other stuff. However, discovered something that Mayner is no doubt familiar with the other day, in the form of a fine set of large scale drawings for a 1:14.4 [64mm gauge] drawings of the railcars. Scroll down far enough in a Google search and you'll eventually come across them. They appear to be made for what looks like a laser cut wooden kit, but certainly offer a lot of interesting detail.

 

 

[Galteemore]

Excellent David - pushing the frontiers again…..very distinctive vehicles. Railcars/railbuses are dead easy to build so an extra challenge will help sustain interest  

[David Holman]

We wish!

[Tullygrainey]

Lovely project David.The Donegal railcars were really appealing vehicles in all their various forms. I've often thought of trying one but never managed to do anything. I remember perusing that diagram in the Crombleholme book for the first time and struggling to visualise it, never mind try to build it!  Good luck with this one. I will enjoy seeing it develop.