Generator cars for irish coaching stock - specifically HLV

[Junctionmad]

I read through the sticky.

 

Whats not clear is what was used for NON-TL stock, like some cravens and parkroyals. These needed only a HLV ( heating luggage van) , Mention has been made to 4 wheel vans , but I don't remember those and I remember travelling in non-TL stock that had a bogie luggage van.

 

SO what was marshalled with these stock to provide steam heating only.

 

thanks , oh knowledgeable ones

[Glenderg]

Mayner of this parish is yer man, with a 4 wheeled van...

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2639-Tin-and-Hooded-Vans

[Junctionmad]

So there were no bogie HLVs. Were not some of the Dutch HLV only ?

[Garfield]

So there were no bogie HLVs. Were not some of the Dutch HLV only ?

 

All the Dutch vans had generators...

[BSGSV]

All the Dutch vans had generators...

 

Yes, eventually. However, when the Dutch vans were built, they were only steam vans. The electrical generator was added in the 1970's, (about 1973/4?), when TL became increasingly used and more vehicles were converted to the system. The BR vans were the first to come equipped for both steam and electric.

[Garfield]

Yes, eventually. However, when the Dutch vans were built, they were only steam vans. The electrical generator was added in the 1970's, (about 1973/4?), when TL became increasingly used and more vehicles were converted to the system. The BR vans were the first to come equipped for both steam and electric.

 

Ah ha... cheers for the clarification. I don't think I've seen any photos of them prior to being fitted with the generators.

[Junctionmad]

So what did I travel in in 78-79 from LJ to Waterford which at that time was mostly non TL stock , Dutch with just HLV or 4 wheeler HLV( which I don't remember ) or just a GLV. With the generator off ?

[Garfield]

So what did I travel in in 78-79 from LJ to Waterford which at that time was mostly non TL stock , Dutch with just HLV or 4 wheeler HLV( which I don't remember ) or just a GLV. With the generator off ?

 

Some of the six-wheeler steam vans were still in service then, too, so they could be another possibility...

[BSGSV]

Some of the six-wheeler steam vans were still in service then, too, so they could be another possibility...

 

If it was summer, there may just have been a brake standard in the formation as the heating wouldn't have been needed. Yes, I know about Irish summers...

[heirflick]

anyone got a pic of the six wheel steam van?

[WRENNEIRE]

Yes, eventually. However, when the Dutch vans were built, they were only steam vans. The electrical generator was added in the 1970's, (about 1973/4?), when TL became increasingly used and more vehicles were converted to the system. The BR vans were the first to come equipped for both steam and electric.

 

 

How do you think the Dutch Van provided the steam ?

It had to have Power from a Generator that was originally located on top of one of the Water Tanks..

This caused a lot of problems so they relocated it between the two 1,000 Pound Swirley Flow Boilers....

They did not become Gen Vans Till they were Modified for the MK 2a,s.....

Then they had two Generators......

One Cummins which provided Power and Electric Heat when required.....

The small one a Lister, which supplied lighting and Control only, I think?

[BSGSV]

I think a DV provided steam in the same way the 4-wheel heating vans did - Spanner boiler as you say. I don't think the boiler needed a "have power from a generator" per se, as it burned diesel fuel direct, but it would have had to have a control panel and pre-heat. However, I don't believe that would have provided anywhere near the power required to light a train.

The Dutch vans appeared in late 1969. Shortly after the arrival of the first BR vans (January 1972) 3162 was reported in the IRRS Journal as being fitted with a diesel generator. 3158 was reported in mid 1973 with a comment that 1554 was running with it and fitted for AC (which I take to mean AC lighting and not air conditioning). The other vans mentioned in the same vein are in mid-1974 when 3164/5 were fitted and 3166 was in hands. The other vans aren't mentioned, unfortunately.

I therefore am still of the opinion that the Dutch vans were steam providers only originally and were "retro-fitted" with a generator (motor-alternator would be more correct) to provide a TL supply.

 

Listers were certainly used for TL supply, 3223 at DCDR still has a 3-cylinder Lister fitted and working.

[Mayner]

Besides the Dutch and BR vans CIE converted a sizable number of older coaches to Brake Standard and Brake Standard Generator Steam van (BSGV) format in the mid to late 70s mainly to replace the 4 wheelers on Suburban and the remaining branch and cross country trains. http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3340.

 

The Cravens as the most modern conventional stock appear to have been converted to TL lighting at an early stage, the all the Park Royals and even some Laminates were converted by the Mid 1980s.

[Junctionmad]

So for a layout circa 1980 ( +- 5 years), what would have been most likely behind non-TL parkroyals/laminates

[BSGSV]

WRENNEIRE's post prompted me to ponder some more, about Heating vans and Generator vans. The following extracts are from Irish Railway News. I'm not sure this clarifies anything! I don't believe that a 2-cylinder Lister is fitted to any BR vans still about - I'll have a look at 3189 tomorrow. So I'm now wondering if the BR vans were just steam only to start with. Another belief about to go?

 

May 1972 about the new BR vans:

They differ from the previous bogie heating vans, 3157-66, in having only one Spanner boiler. Power for the various fuel and water pumps and also for the combustion system is provided by a diesel-electric generator set mounted in the boiler room. It comprises a Lister 2-cylinder diesel engine giving 21.5 hp at 1,500 rpm. It is permanently coupled to a generator by BKB Electric Motors Ltd, type GP, which gives 380/220 volts AC, 25-8 amps, 3-phase current. Interior lighting is by unshaded domestic-size tungsten lamps.

 

Aug 1972:

It is reported that bogie HV 3162 has been converted to GSV. There are also persistent rumours, so far not confirmed, that the present system of axle-driven dynamos and wet cell batteries as a source of power for train lighting may be dispensed with on some of the existing coaching stock. Instead, the necessary power would be supplied from the GSV. Such a step would have many attractions due to simplified maintenance and the elimination of friction due to the dynamo belts but it is more likely that confusion has stemmed from the arrangement to heat and light the new coaches by power from diesel generator vans.

[Glenderg]

anyone got a pic of the six wheel steam van?

 

 

[josefstadt]

So I'm now wondering if the BR vans were just steam only to start with. Another belief about to go?

 

The BR vans were delivered to CIÉ as GSV's. As you say they were equipped with a single 2000 lb/hour Spanner boiler and a diesel generator set provided the power for the running of the boiler. The earlier heating luggage vans, including the Dutch vans, were Steam vans only and had no electric generating capacity. Power for the operation of the boilers in these vans was provided by batteries charged by axle-driven dynamos.

The BR vans were delivered in January 1972 and in April of that year, during ESB power cuts, they proved to be a great asset to the company when they were placed at strategic locations around the Dublin area to generate electric current which was used to keep signalling systems and track circuiting operating.

[BSGSV]

The BR vans were delivered to CIÉ as GSV's. As you say they were equipped with a single 2000 lb/hour Spanner boiler and a diesel generator set provided the power for the running of the boiler. The earlier heating luggage vans, including the Dutch vans, were Steam vans only and had no electric generating capacity. Power for the operation of the boilers in these vans was provided by batteries charged by axle-driven dynamos.

The BR vans were delivered in January 1972 and in April of that year, during ESB power cuts, they proved to be a great asset to the company when they were placed at strategic locations around the Dublin area to generate electric current which was used to keep signalling systems and track circuiting operating.

 

The BR vans do appear to have been equipped to provide TL from the off. Other sources say the engine produced 32.5 hp, not 21.5 as stated in IRN. Take your pick.

CIE clearly intended to provide TL, even before they had coaches converted.

3189 at DCDR is now equipped with a John Deere engine, a replacement type that also appeared on other vans.

[josefstadt]

So for a layout circa 1980 ( +- 5 years), what would have been most likely behind non-TL parkroyals/laminates

 

The period you are looking at, mid-1970s to mid-1980s, was one of transition - the Mk IId AC stock and the BR vans had arrived in the early 1970s, the programme of converting orthodox (non-AC) stock to TL was progressing steadily and the 4-wheel and 6-wheel vans were being phased out.

 

By November 1978 all the 4-wheel luggage vans had gone as had most of the 4-wheel SHVs - only 11 remaining in traffic. These, along with the four 6-wheel SHVs were by that time mainly employed in the Dublin suburban area. Also by this time all the Cravens, the main line Park Royals, the last series of Laminates (1497-1503), some catering vehicles and about 50% of the 19xx Brake Standard types had been converted to TL (excluding a number of vehicles which had already been withdrawn). The ‘Dutch’ vans had all been converted to TL by November 1978, while the 32xx GSVs/Brake Std GSVs were introduced between 1977 and 1980. On the other hand, the suburban Park Royals and the bulk of the Laminates (1429-96) retained their batteries and axle-driven dynamos. The bogie luggage vans (2548-91) also retained their batteries and axle-driven dynamos. By the end of 1980 all the 4-wheel vans were gone, while a start had been made on the conversion of further Park Royals and Laminates to TL. And, of course, by the end of the period you are looking at the Mk III stock had arrived leading to a further culling of earlier stock.

 

So, I suggest that for Limerick Junction throughout the period in question, mid-1970s to mid-1980s, main line services would have generally been formed by either AC stock or TL fitted Cravens/Park Royals/Laminates operating with bogie GSVs or Brake Standard GSVs. Friday only services would have been composed of a variety of TL and non-TL stock carefully marshalled so that the TL vehicles were all able to be powered by the GSV. Pre-1977 there would have been 4-wheel or 6-wheel SHVs on the Limerick-Limerick Jct and Limerick-Waterford trains during the winter season. After 1977 the 4-wheel/6-wheel vans would, as BSGSV has shown, have been replaced by 32xx type GSVs, possibly operating with non-TL stock. At a later date the 32xx vans would themselves have been replaced by Dutch vans or BR vans as these were displaced from other duties.

 

A trawl through the IRRS journal might throw up images of trains in the LJ area during the period you are interested in, or I'm sure that there would be people there who might be able to give you details of train formations.

[Noel]

Two queries:

 

1. Does TL mean lighting provided along the length or a coach rake by a power van with genie?

2. How were the 'steam heaters' fuelled (Diesel, Gas, Electric, etc)?

[BSGSV]

Two queries:

 

1. Does TL mean lighting provided along the length or a coach rake by a power van with genie?

2. How were the 'steam heaters' fuelled (Diesel, Gas, Electric, etc)?

 

1. TL (Train Lighting) is an electrical system, providing AC electric current for train lights throughout suitably equipped carriages from a vehicle equipped with a motor-alternator set (commonly called a generator van). Generally, such vehicles also provided steam heating, so were Generating (or Generator) Steam Vans, GSV. The use of AC current allowed the use of 240V AC commercially available flourescent and incandescent lamps, against the usual low voltage lamps fitted with the conventional battery + dynamo arrangement. The TL system is 3-phase. The system requires vehicles to have a connecting electrical cable between them, and full connectivity from generator van through to the end of the train to be served.

As josefstadt says, if you had a mix of TL and non-TL vehicles then you needed to make sure the TL vehicles were together and coupled to the generator van, e.g. the 16:32 Connolly-Drogheda of 22/05/87 comprised 022+3217TL+1379TL+1428TL+1456+1460. As the latter pair weren't equipped for TL, they are on their own at the back of the train, allowing the two Park Royals at the front to be fed from the van behind the loco.

 

 

2. The steam vans had a boiler (or boilers) fuelled by diesel. They needed an electricity supply to pump the fuel (generally carried in underfloor tanks) to the boiler, and to control etc. the boiler (something like your domestic boiler arrangement at home).

Edited September 15, 2014 by BSGSV

[Junctionmad]

while the 32xx GSVs/Brake Std GSVs were introduced between 1977 and 1980.

 

 

I obviously have a gap in my knowledge ( and I asked this elsewhere)

 

what were the 32xx GSVs/Brake Std GSVs, they are described elsewhere as " converted stock". Where they steam heat and /or electric gen

 

 

what I mean is that these ( 32xx series )were not the MK1 BSGVs - right ??, where these the conversions from buffet cars etc , ??, what was the original donor carriage

 

 

thanks ( sorry about confusion )

 

Dave

Edited December 1, 2014 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

The DCDR's 3223, which is in traffic and may be seen readily, is one of these. It is a conversion of a former CIE side corridor standard (3rd class when built), these dating from between 1951-3. One of the former side corridor doors can be seen in the guards van end to this day.

[BSGSV]

3223 is a conversion from a Compo, not a standard.

 

For further information on the same topic, see the six wheel heating van thread.

[Mayner]

3223 is a great example of CIEs make do and mend approach to running the railway in the 70s ad DCDR ingenuity.

 

Originally built as a main line composite she was rebuilt into a 2562-2591 series luggage brake with a central guards compartment and two large luggage compartments for parcel and mail trains in the early 1970s.

 

Converted into a Brake Generator Steam Van and re-numbered 3223 around 1980, she appears o have regained her passenger accommodation at Downpatrick and converted to a Brake Second Generator Steam Push-Pull Driving Van

[BSGSV]

3223 is a great example of CIEs make do and mend approach to running the railway in the 70s ad DCDR ingenuity.

 

Originally built as a main line composite she was rebuilt into a 2562-2591 series luggage brake with a central guards compartment and two large luggage compartments for parcel and mail trains in the early 1970s.

 

Converted into a Brake Generator Steam Van and re-numbered 3223 around 1980, she appears o have regained her passenger accommodation at Downpatrick and converted to a Brake Second Generator Steam Push-Pull Driving Van

 

2144 built 1954. One of four of the batch of composites not on Bulleid underframe.

Downgraded to all standard 1611, 1972.

Converted to bogie luggage van 2572, late 1973 or early 1974.

Converted to BSGSV 3223, late 1980 or early 1981.

 

The re-instatement of the passenger accommodation was CIE's doing. When you look at the luggage van, all they did was to take out a window bay and substitute double-doors. Relatively easy to remove the doors and put back in the panel (probably salvaged from a vehicle going for scrap). When the passenger accommodation was put back in, CIE used bus type seats (giving 43 seats if memory serves). The former standard class area became the site for boiler and generator.

Edited December 3, 2014 by BSGSV

[StevieB]

Apart from the obvious differences in appearance, were the 6w heating vans the same length as the 4w ones?

 

Stephen

[josefstadt]

Apart from the obvious differences in appearance, were the 6w heating vans the same length as the 4w ones?

 

Stephen

 

They were all 30' 0" long over headstocks.

[StevieB]

Thanks for that - does anyone have a drawing of the 6w heating van, please?

 

Stephen

[Noel]

 

Old thread but a question to quench my curiosity. What function did the bockety looking boxes under the buffer beams have? Were they some sort of weight or storage tank?

 

These vans had a nice curved side profile.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Noel

[Garfield]

Old thread but a question to quench my curiosity. What function did the bockety looking boxes under the buffer beams have? Were they some sort of weight or storage tank?

 

These vans had a nice curved side profile.

 

They're storage tanks. Not sure of the exact arrangement on those particular GSVs, but I think the underslung tanks may have been for water, with fuel oil carried internally. I'm open to correction on this, though.

 

The side profile was intended to match that of the Cravens coaches.

[Noel]

They're storage tanks. Not sure of the exact arrangement on those particular GSVs, but I think the underslung tanks may have been for water, with fuel oil carried internally. I'm open to correction on this, though.

 

The side profile was intended to match that of the Cravens coaches.

 

Thanks. Were the tanks always fitted to these vans? I vaguely remember seeing photos of models some with, some without the tanks.

[Weshty]

Cracking photo from Glenderg, never seen that before.

[Garfield]

Thanks. Were the tanks always fitted to these vans? I vaguely remember seeing photos of models some with, some without the tanks.

 

The only photo I've seen of one without the tanks was at Inchicore, so they could have been removed for maintenance. I'm not sure about the six-wheelers, but some vans could have the boilers, etc. removed during the summer months when heating wasn't needed, to provide extra luggage capacity.

[flange lubricator]

That's a picture form the O'Dea collection at the National Library, note the new craven in the background.

Edited November 13, 2015 by flange lubricator

[GSR 800]

Scribbled onto to it can be seen "not to rou...shunt" rough shunt maybe?