Crowd funded models

[richrua]

Now this is a superb idea for Irish railway modellers. Shows it can be done.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/page/74/DJ_Models_Class_71_Project

[Warbonnet]

Now this is a superb idea for Irish railway modellers. Shows it can be done.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/page/74/DJ_Models_Class_71_Project

 

Kickstarter projects seem to be becoming more fashionable in the UK. It could work here for certain models (thinking A and C classes). However, you would need a manufacturer on board. Another example of this is the N gauge pendolino http://www.ngaugependolino.com/. This has been organised by two guys who have approached the Canadian Rapido trains to make the models. They need 800 pledges (ie, money up front) in two months for it to work. Rapido do the necessary CAD work and manufacture in their factory in China. If they do not get enough pledges in that time then you get your money back.

 

It could work, but as a wee straw poll; How many here would pay, say 180.00 Euro up front for an all singing, all dancing A Class that they might not see for 18 months - 2 years?

[Blaine]

Kickstarter projects seem to be becoming more fashionable in the UK. It could work here for certain models (thinking A and C classes). However, you would need a manufacturer on board. Another example of this is the N gauge pendolino http://www.ngaugependolino.com/. This has been organised by two guys who have approached the Canadian Rapido trains to make the models. They need 800 pledges (ie, money up front) in two months for it to work. Rapido do the necessary CAD work and manufacture in their factory in China. If they do not get enough pledges in that time then you get your money back.

 

It could work, but as a wee straw poll; How many here would pay, say 180.00 Euro up front for an all singing, all dancing A Class that they might not see for 18 months - 2 years?

 

Given that sales of Murphy models have slowed right down over the last 12 months - doubtful. Also everyone would say 'ah yeah Ill have one' yet you would need a large set of boltcutters to open their wallets.... Saying it like it is, also if it was for A/C's you would need 2 mouldings for each, (pre/post rebuild), the plus side being there would be 6 mainstream liveries for each model, then theres the small variants

[aclass007]

I'd certainly pay........

 

How many manufacturers out there are offering this option? It's alright paying upfront, but you'd need to have faith that you'd get a quality product in return. Could this be an option with Murphy Models? If it was, then at least we'd have someone with a passion for the model, and who has delivered in the past, producing it.

Hattons commissioned Heljan to produce a model of the Co Bo, the UK Metropolitan Vickers, a few years ago. As far as I know they produced a good model. Maybe another option?

[leslie10646]

Also everyone would say 'ah yeah Ill have one' yet you would need a large set of boltcutters to open their wallets....

 

Ah, no, Blaine, that's the beauty of the Kickstarter idea - you have to pay UP FRONT - no pay, no get

 

Not do sure I want the A Class - two of John Hazelton's ones already - but .......

 

It might offer Paddy a way to get a single-ended yankie out sooner?

 

Paddy, you can have the Euros from me tomorrow (for a grey one!), if you launch one of these schemes. Can't say fairer than that and I'm a steam man.

 

Mind you - what about a J15 / 101 Class?

 

Leslie

[aclass007]

Ah, no, Blaine, that's the beauty of the Kickstarter idea - you have to pay UP FRONT - no pay, no get

 

Not do sure I want the A Class - two of John Hazelton's ones already - but .......

 

It might offer Paddy a way to get a single-ended yankie out sooner?

 

Paddy, you can have the Euros from me tomorrow (for a grey one!), if you launch one of these schemes. Can't say fairer than that and I'm a steam man.

 

Mind you - what about a J15 / 101 Class?

 

Leslie

 

There's the first problem. Deciding on which model to produce. This would be difficult at the best of times, but if there's any hope of it working we all need to row in behind the one model.

[DiveController]

Good morning everybody. I think this has all been discussed before in another thread. I would also pay upfront for a model. The thing is I might take two or more models eventually but it will be difficult to pledge for more than one model upfront untill the quality of the motor and quality of the body shell could be seen. I suspect that the reason some people will not want to pay cash up front is because the product is on scene and it is really issue of the policy. Paperwork into model shop and see the model in front of them their wallets tend to loosen up.

I'm definitely In the market for an A class, likely several if it was the same quality as MM.

[Warbonnet]

I'd certainly pay........

 

How many manufacturers out there are offering this option? It's alright paying upfront, but you'd need to have faith that you'd get a quality product in return. Could this be an option with Murphy Models? If it was, then at least we'd have someone with a passion for the model, and who has delivered in the past, producing it.

Hattons commissioned Heljan to produce a model of the Co Bo, the UK Metropolitan Vickers, a few years ago. As far as I know they produced a good model. Maybe another option?

 

That's my fear personally; Will it look like the model I want, or if there's a big glaring error after I paid and I dont want it then what do I do? I want an A that looks like an A for instance. It's one reason I havent bothered with the Silver Fox variant. (I'm just using the A class as an example)

 

It could be an option for Murphy, but it could work with others too. I'd have faith in Rapido for instance as their track record is fantastic. However, they might not want to know about it as it's outside their core interests.

 

Shop commission is another option indeed, but I cant see the retailers here going for it in these uncertain times. I know one looked at it when times were still relatively good but when you have to pony up over 100 grand in advance it would put most off.

 

I chose the A as an example as a few were wishlisting one on here in recent weeks, but indeed it could be any project. It would have to have a widespread appeal amongst Irish modellers though and have plenty of livery variants for a relatively standardised design for it to work.

[Warbonnet]

Good morning everybody. I think this has all been discussed before in another thread. I would also pay upfront for a model. The thing is I might take two or more models eventually but it will be difficult to pledge for more than one model upfront untill the quality of the motor and quality of the body shell could be seen. I suspect that the reason some people will not want to pay cash up front is because the product is on scene and it is really issue of the policy. Paperwork into model shop and see the model in front of them their wallets tend to loosen up.

I'm definitely In the market for an A class, likely several if it was the same quality as MM.

 

This demonstrates why the Kickstarter model of doing things probably wont work here; people want to see what they're getting before committing. I think if the drivetrain specs were laid out and guaranteed from the beginning it would be enough for me personally to commit or otherwise. However, the all important shape is another thing!

 

I also agree with Ed. Plenty of people are all talk until it comes to the crunch. Kickstarter would certainly get them to put their money where their mouth is. Maybe it could be a filter for such spoofers in the future! "Well you had the chance to put the cash up for one and you didnt bother, so stop moaning about it and saying you want one now!"

[aclass007]

That's my fear personally; Will it look like the model I want, or if there's a big glaring error after I paid and I dont want it then what do I do? I want an A that looks like an A for instance. It's one reason I havent bothered with the Silver Fox variant. (I'm just using the A class as an example)

 

It could be an option for Murphy, but it could work with others too. I'd have faith in Rapido for instance as their track record is fantastic. However, they might not want to know about it as it's outside their core interests.

 

Shop commission is another option indeed, but I cant see the retailers here going for it in these uncertain times. I know one looked at it when times were still relatively good but when you have to pony up over 100 grand in advance it would put most off.

 

I chose the A as an example as a few were wishlisting one on here in recent weeks, but indeed it could be any project. It would have to have a widespread appeal amongst Irish modellers though and have plenty of livery variants for a relatively standardised design for it to work.

 

When I read your comment of ponying up 100 grand, my initial thought was there's no way we could raise that on the Irish scene. Then I did some calculations... Let's just say €200 per model up front. That would require 500 prepaid units. When you consider that most of the individual locos that Murphy Models produced were produced in batches of 500, and sold out, then maybe it's not such an impossibility after all...

[Warbonnet]

When I read your comment of ponying up 100 grand, my initial thought was there's no way we could raise that on the Irish scene. Then I did some calculations... Let's just say €200 per model up front. That would require 500 prepaid units. When you consider that most of the individual locos that Murphy Models produced were produced in batches of 500, and sold out, then maybe it's not such an impossibility after all...

 

Definitely not impossible, but a big task. The prepaid issue still stands though, but for what it's worth I'd have two!

[DiveController]

Definitely not impossible, but a big task. The prepaid issue still stands though, but for what it's worth I'd have two!

 

We could do a straw poll on the site jut to gauge interest " if you're undecided/not prepared to put your money up front, DO NOT pledge any interest". We would have to decide on a model, so far an A seems to be generating most interest. I think the idea of having several liveries as suggested makes it possible as the appeal would be wider. And of course someone who is knowledgeable enough to review the CAD very closely prior to tooling etc. Maybe the CAD could be put-on the site (or a separate site for the project) for crowd approval so help ensure QA to everyone's liking. I like the idea of doing it through PM too if that's possible. Also this would also be a technically a "not-for-profit" model so actually it should cost less than a standard rtr model.

Edited November 16, 2014 by DiveController

[Warbonnet]

We could do a straw poll on the site jut to gauge interest " if you're not undecided/not prepared to put your money up front, DO NOT pledge any interest". We would have to decide on a model, so far an A seems to be generating most interest. I think the idea of having several liveries as suggested makes it possible as the appeal would be wider. And of course someone who is knowledgeable enough to review the CAD very closely prior to tooling etc. Maybe the CAD could be put-on the site (or a separate site for the project) for crowd approval so help ensure QA to everyone's liking. I like the idea of doing it through PM too if that's possible. Also this would also be a technically a "not-for-profit" model so actually it should cost less than a standard rtr model.

 

I'll have a chat with the boss and see if we can set something up on the site for this if that's of interest to people?

[DiveController]

Thanks, war bonnet. If anyone else has any interest in this, please get on this thread or forever hold your peace about availability of more good quality Irish outline models

[BosKonay]

I'll see about adding a poll to gather numbers? I for one would happily support any such project. I've preordered Rapids hst for example and have zero trouble paying up for what undoubtedly will be s great model and good investment.

[dave182]

I've often wondered about crowd funding and it has it pros and cons for sure. I think a more realistic proposal for me, and this is just a suggestion and would need agreement from all parties...

 

We know that the 121 loco is probably the next release on the radar from Murphy Models. The catch is that sales have slowed generally and production costs have gone up. So I'm guessing Paddy Murphy and his retailers are nervous about investing in this next release.

 

I'm wondering would Murphy Models 'manage' and fast track this next release if crowd funding could raise a certain percentage of the cost. So let's say for example that Paddy agreed to go to production if €50k was raised in advance. So let's say 334 people commit €150 each then we have €50k to pledge to this project. When the model is released you have a credit with MM for €150.

 

The reason I would suggest this is as follows:

-We have a proven quality track record in Murphy Models

-Murphy Models have existing channels of communication with the manufactures and a track record, so not starting completely from scratch

-The 121 model would suit an american outfit like rapido as a first venture into Irish modeling

-I'm sure MM have done some groundwork already in preparation for bringing this model into production, so a quicker turnaround

-Finally, it works in MMs favour as it signals commitment and he can produce a percentage more for his traditional retail customers

 

It's just a suggestion but I feel it's the most realistic and achievable in the current climate. I think the 121 will probably have a similar production cost to the 141/181s so we all know what we're dealing with. I think it would be a good test scenario for crowd funding an Irish Model, and if it worked out the I think both us as Modellers, and someone like Murphy Models or one of the retailers, would be happier to take on a commission like an A Class or C Class in the future. That's my input!

Edited November 16, 2014 by dave182

[DiveController]

Yes I think these are all very good points. Of course these two ideas do not need to be mutually exclusive but for all of those waiting for the 121 to come into production that might realistically help speed it along. Incidentally those of you have your finger on the pulse, can you hypothesize why sales have slowed down. I was not aware of this since I have been purchasing lots and stuff recently,my main problem being lack of availability of the items that I need.

[Glenderg]

Has anybody approached any of the above - dj models, dapol, paddy murphy, rapido etc.? to see if this would work in theory?

 

Just from my own limited experience, doing cad for the likes of a H van, or bullied open would be far easier, and if successful with an established manufacturer, would lead to further projects, like Kernow has been doing for some time. An A-class straight out of the box is delusional for a loco - a D or E class would be far more realistic. Just my tuppenceworth. R.

[RedRich]

I agree Richie regarding an A class. I would be interested if it wasn't something that was already available from a rtr or kit manufacturer. Freight models like a cement bubble, double bodied beet. or ballast wagon would be a great starting point. I could also see the price for a top of the range correctly modeled A class being more expensive than the prices mentioned. When the 201 price increase kicks in it could be close to 200 notes. That is for a model that was first agreed between MM and the manufacturer 3-4 years ago. Prices at the manufacturing and design stage have and are rising. I would be delighted to participate in a venture like this, but not for an A class.

 

Rich,

[DiveController]

I'll see about adding a poll to gather numbers? I for one would happily support any such project. I've preordered Rapids hst for example and have zero trouble paying up for what undoubtedly will be s great model and good investment.

 

Thanks for support, BK

[DiveController]

Has anybody approached any of the above - dj models, dapol, paddy murphy, rapido etc.? to see if this would work in theory?

 

Just from my own limited experience, doing cad for the likes of a H van, or bullied open would be far easier, and if successful with an established manufacturer, would lead to further projects, like Kernow has been doing for some time. An A-class straight out of the box is delusional for a loco - a D or E class would be far more realistic. Just my tuppenceworth. R.

 

Glenderg, can you please explain your reasons for your psychiatric diagnosis and why a D or E would be a more reasonable choice?

Any model that would be potentially chosen would need to have wide appeal, so everyone is hankering after a D or E class? Remember, not everyone will kit build for whatever reasons, and it may be that, (say) an A would not appeal to those modelers who've already built one. It was suggested on this thread due to the twitter on the site regarding the lack of an excellent A class model in terms of running chracteristics as well as an accurate detailed bodyshell.

May be we should do a poll on what people are actually after in their hearts, "' if only they would make a ......". Maybe one of two choices for what they would want (i.e. put money up front for, right now if needed), tally the results and see if any one model on there has maybe 500 wishers

Edited November 16, 2014 by DiveController

[DiveController]

I agree Richie regarding an A class. I would be interested if it wasn't something that was already available from a rtr or kit manufacturer. Freight models like a cement bubble, double bodied beet. or ballast wagon would be a great starting point. I could also see the price for a top of the range correctly modeled A class being more expensive than the prices mentioned. When the 201 price increase kicks in it could be close to 200 notes. That is for a model that was first agreed between MM and the manufacturer 3-4 years ago. Prices at the manufacturing and design stage have and are rising. I would be delighted to participate in a venture like this, but not for an A class.

 

 

Rich,

 

OK, Rich. We understand that there are models everyone desires, I would love all of the above in rtr too but to keep this on thread for a locomotive that you'd be willing to pay up front for, what would you like to see?

[heirflick]

For me it has to be the A class. I have no problem paying up front for a quality model it.

[Dave]

121 and A class for me, I would be happy to pay up front.

[BosKonay]

Poll created here

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/3767-Would-you-prepay-for-a-model?p=59117

Edited November 16, 2014 by BosKonay

[Glenderg]

Glenderg, can you please explain your reasons for your psychiatric diagnosis and why a D or E would be a more reasonable choice?

Any model that would be potentially chosen would need to have wide appeal, so everyone is hankering after a D or E class? Remember, not everyone will kit build for whatever reasons, and it may be that, (say) an A would not appeal to those modelers who've already built one. It was suggested on this thread due to the twitter on the site regarding the lack of an excellent A class model in terms of running chracteristics as well as an accurate detailed bodyshell.

May be we should do a poll on what people are actually after in their hearts, "' if only they would make a ......". Maybe one of two choices for what they would want (i.e. put money up front for, right now if needed), tally the results and see if any one model on there has maybe 500 wishers

 

Yes I can, and will, though it won't be in any way psychiatric unfortunately.

 

The D and E class locos are a rather simple affair, with little variation within their classes, and given the existence of the E Class, a survey and a CAD work up is possible. Also, the chassis is relatively easy - a powered pair of axles and a dummy axle at the front to suit the rather offset axle arrangements. Also the cost of design, dcc, lighting and cab would be significantly less than that required of a 6 axle all wheel pickup all drive chassis. I've already done the CAD for such a project and produced a prototype, but trust me, the amount of research and design that has gone into it runs into about 80 hours. €€€ -> that cost goes into the model.

 

Just for the craic here are some shots of it - this isn't a sales pitch or anything like it either.

 

 

 

At least I can crank out prototypes here, I don't have to send a CAD model to China, take a trip over and confirm the mould etc. Also more €€€ -> model, but I also can't produce 50 or 500 of them

 

Now the reason I mentioned an easy start is that this 22' flat model below took about 30 hours to design, and that's after the third prototype, but it's not a huge investment in either time or material. I know it's a "cheat" version designed to have structural integrity, but looks the part when a 20' container is stuck on top. I can't see why this, brake gear and all, would be such a hard act to produce in China, and moreso, sell in buckets. I'm sure Mayners superior version also took some time and prototyping - that would apply to Dapol, MM etc.

 

If successful, it would give a manufacturer the confidence to roll onto other more mature subjects.

 

 

That brings me onto the A-class. I'm not sure how many hundreds of hours I've put into this, and researching of various production techniques, to try to keep costs down, but I think on last tot, it was around €275 for a rtr version. Frankly that's absolute nonsense, and in order to bring it into the domain of most punters, can be no more than the 201's. And yes, the CAD has been done, all unpaid for as yet. Have a cab shot.

 

 

What I'm trying to get across is the sheer amount of bloody time, skill, money, effort and sweat it takes to get these things designed, no less plastic squirted into a mould, before a finished product is ever in ones greasy paw, and unless you get these four stars in perfect alignment, you will see sweet sod all, kickstarter or no.

 

- perfect cad work and technical design

- large financial backer

- experienced manufacturer

- a way sell the models ala Kernow

[DiveController]

Nice post, GD. I hear all your points and agree that there must be a huge amount of work to be put in to ensure that the model is somethng that people will be happy with in the end. Personally I don't really like the D/E but that being siad I might well buy one if they became available even if I hadn't put money upfront for it and if excess was available. I know some of the issues raised about the SF A class was the slow running characteristics over points etc. and wonder if a DCC with a stay alive would be capable of delivering that or not in the D/E. I presume your doing these with 3-D printing? But yes, we would need a few more than you could produce.

With regard to the four things you list I think that some of them are already met in terms of the financial backing being the upfront payments and you would deliver the models to the prepaid buyers unless you're producing excess. It goes without say that the manufacturer would be very important and probably your first point is the most important of all. Cast your vote on the poll with your suggestions for the D/E and who knows......

PS nice looking cab there

Edited November 17, 2014 by DiveController
typo

[Glenderg]

Cheers Dive, but at somewhere between money and the seller there has to be either an independent project manager to tie the whole lot together, or like Kernow, Mark's or Graham's to be the face of the project. That's a tough goat to wrestle right there.

 

The A-Class is a prototype for someone who has already provided a chassis and 3D printing is the only solution for the cab. Unlikely to released into the wild. R.

[RedRich]

OK, Rich. We understand that there are models everyone desires, I would love all of the above in rtr too but to keep this on thread for a locomotive that you'd be willing to pay up front for, what would you like to see?

 

To be honest I am strictly a modeler of a certain period and an A class doesn't suit what I am interested in. If I had a spare 150 + notes even though I have some 071's, I would buy another one as it suits the time frame I want to capture, and is a cracking model.

 

The 121 is an iconic loco for me as it is the first GM built loco CIE purchased. It suits the period and geographical location I want to recreate. Richies post makes sense and I think that the price for what people would want, assuming it is an A class that gets the most ayes would be more than what is being mooted here.

 

I'll stick to the 121 as the next diesel loco model I would want, and seeing as PM has it ear marked for the future albeit going to plan with current sales of other models, that's where I would spend my cash.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Lovely models Richie. Really liking the wagon flats.

 

Rich,

[Mayner]

Interesting topic I suppose the most critical thing is a structure to safeguard the money invested in the fund until the goods arrives. Funding Paddy Murphy, or one of the more established model shops to commission a rtr model seems to be the best option for a mass produced model.

 

There is also the option of commissioning a limited run of rtr models through some of the professional model maker that post on this site.

 

I suppose one of the key questions is whether modellers investing money up front on a new model would have a depressing effect on the sales of Murphy Models current range and on smaller manufacturers.

 

Richie that E Class is a beautiful looking job, I looked at producing a version combining resin casting and etched detail 3-4 years ago, if you are interested I may be able to sort out a set of detail parts including buffer beams, cab windows, roof, engine compartment, doors & grills

[richrua]

thanks glenderg. a very interesting post from a very experienced person

[Blaine]

Ah, no, Blaine, that's the beauty of the Kickstarter idea - you have to pay UP FRONT - no pay, no get

 

They still would not pay - in the words of Homer J Simpson - 'Why cant someone else do it'

 

Not do sure I want the A Class - two of John Hazelton's ones already - but .......

 

Complete muck, does not look right at all and overpriced - yet people buy them....... Pity people wont vote with their feet like they did with several of Heljan and Bachmanns offerings

[coalyard blues]

Has to be a preserved loco jeep, 101, S class that could be run with modern stock

[Fintail]

A class or 121 diesel 800 or j class for steam