Macmine Junction

[jhb171achill]

Some of those look black'n'tan, but the tan isn't quite orange enough, and they have no CIE logos on their sides.....

[Glenderg]

Some of those look black'n'tan, but the tan isn't quite orange enough, and they have no CIE logos on their sides.....

 

And whatcha reckon on the shade of grass - pre CIE or post?

[jhb171achill]

Gotta be UTA because it has no flying snail, unless they're in the sky....

[minister_for_hardship]

Cattle Market Dublin 50's/1960's.

 

 

 

All appear to be either completely or largely black or red, white-ish or mottled red/white. No clearly defined black/white Friesians at all. Believe they only started appearing in numbers from 70's onwards. So Kerrys/Dexters/Shorthorns would be the main breeds at the time with Shorthorns probably being the more numerous. Here we go...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthorn#/media/File:Light_Roan_Shorthorn_Heifer_DSCN1872b.jpg

 

Lots of horned cattle can be seen which is almost unknown now, horn buds are destroyed in calves to stop them growing for safety when handling and to stop them getting caught in feeders etc.

Edited January 28, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[Mayner]

Now that's what a railway SHOULD look like! Ye can keep your railcars!

 

Good to see accurate rendition of both the earlier dark green and the later lighter green, especially the darker on the A; only a very few got this treatment, the vast bulk of them being the lighter green like B101. (I believe A46 was the first dark green A, and there were only 2 or 3 others in dark green; maybe they found old paint, because when any "A"'s were repainted from initial silver, the dark green livery was by now only used on buses - anything green on the railway was the lighter colour).

 

Also, a very typical feature of the period which I don't think I've seen on a model before is the older wooden coach in the pre-1955 dark green with full light green lining, along with newer carriages in the post-1955 mid green with simplified light green lining.

 

It's easy to see how "odd", and "foreign" the new 121s seemed in that setting.

 

cattle trucks everywhere - absolutely standard in those days, and almost obligatory for a late 50s / early 60s CIE layout - as are "C" class locos.

 

Excellent work.

 

There is a great John Langford colour photo of a BUT railcar set on the 7:25 Westland Row passenger at Macmine Junction in June 1962, every vehicle in the set is in a different livery!

 

The train is lead by a single ended BUT car c904n in the later CIE lined green, followed by a GNR brake 3rd in blue and cream, followed by a BUT railcar in black and tan, the fourth vehicle appears to be a 4w TPO in the unpainted aluminium livery.

 

The train is at the Rosslare end of the Waterford platform and what looks like a diesel loco and coach are just about visible at the Northern end of the platform. Its possible that the railcar and loco hauled 10:00 am Wexford-Waterford passenger have drawn into the same platform to exchange mail and parcel traffic or possibly attach a parcel van with traffic for New Ross and Waterford.

[Horsetan]

Some of those look black'n'tan, but the tan isn't quite orange enough, and they have no CIE logos on their sides.....

 

Sure now? 'cos I thought they were black but, when I looked closely, they turned out to be a very very very very very very very very very very very dark blue.

[jhb171achill]

I've seen that pic, and others like it. That was an absolutely fascinating time in Irish railway history, when there were 1880s six wheelers hauled by brand new C class locos with brand new tin vans at the end, or 1870s steam engines hauling brand new laminate coaches!

 

I have seen a pic of a train in Killarney made up of:

 

Green A hauling

Green laminate

Silver tin van

Black'n'tan 1902/3 GSWR open third

Green tin van

 

As I've mentioned before, similar to the one Mayner mentioned, a local train li Lisburn consisting of -

 

UTA green AEC car

UTA "sectorised" blue and cream K15 GNR coach

NIR maroon and grey AEC car....

 

Today - CAFs and ICRs. From Midleton to Derry. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Edited January 28, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Irishrailwayman]

Now that's what a railway SHOULD look like! Ye can keep your railcars!

 

Good to see accurate rendition of both the earlier dark green and the later lighter green, especially the darker on the A; only a very few got this treatment, the vast bulk of them being the lighter green like B101. (I believe A46 was the first dark green A, and there were only 2 or 3 others in dark green; maybe they found old paint, because when any "A"'s were repainted from initial silver, the dark green livery was by now only used on buses - anything green on the railway was the lighter colour).

 

Also, a very typical feature of the period which I don't think I've seen on a model before is the older wooden coach in the pre-1955 dark green with full light green lining, along with newer carriages in the post-1955 mid green with simplified light green lining.

 

It's easy to see how "odd", and "foreign" the new 121s seemed in that setting.

 

cattle trucks everywhere - absolutely standard in those days, and almost obligatory for a late 50s / early 60s CIE layout - as are "C" class locos.

 

Excellent work.

 

Thanks for that. I have to say John's work is pure art.

 

What I try to do for rolling stock is to select the best of whatever RTR or kits are available and knock them into better shape. No one element is perfect but I try to catch the overall sense of the scene. Many of the attached photos/models are fashioned with the scenes portrayed in the "Irish Railways in Colour" books in mind. As someone said, there is always more that can be done - I need to dull down and muddy the tyres of those road vehicles...

 

Also, there has been a lot of debate on which green is which for CIE. The reality is that no one knows for sure at this remove so I have tried to identify currently available shades that might be useful in modelling. The A Class is a Silver Fox RTR (I must check with John Hazleton what shade he uses). For the B101 (Studio Scale Models kit) I used Phoenix Paints P50 LNER Doncaster green. The wooden coach is the Murphy Models offering while the Laminate and Park Royal are from Irish Freight Models painted in Revell SM364 Leaf Green Silk which I think is fairly convincing. I have a Humbrol Beige Green Matt paint to hand which I think will pass as the Eau-de-nil or CIE green stripes.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Irishrailwayman

[Kirley]

Thanks for that Irish..., it's always good to have a reference as to what paints to use.

[jhb171achill]

".........Also, there has been a lot of debate on which green is which for CIE. The reality is that no one knows for sure at this remove........."

 

Thankfully, there are definitive examples available. The darker green - actual stuff - is on two of the coats of arms in "Headhunters" railway museum in Enniskillen; the DUTC one and the actual "Flying Snail" itself - the latter, of course, being an original also shows the correct shade for the "eau-de-nil" and the gold lining of same. On a larger scale, No. 800 in Cultra is painted using actual CIE paint in Inchicore - Cultra didn't paint it, they simply (incorrectly) added the "G S" letters.

 

The lighter green used after 1955 has been seen accurately portrayed in recent years on the RPSI's Dublin "Heritage" set, and on the TPO and G611 at Downpatrick. However, in the case of all of these vehicles, care should be exercised; all are badly faded now from when they were painted, and thus my not be taken any longer as good examples. But they certainly show accurately enough what this colour was like when very badly faded and weathered.

 

Another thing I notice on that layout, and which is surprisingly rarely modelled - the cattle bank - an absolutely essential part of I am sure 95% of Irish railway stations. Yet again, very well done!

Edited January 28, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Junctionmad]

Being a country lad

 

Friesians ( or more correctly Holstein Friesians) become increasing popular in Ireland during the 50s, but only in dairy herds, traditionally , large dairy herds of the type seen today , were uncommon in ireland, mixed farms being the dominant type, with Shorthorn being the most common breed.

 

howver the breeding association in Ireland was set up in 1921, so there must have been some importation

 

The Friesian colour scheme is a result of the selective breeding programme.

 

the breed is used for meat in southern europe , but less so in Northern europe

[jhb171achill]

When I'm dealing with tourists, I explain Irish cattle them, as we pass them in fields.

 

The brown ones are for beef and dairying.

The cream ones are for Bailey's Liqueur.

The black and white ones are for Guinness.

 

Can anyone prove me wrong?

[Junctionmad]

When I'm dealing with tourists, I explain Irish cattle them, as we pass them in fields.

 

The brown ones are for beef and dairying.

The cream ones are for Bailey's Liqueur.

The black and white ones are for Guinness.

 

Can anyone prove me wrong?

 

I suggest you apply for a bord filthy grant actually , its so believable

[jhb171achill]

Tis true, Junctionmad; totally true. It said so in the Evening Herald, so it must be.

[minister_for_hardship]

When I'm dealing with tourists, I explain Irish cattle them, as we pass them in fields.

 

The brown ones are for beef and dairying.

The cream ones are for Bailey's Liqueur.

The black and white ones are for Guinness.

 

Can anyone prove me wrong?

 

Are Leprechaun hunts part of the tour itinerary for our American friends?

[jhb171achill]

Only in Co. Clare, Minister. Everyone knows there are none anywhere else....

 

It has been suggested that there's one in Dublin, living up in the Aras.... naturally, I didn't say that.

[GSR 800]

Sure now? 'cos I thought they were black but, when I looked closely, they turned out to be a very very very very very very very very very very very dark blue.

 

Don't go there man! Battleships, fencing and tea end up getting involved!

[Irishrailwayman]

".........Also, there has been a lot of debate on which green is which for CIE. The reality is that no one knows for sure at this remove........."

 

Thankfully, there are definitive examples available. The darker green - actual stuff - is on two of the coats of arms in "Headhunters" railway museum in Enniskillen; the DUTC one and the actual "Flying Snail" itself - the latter, of course, being an original also shows the correct shade for the "eau-de-nil" and the gold lining of same. On a larger scale, No. 800 in Cultra is painted using actual CIE paint in Inchicore - Cultra didn't paint it, they simply (incorrectly) added the "G S" letters.

 

The lighter green used after 1955 has been seen accurately portrayed in recent years on the RPSI's Dublin "Heritage" set, and on the TPO and G611 at Downpatrick. However, in the case of all of these vehicles, care should be exercised; all are badly faded now from when they were painted, and thus my not be taken any longer as good examples. But they certainly show accurately enough what this colour was like when very badly faded and weathered.

 

Another thing I notice on that layout, and which is surprisingly rarely modelled - the cattle bank - an absolutely essential part of I am sure 95% of Irish railway stations. Yet again, very well done!

 

Good to note these prototypes. The question for modellers remains: which paint type currently available most closely matches these originals in 4mm? Perhaps others have identified sources other than those mentioned by me...

 

John tells me that the bank was originally set up with fences etc for marshalling cattle but later on was used as a means of loading sugar beet from road trucks onto railway wagons.

[jhb171achill]

 

John tells me that the bank was originally set up with fences etc for marshalling cattle but later on was used as a means of loading sugar beet from road trucks onto railway wagons.

 

Yes. This was common practice especially in the west. Remains of some cattle banks are still to be seen nowadays here and there, usually buried under piles of spent ballast, weeds and old track panels thrown aside.

[Broithe]

Remains of some cattle banks are still to be seen nowadays here and there, usually buried under piles of spent ballast, weeds and old track panels thrown aside.

 

Ballybrophy's was still extant in 2008.

 

 

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Yes. This was common practice especially in the west. Remains of some cattle banks are still to be seen nowadays here and there, usually buried under piles of spent ballast, weeds and old track panels thrown aside.

 

Criss cross patterns in the concrete surface of the bank (to stop cattle from slipping in the wet) and signage like this were usually in the environs of a cattle bank.

 

 

Here's a clip from the 1970's with Friesians (for the cow gricers) being loaded...

 

[jhb171achill]

You'll also often see modern remains with a platform apparently way higher than normal platform height; this was more recent, for beet lorries to back up so they could tip beet into open wagons.

 

Top pic P84 Rails through the West; Tubbercurry (distance, left)

 

Top P71 Kiltimagh (left)

 

P38, bottom, Craughwell

 

Pages 34 and 36, top in each case; Ardrahan. On P34 you can just see the raised bit for lorries at the bottom of the pic.

 

I won't copy and post, as they'd be upside down!

[jhb171achill]

And mid picture P29, railings still in place. Latterly, these railings were of old rail, but before that they were wooden, sometimes of old sleepers.

Page 18 overgrown, left.

[Junctionmad]

cattle bank , Thats unusual terminology isn't it

I thought originally most of these cattle pens or loading docks would have had barriers to create cattle crushes etc

[jhb171achill]

They did initially. There were pens on each one. (A cattle platform was known in "railway" days as a "cattle bank". It had railings along the edge with openings in them, and wagons were aligned accordingly when loading / unloading from each pen. Cattle were driven into the pens from road side, or unloaded from cattle lorries at the gates of them.

[GSR 800]

This is very interesting. So to summaries anyone modeling the 40s-50s-60s(me!) should have cattle banks/platforms in a station?

[Broithe]

Ratio do a kit for what they call a Cattle Dock.

 

 

I've always called them Cattle Banks, though I've not had many conversations about them.

[jhb171achill]

They were called cattle docks, more commonly in England. England is a strange place. They have MPDs, like we did, but they are loco sheds, not railcars on the Larne line.

They also have loco depots, which are also loco sheds.

They have DMUs instead of railcars.

MPDs and DMUs are both railcars. They aren't aware of this.

They have signal boxes instead of signal cabins.

Everything is narrow gauge.

They call carriages TSOs, GHSs, BSKs, JHBs (well, maybe not that;) KSX, NHG, HTR, GGT... or whatever; instead of "open thirds", "corridor seconds", "Mk 1 standards" and "dining cars"....

and the innards of what they call a snack car is to us, a dining car (or maybe it's vice versa...)!

 

But, diversity adds interest to our rainy world, doesn't it...

Edited January 28, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

A cattle dock I made many many moons ago when I was about 15 - no slagging please

 

[jhb171achill]

Looks the part (especially the accurate surface; hope it's not real cow dung!) - that's exactly how they were laid out.

[DiveController]

Don't go there man! Battleships, fencing and tea end up getting involved!

Touché, hehehe

 

They were called cattle docks, more commonly in England. England is a strange place. They have MPDs, like we did, but they are loco sheds, not railcars on the Larne line.

They also have loco depots, which are also loco sheds.

They have DMUs instead of railcars.

MPDs and DMUs are both railcars. They aren't aware of this.

They have signal boxes instead of signal cabins.

Everything is narrow gauge.

They call carriages TSOs, GHSs, BSKs, JHBs (well, maybe not that;) KSX, NHG, HTR, GGT... or whatever; instead of "open thirds", "corridor seconds", "Mk 1 standards" and "dining cars"....

and the innards of what they call a snack car is to us, a dining car (or maybe it's vice versa...)!

 

But, diversity adds interest to our rainy world, doesn't it...

Edited January 29, 2016 by DiveController

[Junctionmad]

So " cattle banks" it is then. I agree they were present in any station in Ireland. The livestock trade was one of the main reasons railways got built in Ireland. The first purchases of the then new W& LR was cattle wagons not coaches. In places like Ballinrobe the " bank" was longer then the platform !!

 

You can read the history of this huge trade in accounts of the LNWR/GWR etc, which ran very large cattle trains from dockside locations to major beef processing locations. ( I have a link some where )

40 percent of all live trade was exported via the north wall , with Waterford being another major port of export.

 

As was mentioned, many of the " banks" were retasked to load beet , some having added ramps to facilitate tipping. some of these ramps were quite precarious.

 

I remember seeing them at kilmeadan where there was just a single siding that originally loaded cattle.

 

Noel's fencing is rather fine. The remenants of ones I saw were always constructed of old rail, cattle are incredibly strong and when agitated can destroy anything of wood and knock down concrete walls.

 

I remember seeing the remnants of the " bank " at bray , when I lived there. It was on the Dublin city side of the level crossing , effectively seperate to the main goods yard, this doesn't seem uncommon and several "banks " I saw had their own entrance into the public road. Presumably to keep the sh!te away from the sensitive passangers !!! ( this was when bray still had its turntable too )

 

I also have seen some pens at the end of passanger platforms. I think these might have been used exclusively for horses, because I think in the main horse boxes were carried in passanger trains.

 

I think any historical layout certainly prewar should be filled with cattle trucks !

 

Dave

Edited January 29, 2016 by Junctionmad

[minister_for_hardship]

Not all places could handle livestock, though most could. Locations in suburbia, very small halts or stations that were not road connected generally wouldn't have a cattle bank.

The GSR Appendix listed the exclusions and the MASSIVE 'Handbook' Of Railway Stations had a glossary of what stations could handle which traffic, crane max loads etc.

[Irishrailwayman]

Thanks for that. I have to say John's work is pure art.

 

What I try to do for rolling stock is to select the best of whatever RTR or kits are available and knock them into better shape. No one element is perfect but I try to catch the overall sense of the scene. Many of the attached photos/models are fashioned with the scenes portrayed in the "Irish Railways in Colour" books in mind. As someone said, there is always more that can be done - I need to dull down and muddy the tyres of those road vehicles...

 

Also, there has been a lot of debate on which green is which for CIE. The reality is that no one knows for sure at this remove so I have tried to identify currently available shades that might be useful in modelling. The A Class is a Silver Fox RTR (I must check with John Hazleton what shade he uses). For the B101 (Studio Scale Models kit) I used Phoenix Paints P50 LNER Doncaster green. The wooden coach is the Murphy Models offering while the Laminate and Park Royal are from Irish Freight Models painted in Revell SM364 Leaf Green Silk which I think is fairly convincing. I have a Humbrol Beige Green Matt paint to hand which I think will pass as the Eau-de-nil or CIE green stripes.

 

John Hazelton at Silver Fox Models tells me that for the A Class depicted he used Railmatch BR Early Multiple Unit Green (Code RM307). He has since changed to a similar shade from Precision SR Pre-war Malachite Green (Code P77). These would be available in UK but regulations don't allow them to be posted from there.

[Blaine]

These would be available in UK but regulations don't allow them to be posted from there.

 

Couriers will deliver them. Its only the post office that now cant carry paint/chemicals