Kit building v RTR - Sometimes a false economy?

[Noel]

Kit building v RTR - In some cases can it be a false economy when RTR cost is perceived as a factor?

I only ask this question in the case where both a kit is available of a particular model and a reasonably close RTR option.  If I am really honest by the time you tool up with materials, tools, paints and all those little packs of extra bits inc postage, do many kits not end up costing more than their RTR counter part?  For example while I really enjoyed my recent Lima GSV conversion, which wasn't even a kit more a kit bash, I wondered if it ended up costing me more than the €90 (RTR option).  Yes I know half the fun was the time enjoyed building it, and doing some aspects of it more to my liking than the RTR alternative, but can't help wondering if making tweaks to an RTR would have cost less and ended up looking much the same.  End of rambled wondering.  

[GNRi1959]

I'm a complete novice in this area but more and more I am being driven away from the expensive Irish market out there to considering 'anything' RTR.

[PaulC]

In monetary terms, you probably aren't wrong in your assumption that a kit built version with all the bells and whistles attached will come close to, if not more than, the price of a RTR alternative. 

The big difference and the one that would keep me on the kit built/bashed road is that every time that wagon, coach or loco I've built trundles past I have the knowledge that I created that. I painted it, weathered it, added the extra details not included in the RTR version, I made something that isn't even available as a RTR and I took pleasure from building it. Money can't buy that.

That's the hobby for me, emerging myself in the scratchbuild, kit build, scenic creation and reading round the subject I'm working on to learn more to help that build. Some people just want stock on their layout and see it run.  I want those sheets of plastic on the workbench to bring something to life. 

Paul

[Irishrailwayman]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Kit building v RTR - In some cases can it be a false economy when RTR cost is perceived as a factor?

I only ask this question in the case where both a kit is available of a particular model and a reasonably close RTR option.  If I am really honest by the time you tool up with materials, tools, paints and all those little packs of extra bits inc postage, do many kits not end up costing more than their RTR counter part?  For example while I really enjoyed my recent Lima GSV conversion, which wasn't even a kit more a kit bash, I wondered if it ended up costing me more than the €90 (RTR option).  Yes I know half the fun was the time enjoyed building it, and doing some aspects of it more to my liking than the RTR alternative, but can't help wondering if making tweaks to an RTR would have cost less and ended up looking much the same.  End of rambled wondering.  

Kit bashing is a useful way of turning out a bespoke version of real structures with the satisfaction of knowing the result is unique to you!

[Warbonnet]

I had a chat with a prominent kit builder on the Irish scene at the Raheny show last year who stated that if he was to build a kit of a wagon for a punter it’s 30 quid, 20 quid to paint it, and another few quid to weather it. That’s on top of buying the kit in the first place, so yes, RTR is cheaper. But then I might be a tad biased towards RTR for obvious reasons.

the way we look at it is if the stock is provided to high standards it means it can be simply modified or detailed in the minimum time, allowing you to get on with building the layout and buildings etc. After all, finding the time to achieve your goals is one of the most difficult things to do.

[jhb171achill]

As a teenager, even if good quality RTR was available, my budget wouldn't have stretched to it, so BR Mk 1s bought second hand, and repainted black'n'tan would have had to do!

[murrayec]

Hi Jhb

Snap! My daddy's Mark 1s and my Class 08 were liberally sploshed with Valspar Orange, it's all my pocket money could afford

Daddy was not impressed, especially when I did the same to his Green British loco

Eoin

[Noel]

24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

As a teenager, even if good quality RTR was available, my budget wouldn't have stretched to it, so BR Mk 1s bought second hand, and repainted black'n'tan would have had to do!

Snap two. This was hand painted to CIE livery when I was 12 or 13 many moons ago. It had been a Tri-ang Hornby LMS coach (mk chassis and roof but bizarr sides)

[David Holman]

When I rejoined the hobby in the late '80s, the majority of RTR was so lacking in both detail and accuracy, that kit building was often the only way to get anything that wasn't aimed at the toy market. It was also the only way to achieve decent running, so dire were some of the chassis/mechanisms.

 Nowadays the opposite applies to some extent. Yes, there are some superb kits out there, but a degree of skill and experience is needed to put them together, plus you still have the paint job as well.

 Most current RTR is aimed at the adult market, with fabulous detail and superb running. There are 7mm scale RTR locos coming on stream with working inside valve gear for under £300 for goodness sake!

 An etched brass kit will cost about the same as RTR, but probably involved 50-100 hours work. Fine by me, because that is what I enjoy doing. But if I was starting again? No way, I'd still want to build things, but am sure it would be buildings and scenery, with locos being RTR.

[Broithe]

47 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi Jhb

Snap! My daddy's Mark 1s and my Class 08 were liberally sploshed with Valspar Orange, it's all my pocket money could afford

Daddy was not impressed, especially when I did the same to his Green British loco

Eoin

Starting early was a good idea, you seem to be beginning to get the hang of it now

[GNRi1959]

I built a model of Omagh GNRi Station in 1990 - 6'x2'  - static model. It was purchased by the new Library when it opened in Omagh for £3500. That same year I built a model of the Fintona Horse Tram- the materials cost me £42. The Transport Museum Cultra bought it for £900. Now I just don't have the eyesight nor the patience to build anything. I do hope that I will though..........

Edited January 24, 2018 by GNRi1959

[Mayner]

The question of whether scratchbuilding or kit building over buying rtr is a false economy depends really on whether a person derives their satisfaction from collecting or modelling

I went through a phase of building BR steam locos from DJH & Comet kits about 20 years ago some speculatively, some as commissions, and some for myself. On average a kit for a large loco like a West Country or 9F 2-10-0 took 30 hours to build and sold for upwards of  £250 with material costs of around  £100. 

One of the frustrating things was that Bachmann or Hornby tended to release a rtr version within 6-12 months of completing a model of a particular loco, but the satisfaction of completing a particular loco was far higher than opening a box.

A kit or scratchbuilt built loco with metal boiler, brass frames, quality Mashima motor with all metal gear train likely to perform better and last far longer than a rtr loco with mazak chassis and plastic gear train. 

Some of my kit built Irish steam locos are upward of 30 years old and still run reasonably well while most of my British outline rtr locos of that age are only fit for the scrap box.

[Andy Cundick]

A point to bear in mind with modern ready to run is that you are effectively buying a time bomb the good old days when your Triang loco died and you just put another X04 in are long gone modern ready to run along with short production runs and changes does'nt seem to have the parts backup at least with kit/scratchbuilt you put it together you can fix it.Andy. 

[johnminnitt]

On 1/31/2018 at 9:54 AM, Mayner said:

The question of whether scratchbuilding or kit building over buying rtr is a false economy depends really on whether a person derives their satisfaction from collecting or modelling

 

Exactly - even if the kit costs more than the rtr, the extra money is simply a very reasonable price for both the entertainment of building it and the satisfaction of having built it.

[Broithe]

6 minutes ago, johnminnitt said:

Exactly - even if the kit costs more than the rtr, the extra money is simply a very reasonable price for both the entertainment of building it and the satisfaction of having built it.

It's only money that would otherwise be wasted on drink and women.   

[Noel]

1 hour ago, johnminnitt said:

Exactly - even if the kit costs more than the rtr, the extra money is simply a very reasonable price for both the entertainment of building it and the satisfaction of having built it.

I was surprised when even one of the UKs top scratch build modellers Tony Wright, admitted that in most cases nowadays where an RTR model exists it is probably finished to a higher level of detail and a more reliable standard than anything that can be scratch built, such is the standard nowadays of many RTR models. He suggests kit building is now the preserve and joy of building rare eclectic prototypes that are either not available RTR, or in increasingly rare circumstances where the quality or accuracy is not good enough. 

Price is not the only consideration, time and availability of skill experience is probably a bigger factor for many. 

[johnminnitt]

6 hours ago, Broithe said:

It's only money that would otherwise be wasted on drink and women.   

Certainly, you can always keep some of the cash for other forms of entertainment.

4 hours ago, Noel said:

I was surprised when even one of the UKs top scratch build modellers Tony Wright, admitted that in most cases nowadays where an RTR model exists it is probably finished to a higher level of detail and a more reliable standard than anything that can be scratch built, such is the standard nowadays of many RTR models. He suggests kit building is now the preserve and joy of building rare eclectic prototypes that are either not available RTR, or in increasingly rare circumstances where the quality or accuracy is not good enough. 

Price is not the only consideration, time and availability of skill experience is probably a bigger factor for many. 

There is no doubt some truth in that, but, to be fair, Tony also emphasises that one of the best reasons for kit or scratch building is simply the pleasure/satisfaction of doing so, even if there is a rtr alternative, even if it's a very good rtr alternative.

[Noel]

45 minutes ago, johnminnitt said:

There is no doubt some truth in that, but, to be fair, Tony also emphasises that one of the best reasons for kit or scratch building is simply the pleasure/satisfaction of doing so, even if there is a rtr alternative, even if it's a very good rtr alternative.

That is a good reason which I can understand. Luckily the Irish scene has been transformed in the past 10 years or so with RTR versions of nearly every type of CIE passenger and goods rolling stock now available RTR (steam excepted), especially the high quality of both Murphy Models large stable and more recently IRMs entry to the Irish Market. One can only guess what additional high quality RTR stock will be available in the next 10 years.  

You have to pinch yourself to remember, it is not too many years ago when the market was only catered for only by kits from the likes if Q-kits and MIR, the limited RTR Lima class 33s and BR mk1 repaints, and the Hornby Hymek horror show which bore no resemblance to any Irish prototype but looked the part in a past time of CIE model famine.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Noel

[lucas z]

A value has to be said in perhaps covering an easier introduction to modeling in irish railway stock perhaps an rtr chassis type with a one piece body for a wagon which may be could be detailed to a version or diagram?

[David Holman]

DIY has always been an integral part of modelling less popular subjects, though these days, obscure prototypes, light railways and the like are increasingly well served by RTR.

 In some ways, this is a shame, because it is arguable there is now too much RTR and ready to plant structures, which may ultimately de-skill the hobby, if all you need to do is open a box and plonk a building on the layout.

 However, for those more interested in operation, clearly there is nothing wrong with that, which is why our hobby is so good for all sorts of interests. 

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, David Holman said:

DIY has always been an integral part of modelling less popular subjects, though these days, obscure prototypes, light railways and the like are increasingly well served by RTR.

 In some ways, this is a shame, because it is arguable there is now too much RTR and ready to plant structures, which may ultimately de-skill the hobby, if all you need to do is open a box and plonk a building on the layout.

 However, for those more interested in operation, clearly there is nothing wrong with that, which is why our hobby is so good for all sorts of interests. 

One of the downsides of the increasing availability of reasonably priced rtr models is that a higher proportion of people are prepared to wait for a commissioner or manufacturer to introduce a rtr model than attempt to assemble a kit or scratch build where a kit is not available.

The introduction of the MM rtr diesels probably contributed to Ian McNally's decision to cease producing loco kits and the eventual demise of the MIR range of wagon kits. There have been very few articles on this thread on building  121 locomotive since MM announcement several years ago that they intended to introduce a model of that loco. There appears to be a similar pattern in the UK both with the decrease in the number of model railway shops and decline in kit/component manufacturer.

I had fairly clear objectives in the early 80s that I was going to scratch build ex-MGWR locos and stock for a 21mm gauge layout, instead I ended up building less relevant models as kits of GSWR & GNR locos and stock were released by TMD and SSM and later bitten by the American railroad bug and an interest in British minor/industrial railways. 

During the past year or so my objectives have become clearer American narrow gauge using rtr locos and stock in the garden with kit and scratchbuilt structures and Irish Broad and narrow gauge in 4mm GSR/early CIE chiefly kit and scratchbuilt locos, stock and structures with little place for the rtr models that I have collected in recent years. 

John

[leslie10646]

I will admit to total depression when "The Boys" announced that they were going to produce the CIE Sundries Container which I started doing as a kit last year (and sold a good number - my thanks to you who bought it).

However, this thread has cheered me up no amount! Obviously there are still a lot of guys (and gals?) out there who still get satisfaction of saying "I built that"! I know I did when I had two working eyes and wasn't quite so handless!

So, maybe I'll soldier on, although at 72 years maybe it's time to run them rather than make them?

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by leslie10646

[leslie10646]

It's only money that would otherwise be wasted on drink and women. 

Ah, Broithe, sure it's not all wasted at all - 

Mine likes trains, real and model - I've just bought her a Crocodile!

 

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

I will admit to total depression when "The Boys" announced that they were going to produce the CIE Sundries Container which I started doing as a kit last year (and sold a good number - my thanks to you who bought it).

However, this thread has cheered me up no amount! Obviously there are still a lot of guys (and gals?) out there who still get satisfaction of saying "I built that"! I know I did when I had two working eyes and wasn't quite so handless!

So, maybe I'll soldier on, although at 72 years maybe it's time to run them rather than make them?

 

I went through a similar phase of soul searching when I was modelling British Railways steam Bachmann or Hornby would introduce a rtr model shortly after I would complete assembling a loco kit. The chief consolation was that I got a lot of enjoyment out of the build and I ended up with a loco that would out last and out haul the rtr version, no problems with mazac cancer and split gears with a loco with brass frames and a metal gear train.

In a way I probably decided to wind back the clock to early CIE/GSR days because its difficult to see someone commissioning a mass produced rtr models from that particular era.

I suppose I have hedged my bets by going up to 1:20.3 narrow gauge in the garden so that I can both see and run my models (though its !!!!!!!! expensive) while I still potter around trying to build workable models in 4mm scale when its too wet cold or dark to work in the garden.

John

[leslie10646]

I suppose I have hedged my bets by going up to 1:20.3 narrow gauge in the garden so that I can both see and run my models (though its !!!!!!!! expensive) while I still potter around trying to build workable models in 4mm scale when its too wet cold or dark to work in the garden.

John, I've been tempted by this Garden Railway thing for over ten years since I saw a friend's huge garden railway - all LGB, mind you, so very much RTR. I've just succumbed to giving it a go - it's the fault of a guy selling his LGB stuff at Bangor. Hence the crocodile mentioned a few posts ago. I am a big fan of the Rhaetian Railway and my initial purchases have been for that railway.

Of course, my world is the reverse of yours - I can run the garden railway on odd days, not as much sun in Surrey as Down Under - the GNR-based effort in the loft will always be the more appropriate activity!