Murphy Models Craven coaches white stripes

[controller]

Hi, I have a number of Murphy Model craven coaches. Each one has two white stripes running along the length of the coach, one on top of the windows, and the other one below the windows. I purchased Ist. class coach 1149 to finish off the set. This coach has only one stripe on top of the windows. Is this the way it should be for the period when these coaches ran as Ist. class or should I paint on an extra stripe to match the other coaches?.

Thanks,

Controller.

[Broithe]

The single stripe represents an early livery - not a huge difference, it must be said.

http://www.murphymodels.com/Models.html

[flange lubricator]

The two white stripes were introduced in 1987 with setting up of Irish Rail the prior to this Cravens would have carried the single 6"white stripe since there introduction in 1964 .

[Noel]

That's about it.  Pre mk2 stock, one 6" stipe over the window in the CIE days before the modern image era, when 'tippex' dual 3" stripes came in.  For a fair while after 87, coach formations could be seen with mixed liveries (single + double stripes). I don't think there were first class services anywhere after that except on Cork and Belfast routes, so not sure how long Craven 1st coaches operated.  

[controller]

Thanks Lads, I thought that was the case, I just wanted to hear it from the experts. I think I will leave 1149 as she is. 

Thanks Again,

Controller.

[jhb171achill]

Pre 1987, no orange stripe above window level either. White only above, orange only below.

[controller]

Hi JHB, I see that now. All the other coaches have white and orange stripes above the windows, 1149 has only white.

Thanks,

Controller.

[WRENNEIRE]

Murphy Models will have a snack car in the early livery in the next couple of months

[jhb171achill]

I'm just wondering when 1508/9 were converted.... was it pre-1990?  

[WRENNEIRE]

In 1990 as far as I am aware, 1509 only lasted 3 years, derailed and was never put back in service

[Railer]

Fire damage actually, Dave. Was beyond economic repair.

[islandbridgejct]

My 3rd edition of Doyle and Hirsch says 1149-1151 were converted from super standard to standard in 1985, so 2 years before Irish Rail was created and the 2nd stripe introduced. They became 1558, 1548 and 1547. It lists them as introduced in 1970, so I think they reverted back to their original numbers which were missing from the main series of Cravens standards. So it looks like you have a 15 year window to run it as a 1st.

I can't see anything about 1508-9, sorry.

Alan

[jhb171achill]

21 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

In 1990 as far as I am aware, 1509 only lasted 3 years, derailed and was never put back in service

In that case, 1508/9 would not have run as catering cars in older livery style. Only the post-1987 IE style with orange and white lines above, and white line below windows.

1 hour ago, islandbridgejct said:

My 3rd edition of Doyle and Hirsch says 1149-1151 were converted from super standard to standard in 1985, so 2 years before Irish Rail was created and the 2nd stripe introduced. They became 1558, 1548 and 1547. It lists them as introduced in 1970, so I think they reverted back to their original numbers which were missing from the main series of Cravens standards. So it looks like you have a 15 year window to run it as a 1st.

I can't see anything about 1508-9, sorry.

Alan

Which means that as firsts, they were only ever in the older livery with only white above windows, and no white below.

[Noel]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Which means that as firsts, they were only ever in the older livery with only white above windows, and no white below.

Yes that's what I had assumed.  I remember restaurant/dinning carriages then that were not cravens, presume they were laminates/bredins.

[islandbridgejct]

58 minutes ago, Noel said:

Yes that's what I had assumed.  I remember restaurant/dinning carriages then that were not cravens, presume they were laminates/bredins.

The diners were generally classed as buffets and converted from the CIE design based on the Bredins that preceded the laminate stock, so dating to 1950-56, rather than 1955 and post. (That's assuming I know what I'm talking about. I think there was a CIE design derived from the Bredins; but feel free to jump in and correct me.)

They were numbered 2402-2422. 2402 was a diner. 2403 was a kitchen car. 2412 and 2416 were cafeteria cars. The rest were buffets. 2419-2422 ran on commonwealth bogies, the rest were on B4s by 1980. If I can get my scanner working, I'll post some pictures.

I remember one Good Friday about 1980 getting on a midday Connolly-Dundalk train that was running with a van, open and buffet, instead of the regular van + 4 or 5, because most of the regular stock had been swiped for long distance trains. Conditions were tight....

Alan

[DiveController]

1 hour ago, islandbridgejct said:

They were numbered 2402-2422. 2402 was a diner. 2403 was a kitchen car. 2412 and 2416 were cafeteria cars. The rest were buffets. 2419-2422 ran on commonwealth bogies, the rest were on B4s by 1980. If I can get my scanner working, I'll post some pictures.

2405-2418 were built as 39 S buffets in 1953-4 and 2419-2422 in 1956 in response to the introduction of railcars about 1951 2402 , a dining car with a larger kitchen and hence only 18 seat appeared in 1961 2403 a full kitchen car to cater to the Radio trains followed in 1964. The second kitchen car 2407 followed in 1969 converted from the earlier buffet 2407 of 1953. Photos, yes please!

Edited February 2, 2018 by DiveController

[mfjoc]

I am not 100% sure but I think 1149 and 1150 were converted to super standard sometime in the 1970's to run on the enterprise as CIE wouldn't risk a mk2 set north of the border.

Also I seem to remember 1508 and 1509 were converted sometime between1988 to 1989. This was due to the withdrawal of all timber frame stock following the introduction of the mk. 3s 

[jhb171achill]

Mfjoc - that sounds correct.

islandbridge - correct.

There were never any purpose-built Craven catering vehicles - only those two conversions. If it was 1988, newer livery variant only.

Pre 1986, Cravens were mixed in with laminates, Park Royals and 1953-6 24xx dining cars completely; as well as Brendon's while they were still running (last one about 1976), and the last few old wooden GSWR carriages (last withdrawn 1974).

All were regarded as a common fleet. Only the new air-con Mk 2 tin cans were kept separate. Their corridor gangways didn't match anything else.

[josefstadt]

First Class Cravens:

 

1147  Converted from Standard Class coach 1551 on 27/01/1970.
  Reverted to Standard Class coach 1551 in June 1973.

1148  Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 on 16/01/1970.
  Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 in December 1974.

1149  Converted from Standard Class coach 1558 on 01/05/1970.
  Reverted to Standard Class coach 1558 on 31/12/1984.

1150  Converted from Standard Class coach 1548 on 02/09/1970.
  Reverted to Standard Class coach 1548 on 25/10/1984.

1151  Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 in March 1980.
  Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 on 04/03/1985.

[jhb171achill]

I didn't know any were as late as 1985...... anyway, it amplifies the point that I made that with a "1" on the door and antimacassars, original livery only.

In a spirit of helpfulness to a young modeller, I recently gave him my copy of Doyle & Hirsch, the Bible for such things. (Do I have to be politically correct and say koran as well?).....

Now im regretting it!  I'll have to get another copy......

Edited February 21, 2018 by jhb171achill

[WRENNEIRE]

Just for your info Controller there are 2 more single striped Cravens, MM1504 & MM I515 both standards 

Generally a bit harder to pick up than the later liveried ones as there were not the same amounts of them manufactured 

Some pics of them on Page 7 of the Lima Murphy thread on this forum

Edited February 21, 2018 by WRENNEIRE

[controller]

Hi Wrenneire, Thanks for that info. Must keep an eye out, in case they ever come on the market, at a reasonable price.

Controller.

[mfjoc]

According to the Bible (aka IIRS journal) 1518 was converted to a snack car by October 1986 so it could have appeared with a single stripe.

[Railer]

18 minutes ago, mfjoc said:

According to the Bible (aka IIRS journal) 1518 was converted to a snack car by October 1986 so it could have appeared with a single stripe.

It was, but to a different layout to 1508 and 09. 1518 didn't last long in that configuration and was returned to standard config in a short time. 1509 existed as a mini buffet config from about 1990 to 1993, so short time frame for it too.

[BSGSV]

Both 1518 and 1520 were converted c1986, with what were probably minimal buffet facilities, but don't seem to have lasted very long. I've never seen a photo of either in that state. Does anyone have any?

Edited February 22, 2018 by BSGSV
Spelling

[jhb171achill]

Possibly no external difference?

In the early 1990s, on the RPSI May Tour, when the Society used to hire Cravens from IE, on several occasions we simply removed two or three seating bays the night before in the Valeting Plant, and installed a counter and bar. At end of tour we put them back the way they were. 

Point being, things like this could be done for any period, however short, and zero external changes.

I wonder if these other conversions were similar. I'm 90% certain that no other Craven (apart from 1508/9) ever had external alterations like blocked up windows.

[Railer]

Just a further question about the RPSI Cravens and 1509's rocking issue. Does the bogies shim solution work well and any other solutions that modelers have come up with that sort the issues. I was very tempted to pick up another set on the Branchline tour on Saturday but the bogie issue put me off the sale. I've yet to pick up a 1509 for myself yet for the same reason.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Railer said:

Just a further question about the RPSI Cravens and 1509's rocking issue. Does the bogies shim solution work well and any other solutions that modelers have come up with that sort the issues. I was very tempted to pick up another set on the Branchline tour on Saturday but the bogie issue put me off the sale. I've yet to pick up a 1509 for myself yet for the same reason.

Mixed reports. One report from Kieran (Kirley late of the us parish) was that the MM supplied plain washer did not work on two of his coaches but did work on one. I fitted similar sized plastic shims on my set but they had no effect on the horrific wobble. At the SDMRC show last October Paddy demonstrated a fix using 'sprung' washers on a set of RPSI coaches which seemed to work well, but apparently these since turned into plain washers without the sprung wings, and are available FOC to RPSI customers from Marks Models in Hawkins street.

@Dhu Varren posted a DIY fix that worked for him involving gluing on pieces of plastic to the underside of the coach floor that restricted bogie movement in one plane. Personally I am a little miffed that coaches this expensive with such a serious running defect require customers to self fix.

Like you am an interested in some more to make up a rake but decided not to buy a) because RPSI may produce another set of 3 standard coaches next year and b) the wobble. Because these coaches were a fund raiser for RPSI, I'm less inclined to pursue them for a remedy and PM was only kindly helping them in the back ground. These things happen. They are still lovely looking coaches if not runable without averting ones eyes.

[Georgeconna]

Try the Mark II's, The couplings are horrendous of those too. Test ran a couple a month ago and they looks pityful.