Bawnboy Road

[Mayner]

There are a number of 1950s colour photos of C&L section locos in both volumes of "Irish Railways in Colour" from steam to diesel Tom Ferris Midland Publishing. The overall impression is of reasonably clean locos with badly worn paintwork with burnt smokeboxes & chimneys, towards the end locos would have been in a mechanically run down condition as heavy overhauls of C&L section engines at Inchacore appear to have ceased in the early 1950s.

There is a  black and white photo of a recently repainted 12L under overhaul at Ballinamore in 1956 and 6T appears to have been re-painted in black at Inchacore before transfer to the C&L for the final coal rush in 1957-8.

The narrow gauge engines would have been worked hard (often by Broad Gauge crews) during the periodic coal rushes, the combination of hard work, poor quality coal and minimal maintenance would have contributed to the woebegone appearance of the loco fleet during the final years of operation.

 

[Galteemore]

A 1959 account by H E Vickers describes 12L as ‘filthy from end to end’. The subsequent cab ride from Dromod to Ballinamore involved surviving the spilt oil cans littering the cab, the wheels rubbing against the boiler sheeting, reversing gear snatching, and a regulator about to fall off the spindle. The loco was driven for much of the time with full regulator and nominal mid-gear. Vickers found that a second day on 12L told a different story, with the engine driven by a crew on ‘their mettle’, with full cut-off range employed. Six locos were in steam and he describes all as being on their last legs! This bears out Mayner’s comments about the busy season - perhaps the crew on day 2 were old C and L hands.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

Hi Porky If you look at Google earth you can get a lot of detail with out moving from your computer, that said there is nothing like a site visit to get you in the mood for modelling.

Colin

[Colin R]

Somewhere on the computer I have started a list of the state of the C&L vans, it is by no means complete but it is a start, as far as i can make out there were three basic styles, Low roof, High roof and cattle  van's  all built to the same size. well that was the plan at the start what I have found is that in the rebuildins dimensions did change, I have wheel bases from 7ft 6ins to 8ft.

As for building a prototype C&L van well go for it, as I don't think anyone will know any different now, there is a possible 100+ variations but only 70 vans to play with so if  you are not sure and you get asked that it never happen, then asked the person to come up with a photo.

It is most unlikly that any two vans looked the same by the 1950's anyway.  

 

Colin

[PorkyP]

28 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Hi Porky If you look at Google earth you can get a lot of detail with out moving from your computer, that said there is nothing like a site visit to get you in the mood for modelling.

Colin

I was hoping that she could get some nice pics straight on like you were surveying it for measurements & scale, most pics online are from oblique angles...luckily its in pretty good condition and you can walk right up to it from some angles, tho as i recall not entirely from the field at the back that used to be where the track was..

[Colin R]

Yes I see what you mean

Colin

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Did a little research.

Of the four CBPR 2.4.2Ts that went to Leitrim, two had specially cast numberplates and two had painted numbers. No. 12L had cream painted numbers - never cast plates, and was grey to the end.  As mentioned towards the end it was, like other C & L locomotives, in very rough condition.

[Phil3150]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 PM, PorkyP said:

I was hoping that she could get some nice pics straight on like you were surveying it for measurements & scale, most pics online are from oblique angles...luckily its in pretty good condition and you can walk right up to it from some angles, tho as i recall not entirely from the field at the back that used to be where the track was..

A good source of drawings of buildings that still exist without a site visit can be from planning applications. Check the local council planning site and if any alterations have been made over the years there may well be dimensioned “as existing” drawings. One warning though, as an engineer I learned many years ago to treat architect’s drawings with a pinch of salt!

Edited January 2, 2020 by Phil3150

[Phil3150]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:53 AM, Mayner said:

There is a  black and white photo of a recently repainted 12L under overhaul at Ballinamore in 1956 and 6T appears to have been re-painted in black at Inchacore before transfer to the C&L for the final coal rush in 1957-8

 

It’s very difficult to guess the colour from that photo but what it does show is how the number on the front beam was applied at that time rather than the heavily shaded version seen in many earlier photos. I have assumed 6T was painted black in 1957 and that will be my token clean engine!

[David Holman]

Great to see you at Stevenage!

[Phil3150]

I've been tinkering with my station name board as discussed on Dr Gerbil-Fritters Castle Kerry thread. For the most part I used the Bunchló font but for the "B"s I used Gael. I need to add a few dots and tidy it up a bit but here is my effort so far:

          

Any comments welcome

Phil

 

[Galteemore]

Looks good to me! 

[Midland Man]

wow how is the engine looking?

[jhb171achill]

Yes, the "bunchlo" font is by far the nearest I've been able to find, anyway.  I'd be inclined to put the English-language version in bold, though.

[Phil3150]

I just did that JHB

[Colin R]

That looks better Phil

[Phil3150]

Its about time I proved that there has been some (slow) progress on 12L. The photos show it fresh out of the paint shop but before getting covered in c**p!

Phil

[Colin R]

Hi Phil I know that colour is always a big discussion point when it comes to models, but I am sure I have seen a colour photo of one of these locos in a much darker shade of grey almost black, (inside of Irish Railways in Colour 1955 to 1967 by Tom Ferris) I do understand that this as build or before it goes into service, you learn something new everyday.

A great model thanks for sharing it with us.

 

Colin R

[Garfield]

This model of 12L is on course to be the best I've seen of a CB&PR 2-4-2T, which in my opinion were one of the most elegant locos to run on any of the narrow gauge lines here.

Top work!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Hi Phil I know that colour is always a big discussion point when it comes to models, but I am sure I have seen a colour photo of one of these locos in a much darker shade of grey almost black, (inside of Irish Railways in Colour 1955 to 1967 by Tom Ferris) I do understand that this as build or before it goes into service, you learn something new everyday.

A great model thanks for sharing it with us.

 

Colin R

They came out of Inchicore looking very much like the above, drab as it was! Perhaps very very imperceptibly darker, but the above is as close as anyone can tell to accurate - I'm looking at an 0 gauge model in front of me painted with actual GSR paint.

However - and there's always a however! - once in traffic they obviously got dirty very quickly. Cleaning was done with oily rags, and as people at Whitehead who worked on 186 in recent years will tell you, it dulls and darkens a bit in use.

If we look at colour pictures of Donegal or GNR blue locomotives in their final days, you could be forgiven for thinking that the domes, and sometimes boilers, or EVEN the cab front and back, were actually black, such was the level of filth, soot and gunge on them. They weren't - they were without a solitary exception ALWAYS cherry red (CDR) and blue (GNR). Have a look at the disgraceful state that green-painted CIE locos got into in that period - especially (and surprisingly) the Woolwiches and 400 class. I have seen more than a few pictures of both of these classes where only a faint trace of lining, or a slight green tint on the tender side, gives any indication of whether they were painted grey, black or lined green.

GSWR / GSR / CIE locos painted grey suffered the same fate, especially from 1955 on, when it was clear their days were numbered. Narrow gauge ones, in particular, were dreadfully neglected cosmetically.

Many steam engines of all railways appear not to have red buffer beams due to filth - but they all did.

Senior recalled a jaunt on the C & L, not sure when, probably late 1940s, just into CIE days. He was doing a PW survey and travelled on the footplate of the morning train to Ballinamore. He said that while the carriage and the loco LOOKED like they belonged in a scrapyard, indeed, as the longest residents there, the loco was in excellent mechanical condition, and the C & L track was very well kept indeed, right until closure.

Anyway; point being - any C & L model at all can be sent to the Great Weathering Monster to do his worst!

46 minutes ago, Garfield said:

This model of 12L is on course to be the best I've seen of one of the CB&PR locos, which in my opinion were one of the most elegant locos to run on any of the narrow gauge lines here.

Top work!

Couldn't agree more  -  a truly inspirational job done on a much neglected prototype! Always wondered how one of those would perform on the modern track of the IOMR. The Passage tanks were capable of 50 miles an hour - and that was on the twisty Passage line. I daresay they could do more in the right location.

[Mayner]

An un-credited photo of 12L under repair in Ballinamore Works in 1956 from the Pan Paperback edition of P J Flannigans book.

It looks like the loco was recently repainted and is being re-assembled following repair, the colour is anyone guess.

Ballinamore had lost most of its machine shop facilities when overhauls were concentrated at Inchacore in the 1930s, 12L last visited Inchacore in 1947 so it looks like Ballinamore retained capability to carry out all but major overhauls.

There are some excellent colour photos of C&L locos in their final years of operation in Midland Publishing "Irish Railways in Colour" series, the most noticeable thing is that the locos were kept very clean despite burnt chimneys and smokebox doors and badly worn paintwork. Goods stock appeared to be well maintained and in good external condition in order to handle the relatively healthy goods traffic, passenger stock was a different story with one or two reasonable coaches on the Dromad-Belturbet main line and a a couple of decrepit former C&L coaches retained for the daily Arigna mixed train.

The model looks fantastic, I am tempted to build a Passage Tank but its likely to stick on the curves on my layout just like 13L did with a coal special on the Tramway in 1934, nothing like prototypical accuracy even on a fictious extension of the Tramway to Boyle or Sligo

 

[David Holman]

A stunningly good model. Well done Phil. Presume it is 4mms scale but could just as easily be 7, 10 or 16 from the photos. Really fine work.

[Colin R]

No criticism intended, as I was taken aback at a loco looking so clean and not what I was expecting, I bow to the greater knowledge of how these locos looked back then and just how wrong even some of the current modellers still get it wrong.

For those who have the Irish Narrow Gauge book by the late David Lloyd pub by Peco even he painted his locos a Dark Grey, it is great that there are people out there who can still tell us where we have been going wrong all these years.

Would the T&D locos as well as the C&L locos that went to inchicore for overhaul would they have come back having been repainted in this shade as well?

[Phil3150]

Well if the colour is wrong the person to blame is none other than JHB! I recall him posting that the 00 Works J15 was spot in. It so happened that my great grandson and I were painting one of his model tanks using Tamiya German tank grey when I noticed that this matched the J15 almost perfectly. That is the colour used on no. 12. Obviously there is some serious weathering to come.

[jhb171achill]

On 1/2/2020 at 4:32 PM, Phil3150 said:

It’s very difficult to guess the colour from that photo but what it does show is how the number on the front beam was applied at that time rather than the heavily shaded version seen in many earlier photos. I have assumed 6T was painted black in 1957 and that will be my token clean engine!

6T was (as you say, at the VERY end) repainted black. It is my understanding that it was the solitary narrow gauge loco to be actually painted thus.

However, coal is black, and given the atrocious external state that C & L locos got into in CIE days, if you have a loco THAT neglected, and you do t clean it, AND it spends its days hauling coal trains, and sitting attached to wagons being loaded and unloaded by hand, in windy and damp weather, with coal dust swirling about it, it wouldn’t matter if you painted it pink and white! It would still look a dirty black colour.

Look at blue GNR and red Donegal engines in later days, when nobody was cleaning them. Their bright blue / red paint became so dirty that you’d swear the boilers, domes or other bits actually WERE painted “black”.....

[Galteemore]

5 hours ago, Phil3150 said:

Well if the colour is wrong the person to blame is none other than JHB! I recall him posting that the 00 Works J15 was spot in. It so happened that my great grandson and I were painting one of his model tanks using Tamiya German tank grey when I noticed that this matched the J15 almost perfectly. That is the colour used on no. 12. Obviously there is some serious weathering to come.

Great - thanks. I’d looked at Panzer paint and wondered - my next GSR loco will be ‘Guderian grau’......

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Phil3150 said:

Well if the colour is wrong the person to blame is none other than JHB! I recall him posting that the 00 Works J15 was spot in. It so happened that my great grandson and I were painting one of his model tanks using Tamiya German tank grey when I noticed that this matched the J15 almost perfectly. That is the colour used on no. 12. Obviously there is some serious weathering to come.

Indeed - it is a good match. 

The colour used by Roderick on the 00 Works models wasn’t just a “close” thing - it was exactly matched with the real thing, an actual sample of the GSR paint.

Phil’s model looks to me to be the same. 

Most confusion over the shade stems from filth in day-to-day use, and occasionally the accuracy of the (manually set!) exposures in old photos.

The model looks superb! Weathering, of course, is obligatory on any steam loco, and a grey livery like that would be very susceptible to it 

I recall Senior commented several times on how light an ex-works engine looked compared to a well-worn one.

[Colin R]

5 hours ago, Phil3150 said:

Well if the colour is wrong the person to blame is none other than JHB! I recall him posting that the 00 Works J15 was spot in. It so happened that my great grandson and I were painting one of his model tanks using Tamiya German tank grey when I noticed that this matched the J15 almost perfectly. That is the colour used on no. 12. Obviously there is some serious weathering to come.

Now thats something I like 10ml XF-63 German Grey Acrylic Tamiya 81763.

Colin Rainsbury

 

[leslie10646]

Ah,Phil, that's just lovely (even though it's narrow gauge!). As Garfield said, one of the neatest looking little locos built for the Irish Narrow Gauge.

Of course, it was from a line (unhappily short-lived) which looked like a "proper" railway, as it was almost unique in having double tracks.

Anyway, this is what you have to turn it into, not No.12, but 10L -

Photo at Dromod by the late Lance King, IRRS Copyright.

Good luck with it, a super piece of work.

[StevieB]

What a state to get into, just like in the UK.

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

Yes - look at the buffer beam, which was RED!

If anything, some CIE locos got into even WORSE state than BR - and that is saying something.....

I don't know if anyone remembers that at one time I posted pics of a model my grandfather made using actual Inchicore paint. To show how light can show it up differently, I took a pic of it in sunny daylight, shaded daylight, and (in the house after dark) artificial light. All looked different - but there's only one "real thing", whatever light, photographic techniques or weathering does to it.

Many modellers prefer their models to be pristine, and many others prefer them prototypically filthy - though it will be a brave person who weathers a new Murphy 121, I would think! Tis up to the individual.

 

[Phil3150]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

Now thats something I like 10ml XF-63 German Grey Acrylic Tamiya 81763.

Colin Rainsbury

 

That's the one Colin

[murrayec]

JHB's grandfather's Loco;-

[Galteemore]

Panzer grey. Funnily enough, this is a subject WW2 modellers also debate.....

Edited September 9, 2020 by Galteemore

[KMCE]

34 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Panzer grey

Funny that - I've been using Vallejo Panzer Dark Grey for locos recently - comes up a nice dark grey with a blueish tint as if rubbed with oily rags.

Add a bit (a lot) of weathering & you start getting to that level of filth @jhb171achillis rather fond of