Roundhouses in Ireland

[dave182]

Hi All 

Did Ireland have any Roundhouses back in the days of Steam? I believe there may have been one at Broadstone? I don't think I've ever seen one in model form on an Irish themed layout.

[leslie10646]

Hi Dave

You are right about Broadstone. Part of it, roofless, remained into the 1950s, at least. Loads of photos of steam locos in front of the remains at that time.

To it you can add Clones and Portadown which were copies of each other and built in the late 1920s in Ferro-concrete. The one at Clones is still there in industrial use.

As for models - well, the Portadown one has been modelled by William Redpath and was on show at Cultra last November - see the thread under "What's On on this site. He's done a super job. I'm as jealous as can be, for the same set-up, without the actual roundhouse is in my left, for my railway is based around "Portadown Jct". Time to concentrate on the layout before it's too late?

[Irishswissernie]

There was also another in Dublin but not on the main line railways!

Guinness Brewery.

ERnie

[Glenderg]

Connolly had/has one. Base of it remains if you go down sheriff Street. R. 

[BosKonay]

http://archiseek.com/2009/1926-former-great-northern-railway-engine-shed-clones-co-monaghan/

http://archiseek.com/2014/engine-roundhouse-portadown-co-armagh/

 

[josefstadt]

8 hours ago, Glenderg said:

Connolly had/has one. Base of it remains if you go down sheriff Street. R. 

Didn't think that Connolly ever had a roundhouse. Which bit of Sheriff St are you talking about Richie?

[Glenderg]

Back in 2015 the good lady wife bought me a book called a Portrait of Dublin in Maps and I spotted an early plan of Connolly. Curiosity got the better of me, so I rambled down the following day and took these.  Book is in the attic, somewhere, I'll try and dig it out over the weekend. It was when Connolly was just a terminus and the loop line had yet to be built. 

R

[josefstadt]

7 hours ago, Glenderg said:

Back in 2015 the good lady wife bought me a book called a Portrait of Dublin in Maps and I spotted an early plan of Connolly. Curiosity got the better of me, so I rambled down the following day and took these.  Book is in the attic, somewhere, I'll try and dig it out over the weekend. It was when Connolly was just a terminus and the loop line had yet to be built. 

R

Fascinating bit of history! If you can dig out the book, I'd love to hear more.

[leslie10646]

Richie, You certainly left me scratching my head when I read this post, so I'd be interested to hear the "evidence". 

Oddly enough, the GNR history (both Patterson and Murray) make little comment on the Company's loco sheds. A scan of the  IRRS Journal index proved fruitless as well. Ah, I thought, take a look at Norman Johnson's GN loco book - nope! It did yield a photo of the shed we now know as Amiens Street Shed which was taken at least a hundred years ago and it clearly is today's structure.

So, cough up the info, young man!

It is strange that while British sheds have been the subject of several dozen books on sheds - I think at least fifty - no-one seems to have written any kind of treatise on them for Ireland.

Well done, Ernie - it's appalling that I forgot the Guinness roundhouse, having scanned slides of it recently!

[Glenderg]

Fair enough Leslie, I'll trawl the attic in the morning, but nobody was more shocked/tickled/bemused than I to see it. The track layout had all the hallmarks of a traditional British terminus layout you'd expect in a sleepy hamlet, sort of fare you'd see at shows and exhibitions. 

At the risk of excitement, it was a particularly British format, without forethought to the loop line, yet to come. 

As for sheds, I'm sure, had I the time, I could regale in print the vagaries of "English garden wall bond" brick as an aesthetic and structural choice for GNR sheds, but twould bore the arse off everyone. 

(the GNR work, was, and is the zenith of railway architecture in the UK and Ireland, despite what the GWR think!) 

R

[Noel]

On 2/14/2019 at 3:28 PM, BosKonay said:

http://archiseek.com/2009/1926-former-great-northern-railway-engine-shed-clones-co-monaghan/

http://archiseek.com/2014/engine-roundhouse-portadown-co-armagh/

 

Love the blue 4-4-0

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

Interesting discussion on Amiens Street Roundhouse! But I think reference to the OSI Map Viewer can tell another story;-

The Historic 6 inch map of 1829 to 1842 shows the location of the Dublin to Drogheda line which seems pretty close to the line of the present day raised line.

The 6 inch Cassini map of 1830 to 1913 shows the later development of the present day raised line.

And the Historic 25 inch map of 1888 shows again further development of the raised line.

In the location of the photos posted above a curved line is indicated just after the bridge on the two later survey maps, they also indicate a long shed with two tracks entering from the northern end, as these tracks are on grade with the main line and the roadway is well below the tracks I believe this curved line is indicating a retaining wall, and that is the wall in the photos. I also believe a roundhouse would require a substantial frontage area and most likely a turntable- where in this location there is just not the space to do so with its proximity to the main line. Also note that the ashlar wall returns around at the northern end facing back into the main line track, which would cut off access for locos to get to the shed!

This is not to say there might have been plans to build a roundhouse in this location, but I do believe were looking at a curved retaining wall with arched access in under from road level to utilise the space under ....

Eoin

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by murrayec

[murrayec]

Actually!

On doing a bit more map searching I found a pdf file on the 'Wide Streets of Dublin' containing a map of Dublin of 1876 showing Amiens Street Station terminus with a semicircular structure adjacent the railway line, this would have been when the track was not elevated!

I found a second map dated 1883 which again shows the semicircular structure and a connection to a rectangular structure off to the east- which would be off the edge of the above map.

It looks like it was a building after all and not a retaining wall and when the track was elevated it was built on?

I have a portfolio of old Dublin maps stashed in 'my attic' which will take a bit of reorganising to get at, but will do tomorrow..... 

Eoin

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by murrayec

[murrayec]

I got the portfolio down out of the attic. It has a map based on another OS map of 1837, and has the semicircular building and goods storage building on it! And after having a lengthy discussion with my friendly railway historian this morning we believe the semicircular building was a cart loading shed- he tells me that the railway line was elevated from the beginning so we believe on that basis and the 3 or 4 arches in the back of the curve at street level it was a system to get goods down from a train and out onto the lower level roads or into the adjacent storage shed to the East fronting onto Lower Sheriff Street.....

Eoin

[DART8118]

Eoin,

Would you friendly railway historian have an information about the arches that are at Rostrevor Terrace?

There are 7 arches and in the embankment under the water tower there are 4 more.  Would they also have been used to take goods and materials from railway level to street level?  Also at that location there was a small turntable (I believe for turning wagons) and I think an inspection pit.  See OSI map of 1891.  There is also a stairs of 2 flights on the outside of the embankment wall and the cantilever supports for the top platform as still visible on Google Street View as is the outline of a redbrick doorframe.  Any information on what was going on here welcome.

Best regards

 

 

[warb]

Dart8118

These arches look as reduce the construction of the embankment due to the height and there was a stair access from street level to the water tower if correct. Hope this helps. ps the arches do not continue through to the other side of the embankment.

regards

warb

[murrayec]

Hi Dart8118

The Dublin & Kingstown Railway was constructed on a raised fill so not to interfere with the established streets of Dublin, the arches were constructed so public access under the rail line was provided as their was quite a bit of objection to constructing the line and cutting people off in their established communities.

The turn table was for turning locos and tenders to take trains back out of Westland Row for the return journey to Kingstown, they did similar in Kingstown and I read that they disconnected the loco & tender on the move before the station, allowing the train to run into the station on a slight up hill and relying on the guard to apply the breaks! The loco went off to the Carlisle pier turntable and then came back for the return to Westland Row

K A Murray's book is a great reference for this line

I believe the steps and extension platform are much later additions

Eoin

[DART8118]

Thanks Eoin.  Appreciated.

[Irishswissernie]

Whilst trying to identify the location of a Maunsell mogul on a slide received today I remembered that Broadstone Dublin ex M&GWR terminus also had a roundhouse as well as the 4 road straight shed

 

ERnie

[DART8118]

Thanks Warb.  Nice photos, especially of the water tank.

[leslie10646]

Thanks, Eoin, for doing that research - the old maps can be a mine of information.

Ernie, thanks for the shot of 137. Not for the loco, but it's the first view I think I have seen of the format of the rear wall of the Broadstone roundhouse. 

Now, who's going to build a model of Broadstone in MGWR days?  - The buildings are still there to work off and now we have a bit more info on the loco shed.

[murrayec]

I did a bit more searching around and found more on the Amiens Street 'Engine House';-

I found a far better map dated 1880 similar to the map above, with 3 buildings to the East of the station- all text labelled! 'Engine Ho.' for the building we're discussing, East to that 'Luggage Store' with a narrow connection back to the first building, and then East again 'Work Shop' on the building just before Lower Sheriff Street turns towards the Liffey.

While browsing Glenderg's photos again, I noticed a planning application notice on the wall of the second building in the last photo so I did a planning search on the DCC website and came up with two items;-

First;- a planning application for a dreadful major development of the whole station yard, the surrounding streets, offices and apartments towering over everything, permission was granted but noting in the documents relating to this discussion.

Second; a planning application in 2007 Ref; 5696/07 for demolition of a structure on top of the 'Engine Ho' and erection of a new driver facility- which is the building we possibly see in Glenderg's photos, possibly because this application was invalid! lucky though they left the documents on line for us see;-

Attached to the application is a Conservation Report as Connolly Station is a listed structure, in the report they describe the building as follows;-

'Engine House located at basement level running parallel along Sheriff Street and consists of three no. brick barrel vaults running east west supported by random rubble stone walls with arched openings'....'To the south of the building is the electrical sub station'... 'The walls consist of large white washed random rubble stone walls supporting the large barrel vaults. Several random rubble piers are located throughout the building'.... 'Several arched openings connect various rooms throughout the Engine House. The arched openings vary in size and consist both of brick and stone construction. Several openings have been blocked up in later years with concrete blockwork'....

Near the end of the report they say;-

They also mention that 'an extension of the public platform to the East extended over part of this building', so some of the Engine House is under the platform and not seen from Lower Sheriff Street.

It seems to be a cavernous sub-divided structure internally- a bit strange for an Engine House! and how did they get engines in? and why did it have large stone arches openings in the curved wall onto street level? Actually the curved wall is made up of 6 to 8 straight walls in an arc......

Eoin

[Garfield]

Perhaps the term ‘engine house’ might refer to a stationary engine, rather than covered storage of locomotives? Just a thought...

[jhb171achill]

Very interesting thread.

I would be inclined to go for one of the above theories other than a loco roundhouse, due to space at least.

Since roundhouses were so rare in Ireland, I can’t help thinking that’s its highly unlikely that the existence of one would go unnoticed by some of our most eminent railway historians over the years. 

If there ever was one, I would think it was in early Dublin & Drogheda days and didn’t last long....

[murrayec]

6 hours ago, Garfield said:

Perhaps the term ‘engine house’ might refer to a stationary engine, rather than covered storage of locomotives? Just a thought...

Hi Garfield

Yes I think that is most likely what it was for, also the issue of street level arched openings?;- I found a reference to the 'station being built on 27 arches to raise the track 24 foot above Amiens Street and a number of arches were used for storage of luggage, this is now the 'Vaults Bar''. These arches were accessed from the Eastern side adjacent to the Inner Dock and the building of our discussion is in the right location to transmit luggage down from a train and out through the arches to this storage area or through the link to the East Luggage Store building on Lower Sheriff Street.....maybe?

Eoin

Edited February 18, 2019 by murrayec

[Glenderg]

There's a couple of issues here - the luggage hall is still present, albeit missing it's first floor to the rear on Sherriff Street, not the vaults themselves - They may have been for bonded goods like rum & tobacco.

Anyway, this should clear things up. There are 8 minor ventilators shown on the roof and a much larger one centrally. 

R

[murrayec]

Excellent Glenderg,

Roundhouse it is.

I saw some of that detail in the planning documents but the scan by DCC was to black& white and the detail was almost imposable to make out because of the tone over the structure!

One thing about luggage back in those days, it wasn't just suitcases! Some folk who travelled to their country houses brought their furniture with them- no point in splashing out good money on a second set when it would just sit around for half the year. They would pack up their house and street cart it to the station or special facilities like Brownsbarn out on the Naas Road for delivery to their destination. This is one reason why a lot of houses in Dublin had rear enclosed coach buildings, they could sneak out the furniture at night to the rear so they would not be seen and shamed. Brownsbarn and some of the other companies provided huge carts pulled by oxen (cheaper to hire) and deliver to luggage stores in the one go and then street cart it to final destination.

The Brownsbarn building we see today is about 1/3 of what the company had to store luggage in as it was been prepared for the journey.

Eoin

Edited February 18, 2019 by murrayec

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Glenderg said:

There's a couple of issues here - the luggage hall is still present, albeit missing it's first floor to the rear on Sherriff Street, not the vaults themselves - They may have been for bonded goods like rum & tobacco.

Anyway, this should clear things up. There are 8 minor ventilators shown on the roof and a much larger one centrally. 

R

Interesting no obvious sign of a goods yard.

Goods traffic seems to have almost been an afterthought on early passenger carrying railways like the Liverpool & Manchester, Dublin & Drogheda, Cork and Bandon and Dublin and Drogheda.

Its possible that the Luggage Hall may have handled urgent or valuable goods traffic (wines, spirits, tobacco?) in addition to "Baggage".

Early coupled engines like the Liverpool & Manchester "Lion" 0-4-2 were described as a Luggage or Baggage Train locomotives, the MGWR had completed its main line to Galway and had 23 (2-2-2) passenger engines on the books before buying 0-4-0 No24 Hawthorn for "Baggage Train" service in 1852.

The original Amiens St terminus would make a very interesting and challenging model 

 

[murrayec]

19 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Interesting no obvious sign of a goods yard.

The original Amiens St terminus would make a very interesting and challenging model

Hi John

The 1880 map showing the goods yard and extended works

I don't like Connolly Station now it's such a mess, but I see Amiens St terminus in a whole different light! It's going on my list after I complete the Kingstown Station layout.

Mike Sharman- I saw a number of his loco many years ago at a show in the UK, his Crampton locos impressed me so I started to research Irish locos of the same vintage and came across the 'Hibernia' and it's sisters and have developed the drawings for D&KR 1834 locos, some of the Hibernia preliminary work for Gauge O is on my workbench thread. I just recently purchased his book on the Crampton Locomotives which is an incredible insight to the engines, stunning drawings and excellent tips to modelling them. Again another project on the list.....

Eoin

 

[Darren.d]

Speaking of sheds at amiens street.does anyone have an idea what were the buildings beside the large locomotive shed beside the turntable.iv seen a large chimney and a Redbrick building.but iv no idea what's behind them.there are other chimneys iv seen in ernies pictures but iv been unable to find anything else .any help would be appreciated. Thanks 

Dar.