IE logo period

[PaulC]

I’ve just received my first Irish loco in the guise of 071 number 085. Knowing nothing about the history of the liveries on these units would someone mind enlightening me as to the period this particular loco ran. 

If possible I’d also like to know what sort of stock the loco would have hauled. 

Many thanks in advance. 

 

Paul

[LostCarPark]

This logo was used from 1994 until sometime around 2010, and is sometimes referred to as the "3 pin plug" logo.

The following logos have been used:

• "Flying snail" CIE - 1945-63 (used by DUTC from 1941)
  
• "Broken Wheel" CIE - 1963- (modernised version still used by CIE)
  
• "IR" 4 rails/set of points logo from 1987, when IÉ became a separate company from CIÉ
  
• "3-pin Plug" above, 1994-2010ish [edit: corrected from 1987 in original post].
  
• Irishrail.ie "Swoosh", used fairly briefly from around 2010-2013. Phased out because it wasn't bilingual.
  
• Current IÉ logo (ugliest of the lot). Used since 2013.
  

 

[note: edited to tidy up images.]

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by LostCarPark
Tidied up images

[Rob]

In that livery, it would have hauled:

Passenger: Cravens / Mark 2 / Mark 3.

Freight: Tara Mines / Container Liners Flats / Sugar Beet / Fertilizer (?) / Cement / HOBS etc

Might be easier to say what they weren't hauling!  (Ammonia Wagons!)

 

[jhb171achill]

1.  The “Flying Snail” (as in my avatar thingy) was used by the Dublin United Tramways Co on their trams and buses from 1941. They had the company name in Irish across the central bar. In 1945 the DUTC was amalgamated with the Grand Canal Co., and the Great Southern Railways to form CIE, and the entire organisation used it, without any wording across the middle. I am unaware of any use of “on the ground” in the canal world, other than newspaper notices, but that’s another story.

Evidently, the snail was based on the London Underground logo.

2.  The “snail” was replaced by the “broken wheel” in 1962, but it would be several years before the new logo was a common sight; goods vans were still carrying occasional examples over ten years later - the last “snail” I saw on a goods van was, I think, 1976 or 1977.

3.  On the breakup of CIE into operation g subsidiaries in 1987, the “set of points” appeared. At this stage they stopped applying any logos to almost all freight wagons. I saw a few ballasts with it, but 42ft flats and fertilisers were niw pksin brown without logos. That said, tired and weathered “broken wheels” could be seen on a few ferts right until they stopped running.

4.  The “3-pin plug”, referred to above, about mid-1990s.

5.  The “N-shaped flag”, 2013. I agree that it’s not by a very long way the most impressive logo I’ve ever seen!!!!

Whats next..........?

 

[PaulC]

Perfect, thank you all for the info. Looks like I’m off to shop for some suitable IRM wagons now. 

Paul

[Ironroad]

As regards the logo used by the DUT and CIE, both my father and grandfather worked for CIE and they always referred to this logo as the "FLYING WHEEL" which is what it was intended to represent.

 It seems to me that referring to it as a "snail" is derogatory and it never ceases to disappoint me to see this perpetuated.     

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

As regards the logo used by the DUT and CIE, both my father and grandfather worked for CIE and they always referred to this logo as the "FLYING WHEEL" which is what it was intended to represent.

 It seems to me that referring to it as a "snail" is derogatory and it never ceases to disappoint me to see this perpetuated.     

It’s become “colloquial”, though. With anyone involved in developing it long since passed away, hopefully there’s nothing derogatory about it.

It’s been referred to as such for half a century now anyway....

“Wheel” is, of course, a very appropriate name, though with relatives in Inchicore myself I never heard of it!

[Old Blarney]

Troops,

I was born in the days of "Dublin United Transport" and the  "Great Southern Railway". I recollect open-top Tramcars stored at Donnybrook Depot. The wonderful trams on routes, 6,7,8,14, and 15. The  four Double-Deck, TD 11s on route 25 to Lucan.  Daimler buses DR1-6 on route 72, and the eleven AECs  AR 1-11 on route 23. During the years, 1948 and 1949  there was the introduction of the "Boltons" and "Capetown" Classes to replace the aforementioned tram routes,  These buses were also used on routes 9,10,11 and 18. Meanwhile, there was a continuing use of pre-war A and N Class single deck buses.  I travelled on each these, and  CIE's Victorian Railway Railway Stock. This included,  Six wheel coaches and , of course the 1930s Modern Drumm Trains, minus their Batteries. 

The logo carried in these vehicles is that displayed on JHB171 page.  When first introduced it was highlighted in gold lining. My understanding of the "Official Description" of this - Insignia, Emblem, Totem, Logo, Trade-mark - which-ever description you wish to assign to it, represented a Transport Company.  It was to there to state that their business provided "Speed-on-Wheels". This was the official description of the DUT symbol. It being  irreverently refereed to  as "The Flying Snail"  due to the lack of speed on certain services!

Ah, the memories!!!!!

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Don't look through the possibly thousands of references to the logo on this site as they will no doubt cause offense.

It's CIE, it's not like it ever had a TGV or a Bullet Train.

[DiveController]

8 hours ago, LostCarPark said:

 

• "IR" 4 rails logo from 1987, when IÉ became a separate company from CIÉ
  
• "3-pin Plug" above, 1987-2010ish

 

Former more usually referred to as the "set of points" logo rather than 4 rails.

I'm sure you meant to say 1994-2010 as you referenced in your post prior to that

5 hours ago, Ironroad said:

As regards the logo used by the DUT and CIE, both my father and grandfather worked for CIE and they always referred to this logo as the "FLYING WHEEL" which is what it was intended to represent.

 It seems to me that referring to it as a "snail" is derogatory and it never ceases to disappoint me to see this perpetuated.     

This would seem to make a lot of sense; the idea of a wheel and some variation on a set of wings to indicate strength or speed which is present in so many airline and car manufacturer logos. I never though of the Flying Snail as derogatory but perhaps being a little younger than some but not many on the forum and without the knowledge of the 'flying wheel', that thought never occurred to me until you brought it up.

As Old Blarney says it may have been derogatory to some extent in the same way that the Irish in general tend to derogate many things sometimes humorous and maybe sometimes not. I think that criticism of a rather slow system in general may be fair but the Ireland of 70 years ago was also very much a different place at a different pace. The railway served many functions that fostering community, social networks and a sense of unity and nationalism, many of which seem to have declined somewhat in recent decades To that end, regardless of the logos description in the vernacular I think the railway was treasured overall and that embodiment was the flying snail.

Now I shudder to think what offense we may have caused in (nick)naming the 'broken wheel' logo   

6 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Don't look through the possibly thousands of references to the logo on this site as they will no doubt cause offense.

It's CIE, it's not like it ever had a TGV or a Bullet Train.

And despite a decade and a half of a 'Celtic Tiger' economy never will ....

Edited February 29, 2020 by DiveController

[DiveController]

7 hours ago, Rob said:

In that livery, it would have hauled:

Passenger: Cravens / Mark 2 / Mark 3.

Freight: Tara Mines / Container Liners Flats / Sugar Beet / Fertilizer (?) / Cement / HOBS etc

Might be easier to say what they weren't hauling!  (Ammonia Wagons!)

 

That might not be strictly accurate. The Ammonia trains were hauled by predominantly by A and later 201s but have been also hauled by 141s, 121 pairs, 141/121 pair and 071s

082 Kent Station Cork 2001

082 in Kent with a NET Ammonia set bound for the NET plant on Great Island

Edited February 29, 2020 by DiveController

[Rob]

Interesting-  never knew or saw a 071 with an Ammonia set,  ever.

[josefstadt]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

1.  The “Flying Snail” (as in my avatar thingy) was used by the Dublin United Tramways Co on their trams and buses from 1941. They had the company name in Irish across the central bar. In 1945 the DUTC was amalgamated with the Grand Canal Co., and the Great Southern Railways to form CIE, and the entire organisation used it, without any wording across the middle. 

 

Slight correction on the timeline above JHB:

1 Jan 1945 - the DUTC and the GSR amalgamated to form CIE which was then still a private company, although it was in receipt of state-aid;

1 June 1950 - CIE and the Grand Canal amalgamated the new entity retaining the name CIE. CIE became a nationalised company at this time. 

[LostCarPark]

The "flying wheel/snail" was out of use before I was born, and I never heard the term before the internet. It may have originally been a derogatory term, but like many such names it stuck, and I don't think most people using it today use it with any negative tones. There's certainly a humourous intent, and for me it just comes across as a fun description of the logo. Should we avoid using it? 

[Irishswissernie]

7 hours ago, Rob said:

Interesting-  never knew or saw a 071 with an Ammonia set,  ever.

I think I only saw them a couple of times. This one was 11 June 2001 in the distance whilst I was videoing freight at North Wall. Click on the video its only 30 seconds long and is the usual crap quality. I'm still working on how to convert the original tapes through the computer.

Ernie

Edited February 29, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[Rob]

Brilliant!   Never saw that ever!

[jhb171achill]

15 hours ago, josefstadt said:

Slight correction on the timeline above JHB:

1 Jan 1945 - the DUTC and the GSR amalgamated to form CIE which was then still a private company, although it was in receipt of state-aid;

1 June 1950 - CIE and the Grand Canal amalgamated the new entity retaining the name CIE. CIE became a nationalised company at this time. 

My error entirely! I knew about the nationalisation dates but the canal detail slipped my mind!

[minister_for_hardship]

I checked the "official" written history of CIÉ earlier (On The Move, Micheal Ó Riain), that colloquial term is used more than once!

[Galteemore]

Beats the ‘arrows of indecision’ any day! 
 

 

[NIR]

This invites the question: did the NIR or NIR ligature ever have a name?

Edited February 29, 2020 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

57 minutes ago, NIR said:

This invites the question: did the NIR or NIR ligature ever have a name?

Not that I ever heard - and given my age, I was old enough to remember any nickname for it from day 1!  (1968!)

[WRENNEIRE]

Norn Iron?

[DiveController]

18 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I checked the "official" written history of CIÉ earlier (On The Move, Micheal Ó Riain), that colloquial term is used more than once!

Drew McDonald et al. book "A Decade of Steam: on CIE in the 1950s" (1974) written 25 years before that official history also refers to the emblem as being 'popularly' known as The Flying Snail

[Galteemore]

Drew Donaldson - now there was a character! What contributions he would have made to this forum - his writing still fizzes with his personality some 40 years after his death. That is a most interesting book, but the only copy I have seen had serious quality control issues, and the pages I wanted to look at on the F6 tanks had been left out! Drew seems to have rather liked the brighter livery of the snail era, as his stock is liberally painted green whether it warranted it or not. I met Drew but sadly was far too young to appreciate it. I have never forgotten the sight and sound of his layout though !

[jhb171achill]

He must be dead some 40 years now, as he died just after I started volunteering at Whitehead. I had only met him once, and very briefly, but the impression remains - he was a larger-than-life character, all right!

[Galteemore]

Yes, JHB, if memory serves he was killed cycling c1978. Devoted to clockwork - or ‘spring drives’ (his locos were impressively engineered), he referred to people who used electricity to operate their layouts as ‘sparksmen’. Mind you, between us we could clog up this thread with tales of the characters who still graced the RPSI into the 80s! But to revert to the original point, I think ‘flying snail’ is on a par with ‘floozie in the jacuzzi’ or ‘tart with the cart’ - it’s affectionate ownership and my layout will be liberally festooned with snails - but not on the tanks of my CIE locos  

Edited March 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[h gricer]

On 2/29/2020 at 2:01 AM, Rob said:

Interesting-  never knew or saw a 071 with an Ammonia set,  ever.

The first 9 tank ammonia trial ran on Sunday 23rd January 1994 with 071class 080, the 071s worked the ammonia intermittently till the 201class became firmly established on the workings, 072 075 and 082 were regulars.

Regards

h gricer

[jhb171achill]

And of course there have been previous threads on here about nicknames given to types of locomotives and so on.....