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THE FLYING SNAIL LOGO....

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HI GUYS ANYONE ON HERE GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHERE I WOULD SEE AN IRISH LOCOMOTIVE WITH THE FLYING SNAIL LOGO ON IT 

REGARDS

BTB

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HI & THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR EFFORTS SO FAR, I FORGOT TO SAY WITH BOTH SIDES....SHOWING......'!!!
BTB

 

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JASUS, IM LOOKING FOR PHOTOS OF ANY LOCO / CARRIAGE / WAGONS WITH THE FLYING SNAIL SYMBOL EVEN IF ITS IN A MIRROR...SMART ASS......😎 

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This calls to mind a question that's been bugging me for a while...

On my Lima N-Gauge loco, it has the same logo on both sides (the logo and number are also the wrong colour, but we'll let that go for now):

20200227_120720.jpg

As far as I know, on locos generally had the flying snail with the top wing pointing forwards, so the side above is correct, but the other side should be mirrored.

Does anyone know if this was always the case, or were there exceptions?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LostCarPark said:

This calls to mind a question that's been bugging me for a while...

On my Lima N-Gauge loco, it has the same logo on both sides (the logo and number are also the wrong colour, but we'll let that go for now):

20200227_120720.jpg

As far as I know, on locos generally had the flying snail with the top wing pointing forwards, so the side above is correct, but the other side should be mirrored.

Does anyone know if this was always the case, or were there exceptions?

The ones on Lima stock are far too elongated as well.

The photos I've seen seen so far conform to what Garfield says. Many tender locos appear not to have received any logo at all.

Edited by minister_for_hardship

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7 hours ago, burnthebox said:

JASUS, IM LOOKING FOR PHOTOS OF ANY LOCO / CARRIAGE / WAGONS WITH THE FLYING SNAIL SYMBOL EVEN IF ITS IN A MIRROR...SMART ASS......😎 

rpsi 461 all the woodeners b124

 

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Posted (edited)

The “snail” on the diesel is the wrong way round.

As far as steam tenders were concerned, even towards the end of steam many tenders had no logo. It’s not that they hadn’t been painted since GSR days, it’s just that they didn’t always apply them.

As mentioned by others, the standard snail  had wings at the top on the left, lower on the right. If you look at my avatar thing, which is a photo of an actual one on a board painted with CIE green paint in Inchicore, that’s the standard transfer. 

This was used on absolutely all applications this way round, including all diesels and any carriages that had it - with just two exceptions. One was the offside of a tender, and the other the driver’s side of a bus, or a road lorry.

Buses and loco tenders travelled in one direction only (we’ll ignore tender-first running!), so they always had to look as if the upper “wing” was leading. Thus, these alone had a reversed “snail” on the offside. This would be as on the green diesel in your pic.

However, all diesels, carriages, wagons had the standard type, as per avatar, on both sides. 

Apart from the colour you rightly mention above - no “snail” was ever white on anything other than wagons - it’s the wrong shape anyway, with the “wings” a bit too long, and the cab number should be pale yellow too.

That said, I always thought that for “N” gauge, they were a nice little loco, albeit of across-the-pond provenance.

A dose of heavy weathering will dumb down the white and make the thing look more realistic anyway.

It need hardly be added that yellow “flying snails” on absolutely anything but grey 121s and the grey and yellow touring buses, were never used. Thus, no yellow tender versions. On steam engines without exception, pale green “flying snails” but pale yellow cabside numbers.

Edited by jhb171achill
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Railcar snails were all of the standard type it seems, no matter which side.

I did see one rare occurance of a reversed snail on publicity material, on a timetable poster still stuck to a posterboard in a derelict station. I never thought to seek to procure it or take a photo. Shortly afterwards the place was burnt out and the poster, board and all incinerated.

20200309_114811.jpg

20200309_115531.jpg

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Posted (edited)
On 3/5/2020 at 8:24 PM, burnthebox said:


 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.65de7d581c4e3bf353cf730309a8c948.jpegWELL GUYS THIS IS WHAT IM ON ABOUT.......😎

Hi guys, here’s some info on the item which was on Ebay some time ago & I made an offer to the seller based on my suspicions that the logo was wrong...he didn’t accept my offer & said that he had bought the item from Silver Fox Models...& that he the seller was now going to contact SFM and as a result the item was removed from EBay...so I never got a bargain, I offered €40.00, he was asking €140.00

BTB

Edited by burnthebox

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2 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

If I were you, I'd wait it out for the upcoming IRM A Class.

Hi Minister & thanks, my A Class is on order with IRM...

BTB

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On 3/5/2020 at 8:24 PM, burnthebox said:


 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.65de7d581c4e3bf353cf730309a8c948.jpegWELL GUYS THIS IS WHAT IM ON ABOUT.......😎

Hi GUYS, BIT MORE INFO REQUIRED ON THIS, IS THE DIRECTION THE LOCO IS GOING THE DIRECTION THE LOGO, ( SNAIL ) SHOULD BE FACING, AND IS THAT TOWARDS THE DRIVER POSITION IN THIS INSTANCE.  !! MAYBE TO BE MORE ACCURATE IS THIS SNAIL ON  THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LOCO. !!! 
TIA

BTB

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I can perhaps illustrate it like this, albeit extremely crudely:

BTB, you'll see many pics in books of both steam and diesel locomotives (and buses, carriages, railcars and wagons) showing the "flying snail". Dublin trams too, going back to 1941. Some of these also had the bus-style reversed symbol.

What is below ticked in green, and on my avatar thingy to the left here, is the "right way round", with the "wings" on the top left, not top right.

All diesel locos should have it the other way round from shown on the model. So should absolutely everything else on the railway, bar ONE side of steam loco tenders.

IMG_E1215.JPG

9 hours ago, burnthebox said:

Hi GUYS, BIT MORE INFO REQUIRED ON THIS, IS THE DIRECTION THE LOCO IS GOING THE DIRECTION THE LOGO, ( SNAIL ) SHOULD BE FACING, AND IS THAT TOWARDS THE DRIVER POSITION IN THIS INSTANCE.  !! MAYBE TO BE MORE ACCURATE IS THIS SNAIL ON  THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LOCO. !!! 
TIA

BTB

No. Diesel locos can go in both directions, thus it doesn't matter which side - it should be the "normal" logo, not this reversed one shown. No diesel loco ever carried one like that.

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HI & THANKS GUYS, SO TO SUM UP, IF THE UPPER WINGS ARE ABOVE THE “ A “ ON THE LOCO,, THE SNAIL WOULD BE CORRECT,  RIGHT!!!
BTB

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Hi Guys i have a question for the experts, Over on a narrow guage forum some oen has asked what colour was the Flying Snail on narrow gauge coaches and wagons, a lot of modellers have gone for white, but there is now doubt if this is correct or should it be light green?

 

Colin   

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On 3/12/2020 at 8:32 PM, jhb171achill said:

I can perhaps illustrate it like this, albeit extremely crudely:

BTB, you'll see many pics in books of both steam and diesel locomotives (and buses, carriages, railcars and wagons) showing the "flying snail". Dublin trams too, going back to 1941. Some of these also had the bus-style reversed symbol.

What is below ticked in green, and on my avatar thingy to the left here, is the "right way round", with the "wings" on the top left, not top right.

All diesel locos should have it the other way round from shown on the model. So should absolutely everything else on the railway, bar ONE side of steam loco tenders.

IMG_E1215.JPG

No. Diesel locos can go in both directions, thus it doesn't matter which side - it should be the "normal" logo, not this reversed one shown. No diesel loco ever carried one like that.

Useful advice. So never point the canon in the direction of travel except on a dual cab diesel loco. 

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6 hours ago, Colin R said:

Hi Guys i have a question for the experts, Over on a narrow guage forum some oen has asked what colour was the Flying Snail on narrow gauge coaches and wagons, a lot of modellers have gone for white, but there is now doubt if this is correct or should it be light green?

 

Colin   

They were never, ever white on anything other than wagons, nor were the lining bits white. CIE used a transfer, and they were all as the logo thing I use on the left hand side of what you're reading - that's a real one, which is currently in Enniskillen Railway Museum. There's one in the Malahide model museum too, which will eventually be displayed on the wall somewhere.

The transfers were light green ("eau-de-nil"), lined in gold. although I am aware of at least one coach on the West Cork system that had them painted. Other than the exceptions mentioned above, they always faced the way you can see on the left.

In later days, especially on old stock about to be withdrawn, paintwork and transfers became worn and weathered. The Cavan & Leitrim in particular, due to the GSR's short sight economy in demolishing every carriage shelter on the system, ended its days with rolling stock in an absolutely disgraceful state of filth and tattiness. On stock as neglected as this, lining and / or "flying snails" often got so badly weathered and faded that it looked whitish; the emulsions in some colour transparencies of the day are not kind to green shades after decades in storage, so colour slides nowadays are impaired. I have seen some among Cyril Fry's slides where's a green B101 appears to be in shades of pink and purple.

When CIE tok over from the GSR in 1945, "snails" on wagons were even painted light green, but this reverted to cream/white in the 1950s.

You mention a "narrow gauge forum" - is there much Irish stuff on it?

 

5 hours ago, Noel said:

Useful advice. So never point the canon in the direction of travel except on a dual cab diesel loco. 

As per the little logo to the left of this, always, on all diesel locos.

Opposite way to this ONLY on ONE (drivers) side of the following:

- Road vehicles (buses & trucks)

- tender of steam engine

I like your description as a "cannon"! Using that analogy, on all diesels, carriages and wagons, cannon points left, without any exceptions! Buses, trucks and steam tends, it points right ONLY on driver's side!

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On 3/12/2020 at 11:26 AM, burnthebox said:

Hi GUYS, BIT MORE INFO REQUIRED ON THIS, IS THE DIRECTION THE LOCO IS GOING THE DIRECTION THE LOGO, ( SNAIL ) SHOULD BE FACING, AND IS THAT TOWARDS THE DRIVER POSITION IN THIS INSTANCE.  !! MAYBE TO BE MORE ACCURATE IS THIS SNAIL ON  THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LOCO. !!! 
TIA

BTB

BTB, you were asking about your pic of the A class above - the makers have put it the wrong way round. Easily remedied with transfers!

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Hi John

We have two groups with more than a passing interest in Irish Narrow Gauge:-

IrishThreeFoot@groups.io

00n3modellers@groups.io

Come on in and join, both groups have a period of all and then nothing for a while.

  The information you have posted above will be more than helpfull to those who asked the question

 

Colin

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8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

BTB, you were asking about your pic of the A class above - the makers have put it the wrong way round. Easily remedied with transfers!

Hi JHB & many thanks, the only information I have for the loco is that it’s a SF Model...& the owner has returned it to SF,...! & having said that I’ve seen only recently on this site another example of a loco ( Steam ) with the snail facing the Wrong! way..

BTB

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13 minutes ago, burnthebox said:

Hi JHB & many thanks, the only information I have for the loco is that it’s a SF Model...& the owner has returned it to SF,...! & having said that I’ve seen only recently on this site another example of a loco ( Steam ) with the snail facing the Wrong! way..

BTB

Yes, there seems much confusion..... it’s simple enough, in reality, as you know!

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Posted (edited)

IMG_3348.JPG.c1e6a237cd312c88059e03b4de6               

This is the correct colour, shape, dimensions and orientation for ALL circumstances, other than those outlined below. It is a photo of an actual one, and on actual CIE paint.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Authentic use of CIE “Flying Snail” emblem 1945-62

 

Logo reversed on DRIVERS’ SIDE ONLY (Right Hand Side) where “reversed” is noted in 3rd column. Normal, as per avatar on left of this post, on other side. In other words, top bit pointed forward on each side. In all cases the light green logo was lined in gold, unless otherwise stated

Type

 

Colour of “Snail”

 

Facing:

 

Notes

 

Steam Tender Locomotives

 

 

Reversed RHS only

Logo never carried on loco, only on tender. Most but not all tenders carried them.

Steam Tank Locomotives

None carried

Diesel “A” Class

 

 

Some entered traffic without any, but had the cut-out metal ones added later, painted light green.

A1 may have entered traffic with a silver one, but light green was the norm. Logo not lined in gold, but a cut-out metal shape painted light green.

Diesel “B101” Class

None carried

Diesel “B121” Class

Lined in black

 

 

Logo lined in black

Diesel “C” Class

None carried

Diesel “F” Class (Narrow gauge)

None carried

Diesel “G601” Class

None carried

Diesel “G611” Class

None carried

Carriages

Lt. green when carried

 

 

See note below table

 

Railcars

 

 

A few railcars in the later post-’55 light green livery did not have “snails”

There may have been examples of an offside “reversed” on some. Certainly, most had normal logo on BOTH sides.

Wagons, vans etc.

White

 

 

(wagons always grey)

1945-51 or so, light green painted on. After that, painted white. After c.1959, stencilled white rather than painted.

By the time wagons started being painted brown, the “snail” was gone some eight years, so no brown wagons ever had it.

Departmental stock

See note…

 

 

On some stock, none carried. Others, white logo painted on

Buses (single & double deck)

 

 

Reversed drivers side only

Once the red / cream and navy / cream bus liveries appeared in ’62, a few were for a short time seen with white “snails”, especially in and around Cork.

Touring coaches (grey and yellow)

Lined in white

Reversed drivers side only

Logo lined in white

Road lorries

 

 

Reversed drivers side only

 

 

Canals & Shipping (Aran Island Ferry)

None carried

Dublin Trams

 

 

 

 

 

 

Howth Trams

None carried

Howth Tramway closed after less than a year in CIE ownership – all trams retained GNR livery to end

 

 

Note regarding carriages:

 

In the older dark green livery, as seen approximated on Bachmann coaches, the transfer was always lined in gold. After 1955, many new carriages had the same, but some had an unlined light green “snail”, whereas other had none at all.

In later years, several secondary carriages, especially in West Cork, were in the older dark green, unlined, and with painted light green “snails”.

Common myths:

 

1.    Steam engine tenders – either in green, normal grey, or latter-day black (for some), there was never a yellow or white “flying snail” on anything. The cabside number was painted a light yellow colour, but the “snail” was just the standard bus / coach transfer as seen in avatar on left. It is possible that the application of non-authentic yellow “snails” to preserved 184 and 461 in the 1990s gave rise to this idea.

2.       White on narrow-gauge vehicles. The C & L stock in particular was allowed by CIE to get into a most appalling state of dishevelment, with many vehicles at closure not having seen a paintbrush since 1945. The pale green tended to fade (as did the green), and the emulsions in colour slide film in those days, and the fact that most colour pics of the line were taken in march 1959, in winter lighting, just a few weeks before it closed, have all given rise to understandable assumptions that things were white on dark green. Not so; same transfers as everywhere else.

 

 

Edited by jhb171achill
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Posted (edited)

Is it fair to say the reversed snail only appeared on vehicles that had a single direction of travel*, ie: where the snail could be made to point in the same forward direction on each side by changing it's handedness.

* except, maybe, some railcars as noted

I love this forum!

Edited by NIR

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53 minutes ago, NIR said:

Is it fair to say the reversed snail only appeared on vehicles that had a single direction of travel*, ie: where the snail could be made to point in the same forward direction on each side by changing it's handedness.

* except, maybe, some railcars as noted

I love this forum!

That about sums it up, NIR, more concisely that I have! Yes, exactly. On such vehicles, whichever side you looked at, it was always pointing forward.

I might add that curiously, examples of both "correct" and "opposite" ways round were to be found at the head of newspaper advertisements!

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I'm certain I've come across a period colour postcard of Naomh Eanna with snails on the funnel, possibly the broken wheel logo carried subsequently was made by flame cutting off the 'wings' and adding 'CIE'. The CIE river cruisers also carried snails, canal boats were simply lettered 'C.I.E.' on the stern.

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3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I'm certain I've come across a period colour postcard of Naomh Eanna with snails on the funnel, possibly the broken wheel logo carried subsequently was made by flame cutting off the 'wings' and adding 'CIE'. The CIE river cruisers also carried snails, canal boats were simply lettered 'C.I.E.' on the stern.

I'd be interested to see a pic of "Naomh Eanna" with a snail - when I saw it years ago it didn't have one then, nor in any pic I saw - unless it had one when new?  I had forgotten to mention the cruisers at all above....

Makes me wonder now - I wonder did CIE have any delivery bicycles in small towns, like the GNR did?

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