Westcorkrailway's workbench

[Westcorkrailway]

Alex Duggan sent me a rough model of the CBSCR Bandon tank will look like in order to try put on my B12 chassis. The results speak for themselves as even with no motor (removed in some of the pictures below) 

 

My query is maybe i could find an 0-6-0 chassis, and then add the bogeys to that. Something like an austerity, 1998 hornby terrier or bachmann billy. Anything with the right wheelbase (about 85mm at maximim)  and where the motor allows the loco shell to fit

Motor equipped, C212 is there as a reference

These 2 photos demonstrate that even with no motor, it looks smart but is still too high and of course...isin't motorised

using a 1/2 model, we see why the high motor gets in the way

[Galteemore]

That half model is really useful! That looks a pretty ancient open frame motor. Is the new Hornby model smaller ? As you say, may be better going for an 0-6-0 of some sort, with separate bogie. What size drivers are on a Bandon tank ? 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

That half model is really useful! That looks a pretty ancient open frame motor. Is the new Hornby model smaller ? 

The tri-ang version of this B12 chassis actually fits better with this shell. This is a later version of the b12. There is a very recent re-tool but that has dual flywheels and all sorts of fancy stuff, hence why its so expensive......plus i dont need tender pickups and this fancy stuff

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Also, the driving wheels of the bandon apear to be about 5'2.5 ft.

Terriers are 4'8

b12s are 6'6

Pannier tanks have 4'7.5

 

There too small but panniers or terriers are closer to 5'3 then 6'6 B12s

[Galteemore]

LMS 4F is 5’3” and can probably be acquired fairly cheaply if you go for an older one. 

[WRENNEIRE]

Loads of cheap Lima 4F's but they are HO methinks, they never made an OO one.

[Galteemore]

Yes, I was thinking Airfix for a cheap trial one.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324557016104

Edited April 10, 2021 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

The one thing i would fret over a fowler 4f is its length. The bandon tanks wheels are relitively close together while the 4f has much further apart wheels.

Fowlers 4f looks to have about 90mm wheelbase....longer then the B12 

We see here in a seperate 3d model for a 1:24 scale bandon tank by Christopher Tebutt. It shows those wheels being closer then the 4f

[Galteemore]

That’s a really nice model. Can you tell us more about it? 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

That’s a really nice model. Can you tell us more about it? 

That 1:24 scale is completely moddled, however organising a doner chassis and actually printing such a large engine is another. It would suit the model village nicely

 

 

[jhb171achill]

What scale is it? "0"?

[David Holman]

Roughly G scale, If think. 0 is 1/43 and Gauge 1 is approx 1/32

[Mayner]

According to Clements & McMahon (The Bible) the Bandon tanks had 3' bogie wheels 5'2" drivers. bogie wheelbase 6'+6'9"+6'3"+6'3".

The B12 chassis looks reasonably close in terms of coupled wheelbase the main issue is the motor and driving wheel size and it would be simple enough to make a new bogie swing link from metal or 3D printing.

It might be worth checking whether an X04 motor or a modern modern replacement will fit your chassis https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130573-alternative-motor-to-triang-x04/

These motors were originally fitted to the B12 and other Tri-ang/Tri-ang Hornby steam locos and may not be as tall as the motor motor in your B12 chassis.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-HORNBY-LNER-B12-LOCO-CHASSIS-ONLY-No-1-/133169865541

The best solution to sorting out the driving wheel problem would be to replace with Markits driving wheels as they are quite simple to set up but expensive, otherwise you could try replace the existing driving wheels with a set from a Hornby Jinty or 0-6-0 diesel but would be challenging to set up if the locos do not have keeper plate chassis that allow the complete wheel sets to drop out.

[Westcorkrailway]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

According to Clements & McMahon (The Bible) the Bandon tanks had 3' bogie wheels 5'2" drivers. bogie wheelbase 6'+6'9"+6'3"+6'3".

The B12 chassis looks reasonably close in terms of coupled wheelbase the main issue is the motor and driving wheel size and it would be simple enough to make a new bogie swing link from metal or 3D printing.

It might be worth checking whether an X04 motor or a modern modern replacement will fit your chassis https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130573-alternative-motor-to-triang-x04/

These motors were originally fitted to the B12 and other Tri-ang/Tri-ang Hornby steam locos and may not be as tall as the motor motor in your B12 chassis.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-HORNBY-LNER-B12-LOCO-CHASSIS-ONLY-No-1-/133169865541

The best solution to sorting out the driving wheel problem would be to replace with Markits driving wheels as they are quite simple to set up but expensive, otherwise you could try replace the existing driving wheels with a set from a Hornby Jinty or 0-6-0 diesel but would be challenging to set up if the locos do not have keeper plate chassis that allow the complete wheel sets to drop out.

Unfortunately, the original tri-ang model fits better.....but still does not work.

3d printing a new bogey swing or a new bogey itself minus the wheels could also work and help accommodate a longer 0-6-0 wheelbase with a lower motor 

Bare in mind, the loco was printed specifically at 110 percent its original size to accommodate the b12 chassis so the origional wheelbase would look off on this model, hence fowler 4fs are a good option if the motor is not too high

 

 

[Galteemore]

Apologies - the Airfix one won’t work as it’s tender drive!  So you may need to look at another manufacturer. To be honest, you might be as well making your own frame for this. It is far from as daunting as it sounds - Simon Bolton has a number of useful books which helped me build my first frames. https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30874693493&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-tile2&searchurl=kn%3DSimon%2BBolton%2Bscratch%26sortby%3D17

Edited April 11, 2021 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

Apologies - the Airfix one won’t work as it’s tender drive!  So you may need to look at another manufacturer. To be honest, you might be as well making your own frame for this. It is far from as daunting as it sounds - Simon Bolton has a number of useful books which helped me build my first frames. https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30874693493&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-tile2&searchurl=kn%3DSimon%2BBolton%2Bscratch%26sortby%3D17

A rolling chassis could still be a good starting point. Hide the tender as a "tin van" or something rediculous if i wanted it driven. Hell i could even turn the rolling chassis into a motorised one. That is if it suits the bandon tank more then the b12 one

[Westcorkrailway]

Im a bit late to the 121 party, but alas its a HUGE step-up from anything ive ever had before. Aside from one of the LED's not working on the back. What a model! Some of my high end 1:32 stuff doesn't have that much detail. 

[Westcorkrailway]

Have had these coaches for years with my Hornby b12 that I had as a child (not long ago then!) little did I know that my b12 would become a Bandon tank and these coaches will become CIE…Ified

granted there aren’t too many coaches like this, the closest being that 1906 Rosslare stock and that has 12 wheels compared to my 8. Anyways with the A class around the corner (like we might get them by Friday) my 121 and C class lacking rolling stock, (unless I pay £20000 for the Bachman USA ones on ebag) I might as well start with the 2 of these I have, I have Railtec transfers on order. And black spray paint but I was wondering what would be the best way to go about it for a rookie such as myself when it comes to painting coaches anyway

 

i still need to pin down a green for the main body of the coaches and a grey for the 5 plank hornby wagons I have had for a while.

[popeye]

A picture of the real thing would help you to see what is needed colour wise and any other detail

that needs to be added.

Should be nice. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by popeye

[Westcorkrailway]

52 minutes ago, popeye said:

A picture of the real thing would help you to see what is needed colour wise and any other detail

that needs to be added.

Should be nice. 

 

from another thread. The rosslare 1906 coach (I think) in a version of CIE green 

and even so, there were multiple CIE greens, I don’t think the transfers provided by railtec cover this livery but rather the slightly darker CIE green. (As far as I know there are 3 CIE greens) one like the one above, one like A46 or the Bachman CIE coaches, and one somewhere inbeteeen the two 

[jhb171achill]

The green you have on your "C" behind is the same green the coach would be if you want mid to late 50s - so just match that, and don't forget to weather it within an inch of its life!  Ends and roof black (weathered black!), not grey.

In late 50s livery, a single thin pale green line at waist level. And in that livery some carriages had "flying snail" logos, but many (possibly a good half of them) had none.

If you want the earlier livery, it's a darker "leaf green". By the late 50s it had almost disappeared, except in West Cork! That will have a broader waistline, plus a much thicker one above window level, plus "snails".

There's a third "localised" Cork variation. In Albert Quay, several old bogies were painted in the older dark green, with "snails" but with no lining at all. So there are three variations, with both shades of green represented.

2 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

 

from another thread. The rosslare 1906 coach (I think) in a version of CIE green 

and even so, there were multiple CIE greens, I don’t think the transfers provided by railtec cover this livery but rather the slightly darker CIE green. (As far as I know there are 3 CIE greens) one like the one above, one like A46 or the Bachman CIE coaches, and one somewhere inbeteeen the two 

There were just two greens (see my last post); the above being a very new and clean version of the 1955-62 one. The transfers for the "snails" are the same on both, and the light green lining is the same colour on both, but wider on the dark green version (1945-55).

Beware of white or yellow (or even gold!) transfers for CIE coaches which some manufacturers persist in offering; these are plain wrong in all circumstances, like a purple one would be! No green coach ever had lining or snails in anything but this watery light green, called "eau-de-nil".

Pre-1955, many wagon "snails" were also in this colour, rather than white.... but that's another story, of course!

[popeye]

It is very pale but Railtec snails are a little dark and I wish they could do some pale ones.

It's up to you, I would put white ones on and dirty them up a bit to take the brightness off them.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

8 hours ago, popeye said:

It is very pale but Railtec snails are a little dark and I wish they could do some pale ones.

It's up to you, I would put white ones on and dirty them up a bit to take the brightness off them.

 

The transfers on my silverfox C class are white, but the green behind them has leaked through a small bit and have made them look a small bit bettter. but I’ll try use the railtec ones anyway, if there too dark then I’ll just make them the very dark early livery

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The green you have on your "C" behind is the same green the coach would be if you want mid to late 50s - so just match that, and don't forget to weather it within an inch of its life!  Ends and roof black (weathered black!), not grey.

In late 50s livery, a single thin pale green line at waist level. And in that livery some carriages had "flying snail" logos, but many (possibly a good half of them) had none.

If you want the earlier livery, it's a darker "leaf green". By the late 50s it had almost disappeared, except in West Cork! That will have a broader waistline, plus a much thicker one above window level, plus "snails".

There's a third "localised" Cork variation. In Albert Quay, several old bogies were painted in the older dark green, with "snails" but with no lining at all. So there are three variations, with both shades of green represented.

There were just two greens (see my last post); the above being a very new and clean version of the 1955-62 one. The transfers for the "snails" are the same on both, and the light green lining is the same colour on both, but wider on the dark green version (1945-55).

Beware of white or yellow (or even gold!) transfers for CIE coaches which some manufacturers persist in offering; these are plain wrong in all circumstances, like a purple one would be! No green coach ever had lining or snails in anything but this watery light green, called "eau-de-nil".

Pre-1955, many wagon "snails" were also in this colour, rather than white.... but that's another story, of course!

I’m well alware that it’s au de nil or nil when it comes to lining these coaches. It’s just the green of the body I’m not certain in, perhaps trying to match it with the C class would be the best job. That 3rd livery seen exclusively in west cork can be seen on the back cover of the latest IRRS journal

 

I didn’t think au de nil was used on wagons at all, I’ll be using white snails on them anyway

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The transfers on my silverfox C class are white, but the green behind them has leaked through a small bit and have made them look a small bit bettter. but I’ll try use the railtec ones anyway, if there too dark then I’ll just make them the very dark early livery

I’m well alware that it’s au de nil or nil when it comes to lining these coaches. It’s just the green of the body I’m not certain in, perhaps trying to match it with the C class would be the best job. That 3rd livery seen exclusively in west cork can be seen on the back cover of the latest IRRS journal

 

I didn’t think au de nil was used on wagons at all, I’ll be using white snails on them anyway

Yes, CIE used the EDN initially on wagon numerals and painted-on "snails", but white seems to have replaced this in the early 50s. There were a few antique wagons still carrying it in West Cork, and on the Cavan & Leitrim, in the late 50s / early 60s.

White lining and snails, as used by Silverfox, is quite simply wrong - but as mentioned above a bit of careful weathering will sort it out - sometimes it faded; on one of the two Arigna branch brake composites you'd swear the line above the windows WAS white due to the dreadful state of fading in the paint, towards the end.

And yes, matching your C is by far the best option - or that picture you posted above of a clean Rosslare dining car in Cork shows it better - and cleaner.

[Westcorkrailway]

VINTAGE ANTIQUE CIE  1960S FLOSS ONLY €699.99

What this actually is, is a failed experiment with some of my white transfers. They take a lot of convincing to come off (very hot water and the adhesive would not budge) so I just superglued you the nearest plastic I could find and rubbed it off. While this worked ok, my snails are facing the wrong way round like if they were on the right hand side of a tender  

 

does anyone know how to get these transfers off? They might not even be water based but I taught they were…maybe boiling water will make them slide?

Edited October 6, 2021 by Westcorkrailway

[Georgeconna]

you superglued the Transfers on, am I right reading that, Most Transfers are waterslide.

[jhb171achill]

If they're superglued, you'd have job getting them off! If it's awkward, paint over them.

In reality, if you look at photos of coaches in the 1955-63 green livery, nothing close to all of them had any "snails" at all; I guess perhaps 40% didn't, so a lack of a "snail" is quite authentic.

Same with steam locos, by the way; many tenders were just plain grey. I've seen a picture of at least one green tender too with no "snail", though its possible the transfer (unlike yours!) had come off or worn off........

[Galteemore]

Use Microsol solution ? 

[Westcorkrailway]

17 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

you superglued the Transfers on, am I right reading that, Most Transfers are waterslide.

I can’t even get them off the card they came on at the moment, from what I’ve read, you leave them in luke warm water for 10-25 seconds and they should slide off the card where then you can slide them onto the loco/rolling stock (I was intending on putting theme on open wagons) but….no matter what I tried they absolutely would not come off the card they came on

 

so I superglued the front of the transfer onto the floss and scratched away the paper (so the adhesive is now facing the out) but obviously. Supergluing on transfers the wrong way round is not ideal 

I have plenty more of these white snail locos they only cost 2 euro for a load of them hence my experimentation, and I can sacrifice many more of these transfers if need be . I just can’t get them off the card they arrived on 

 

[murrayec]

@Westcorkrailway

As George says if they are waterslide type use warm water only- if printed on a transparent carrier sheet cut each decal out of the sheet in a square or around the decal, if they are printed on the paper carrier sheet only, cut them out on a square of the paper carrier. Immerse in water for 30-60 secs or until you can slide them on the paper carrier, leave them on the paper carrier slightly slid off and holding the paper carrier with a tweezers to transfer it to the model and slide the decal off the paper carrier onto the model. As Galteemore suggests you can also use Microsol solution- but be careful the solution can soften the decal if left for to long and it may go out of shape! 

Use a cotton bud to squeeze the water out from under the decal, dabbing or rolling the bud on edge, working out from centre of the decal to its edge, this removes water and air from underneath- do not rub the bud across the decal cause the decal will move or tare.

Some waterslide decals benefit from a coat of varnish or lacquer (not water based) to protect the ink before you immerse them in water- nothing worse than the decal ink coming off on the bud!

Use Microsol later after the decal has dried on the model, this will help it to stick down better, and again using a bud as described above. If the decals are not lacquered this process can destroy them.

One other thing to consider- they may be rub off decals?? like the way Letraset works!

Eoin

[RobertRoche]

Leave them in the water for longer as Eoin has said, I find that some of the transfers might need a minute or two in the water before they start to move. If you leave them too long they might come off in the water, but you can experiment with that.

[Georgeconna]

What is the makers name that Supplied them to you?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Further experimentation and learning 
 

My railtec transfers arived and while initially they looked like the wrong the colour, once applied to the actual model they turned out in a very accurate looking colour. Took 15 seconds (not like 15 minutes with the white ones!) to remove and we’re well able to to apply them with my rudimentary set up on a Dapol 5 plank wagon

 

Silverfox have told me the green they used on my C class and my AEC railcar set which is currently in the post uses Railmatch 307 BR Early Multiple Unit Green. Upon comparing eau de nil to this green, I may as well match it 

 

hastily photoshopped the snail onto C212. You can see how EDN compares to silverfox transfers

[popeye]

They do look pretty light and a good match.

They would look good on a coach. 

[Westcorkrailway]

Another question that I need to ask, what to the numbers on the coaches represent? For instance this CBSCR coach has all 3’s but some have 2’s or 1’s, some are mixed and some even seem to have no number at all.