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A class liveries.

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Trying to decide which IRM unrebuilt A class to order as raised some questions regarding what liveries they wore and when in the sixties. Specifically when was the black and tan with the high waist band introduced and did many of the class receive it and how long did it last before the all black livery was introduced. Also which green livery was more common, the light or darker green with the white band and how long did this livery last and were some repainted black not ever receiving black and tan with the high waist band before being rebuilt. Thanks.

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3 hours ago, patrick said:

Trying to decide which IRM unrebuilt A class to order as raised some questions regarding what liveries they wore and when in the sixties. Specifically when was the black and tan with the high waist band introduced and did many of the class receive it and how long did it last before the all black livery was introduced. Also which green livery was more common, the light or darker green with the white band and how long did this livery last and were some repainted black not ever receiving black and tan with the high waist band before being rebuilt. Thanks.

 

Hi Patrick,

The pre-rebuild Black & Tan livery lived alongside the all-over black livery. Some locos got B&T, most got black, and a small number got black with the yellow nose panels.

As for the green livery - the lighter shade was by far the most common. The dark green livery on A46 was most likely unique, although there are rumblings another loco may have received the same shade for a short period - it's the same shade of green that was applied to the 800s in the Flying Snail era. Some locos with the lighter green livery also received an eau-de-nil waistband (a variation we may produce in the future if there is demand).

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As far as I know, only A46 got the dark green, but one "C" (231) had it too for a short while. No B101 ever did - they were all silver, then light green, then black or black'n'tan.

A great time for variety.

In, say, 1965, it was possible to see all of the following, alongside each other.

A46 in dark green (if it still had it!)

Light green with waistline

Light green without waistline

Black

Black and tan (full height tan)

Black with yellow panels.

- five liveries plus the A46 one.

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16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

As far as I know, only A46 got the dark green, but one "C" (231) had it too for a short while. No B101 ever did - they were all silver, then light green, then black or black'n'tan.

A great time for variety.

In, say, 1965, it was possible to see all of the following, alongside each other.

A46 in dark green (if it still had it!)

Light green with waistline

Light green without waistline

Black

Black and tan (full height tan)

Black with yellow panels.

- five liveries plus the A46 one.

We know that A46 had been repainted by 1967, thanks to this J. P. O'Dea image (via the NLI's Flickr account). There's also another A Class loco in the frame (possibly A22), which is wearing the pre-rebuild B&T livery.

Cargo trains, Limerick City, Co. Limerick.

 

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4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

As far as I know, only A46 got the dark green, but one "C" (231) had it too for a short while. No B101 ever did - they were all silver, then light green, then black or black'n'tan.

A great time for variety.

In, say, 1965, it was possible to see all of the following, alongside each other.

A46 in dark green (if it still had it!)

Light green with waistline

Light green without waistline

Black

Black and tan (full height tan)

Black with yellow panels.

- five liveries plus the A46 one.

So the following IRM locos all fit the bill for 1965?

A12 (Black with Yellow)

A15 (Black and tan)

A42 (Light green)

A46 (Dark green)

A55 (Black)

Would they have been running alongside the grey 121's and the black and tan 121's at the same time?

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5 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So the following IRM locos all fit the bill for 1965?

A12 (Black with Yellow)

A15 (Black and tan)

A42 (Light green)

A46 (Dark green)

A55 (Black)

Would they have been running alongside the grey 121's and the black and tan 121's at the same time?

Yes, absolutely: as well as -

C classes in black, black with yellow ends, black and full tan, and green both with and without lighter green waistlines

B101 in black, green with and without waistlines, black and full tan, and a livery unique to the class of black and tan but white bits only on the ends

G class black and black’n’tan 

E class black and black’n’tan 

B141 both with and without CIE roundels on them.

Carriages were still a mix, with perhaps a fifth still in green.

So, altogether a considerable mixture.

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8 hours ago, patrick said:

Great information here! One more question, how long did the green livery survive? 

The first green-liveried diesels seem to be about 1958, having been silver earlier*. Carriages were obviously already lighter green from 1955, darker shade from 1945-55.

They started repainting into black’n’tan in late 1962, but it would be maybe 18 months before green was in the minority.

Last examples of locos STILL green, that I’m aware of, is about 1966, and carriages 1967.

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I offer the following from Irish Railfans' News, August 1969. 

"The A class diesel loco was introduced to this country in 1955. The first arrivals entered service in a silver livery but there have been many changes since. The following article deals with this specialised but interesting aspect of locomotive development.
The silver livery of the first As was offset by green numerals at each end and about half-way along each side, by a green CIÉ “snail” emblem on each side, and by the red buffer beams. As the years passed the livery became more and more dishevelled until by 1958 all (except A16 and A19 which were repainted in 1957) were grubby, to say the least. A change was made then: in May 1958 A46 appeared in a livery of dark green with a light green waistband and numerals. The buffer beams remained red. About the same time A36 appeared in a lighter green without the waistband but with numerals and buffer beams similar to A46. In time A locos 10, 11, 15, 24, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 and 60 came out of the shops in the “A46 livery”; this was during 1958-59.
Early in 1960 the overall light green livery, as on A36, began appearing on a wide scale. Late in that year A46 itself succumbed and came out sans waistband in the lighter green. The preference for the lighter green livery continued until mid-1961 although it should be noted that no other loco made the transition from the dark green to the light green livery. Thus in 1961 the A class locos bore two green liveries while the original silver livery (in a really poor state) was still to be found. There was a dramatic change in September 1961, when A6 appeared in a livery of black, golden brown and white. The white consisted of a band around the loco, a little below roof height, which dipped to a point at either end over the ridge between the cab windows. Below this was a wide layer of black which likewise came down in a point, this time below the cab windows and immediately below the point of the white band. The rest of the bodywork was brown, and the buffer beams were the familiar red. The numbers were in white on each end only. This livery spread gradually during 1962-3, though after the first few locos the black band was made narrower. To confuse the picture, however, A16 appeared early in 1962 resplendent in the original silver livery! Though the “black and tan” livery (as it was very quickly dubbed) was applied to A locos: 1-3, 5-8, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-24, 27, 31, 36, 37, 39, 40, 47, 48, 50, 52, 56 and 58, there were still some locos running at this time in the old silver colours. The latter were by now exceedingly worn and some numbers were barely visible. Then early in 1964 A30 appeared completely black in colour, the only relief being a white band above cab window level at each end; this rose to a point in the centre, between the windows. There were white numerals at each end and midway along the sides; the buffer beams were orange. This did not last long - only 2 other locos were so treated, A49 and A55 - but was replaced by a slightly-modified version in which the buffer beams reverted to red, and the centrallyplaced side numerals were replaced by two separate smaller numbers on the sides: one at each end, just above the bogie and behind the cab door.
The modified black and white livery remained unchallenged until mid-1968 and almost all the class were painted in it. There were exceptions, of course: As 1, 15, 22, 37 and 52 remained black and tan, the damaged A54 was still dark green, while A16, following its efforts in the filming of “Darling Lili”, was in a rather extraordinary livery which was mainly black with a stretch of black and tan at either end. By this time also, A58R and A59R had appeared in black and tan.
In June 1968 A52 appeared in a variant on the all black livery. It had a yellow patch covering each end from just below the cab windows down to the buffer beam, the yellow area being the full width of the loco. The numbers at each end were in black. The livery was not adopted for A15, which was since repainted in black and white, without the yellow ends. The current position is thus: As 22, 37, 58R, 59R: black and tan; As 4, 12, 13, 20, 24,31, 34, 50, 52, 55: black and white with yellow ends. All others are black and white.
Just what livery (if any!) will appear next is anybody’s guess. Even without a new version there has been a varied enough series so far".

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Thanks to everyone who responded here, all my questions were answered. My reason for asking is A plan to aquire enough appropriate stock to run a mid sixties operating session on the South Waterford Line which will allow me to run a few green coaches and a silver tin van. A grey and a black and tan 121 and a MM 141 (without the CIE roundal) are already at hand and a black A class is on order so a light green A class will join them. Unfortunatly the yellow panels came after the green coaches dissapeared. Now if only someone would produce a nice 101 class Sulzer I may be able to put off completing that SSM kit which has lived in a drawer for years!

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2 hours ago, BSGSV said:

I offer the following from Irish Railfans' News, August 1969. 

"The A class diesel loco was introduced to this country in 1955. The first arrivals entered service in a silver livery but there have been many changes since. The following article deals with this specialised but interesting aspect of locomotive development.
The silver livery of the first As was offset by green numerals at each end and about half-way along each side, by a green CIÉ “snail” emblem on each side, and by the red buffer beams. As the years passed the livery became more and more dishevelled until by 1958 all (except A16 and A19 which were repainted in 1957) were grubby, to say the least. A change was made then: in May 1958 A46 appeared in a livery of dark green with a light green waistband and numerals. The buffer beams remained red. About the same time A36 appeared in a lighter green without the waistband but with numerals and buffer beams similar to A46. In time A locos 10, 11, 15, 24, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 and 60 came out of the shops in the “A46 livery”; this was during 1958-59.
Early in 1960 the overall light green livery, as on A36, began appearing on a wide scale. Late in that year A46 itself succumbed and came out sans waistband in the lighter green. The preference for the lighter green livery continued until mid-1961 although it should be noted that no other loco made the transition from the dark green to the light green livery. Thus in 1961 the A class locos bore two green liveries while the original silver livery (in a really poor state) was still to be found. There was a dramatic change in September 1961, when A6 appeared in a livery of black, golden brown and white. The white consisted of a band around the loco, a little below roof height, which dipped to a point at either end over the ridge between the cab windows. Below this was a wide layer of black which likewise came down in a point, this time below the cab windows and immediately below the point of the white band. The rest of the bodywork was brown, and the buffer beams were the familiar red. The numbers were in white on each end only. This livery spread gradually during 1962-3, though after the first few locos the black band was made narrower. To confuse the picture, however, A16 appeared early in 1962 resplendent in the original silver livery! Though the “black and tan” livery (as it was very quickly dubbed) was applied to A locos: 1-3, 5-8, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-24, 27, 31, 36, 37, 39, 40, 47, 48, 50, 52, 56 and 58, there were still some locos running at this time in the old silver colours. The latter were by now exceedingly worn and some numbers were barely visible. Then early in 1964 A30 appeared completely black in colour, the only relief being a white band above cab window level at each end; this rose to a point in the centre, between the windows. There were white numerals at each end and midway along the sides; the buffer beams were orange. This did not last long - only 2 other locos were so treated, A49 and A55 - but was replaced by a slightly-modified version in which the buffer beams reverted to red, and the centrallyplaced side numerals were replaced by two separate smaller numbers on the sides: one at each end, just above the bogie and behind the cab door.
The modified black and white livery remained unchallenged until mid-1968 and almost all the class were painted in it. There were exceptions, of course: As 1, 15, 22, 37 and 52 remained black and tan, the damaged A54 was still dark green, while A16, following its efforts in the filming of “Darling Lili”, was in a rather extraordinary livery which was mainly black with a stretch of black and tan at either end. By this time also, A58R and A59R had appeared in black and tan.
In June 1968 A52 appeared in a variant on the all black livery. It had a yellow patch covering each end from just below the cab windows down to the buffer beam, the yellow area being the full width of the loco. The numbers at each end were in black. The livery was not adopted for A15, which was since repainted in black and white, without the yellow ends. The current position is thus: As 22, 37, 58R, 59R: black and tan; As 4, 12, 13, 20, 24,31, 34, 50, 52, 55: black and white with yellow ends. All others are black and white.
Just what livery (if any!) will appear next is anybody’s guess. Even without a new version there has been a varied enough series so far".

I have that copy of IRN but have been quite skeptical of the assertion that a number of locos were turned out in the same dark green livery as A46. As it was written a few years later, and as reference photos were most likely to have been black & white, I think there's a possibility that the writer misremembered or was mislead by the quality of some images and that they were actually looking at locos in the lighter green livery with waistband (with added coatings of dirt and Crossley engine oil)? There's a B&W photo in the George Mahon collection on the IRRS Flickr archive (link here for those who are members) which shows A11 - one of the locos supposedly turned out in dark green - in 1960, wearing a lined green livery. It's impossible to say for certain, of course, but the paint appears 'lighter' than the shade used on the 800s, which appears much darker in B&W images taken around the same time...

Happy to be proven wrong, though!

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4 hours ago, Garfield said:

I have that copy of IRN but have been quite skeptical of the assertion that a number of locos were turned out in the same dark green livery as A46. As it was written a few years later, and as reference photos were most likely to have been black & white, I think there's a possibility that the writer misremembered or was mislead by the quality of some images and that they were actually looking at locos in the lighter green livery with waistband (with added coatings of dirt and Crossley engine oil)? There's a B&W photo in the George Mahon collection on the IRRS Flickr archive (link here for those who are members) which shows A11 - one of the locos supposedly turned out in dark green - in 1960, wearing a lined green livery. It's impossible to say for certain, of course, but the paint appears 'lighter' than the shade used on the 800s, which appears much darker in B&W images taken around the same time...

Happy to be proven wrong, though!

I would very much echo that statement.

In support of the idea is the fact that those who wrote the IRN were very thorough in their research, and any errors I have ever been made aware of are trivial indeed. Moreover, the writers have mentioned specific locos; not generally the stuff of those who haven't done their homework.

However, other sources have stated that only one "A" (and one "C") were ever darker green, though I have ALSO heard in the past "A46 and possibly another". I can be sure, though, that no photographs I have ever seen, other than A46, show any loco of the class in dark green - certainly one in five of them seem questionable. Again, I would suggest that Garfield's idea - above - that the writers may have been relying too much on black and white photos might be closer to the point.

As for the statement of a late member in silver - while obviously one cannot state categorically that it was not true - at the very least surprises me; I would have thought that painting one like that just as the black was starting would be well known and documented.

As Garfield suggests, further information to confirm or deny this report would be of great interest.

While I'd be sceptical, at least to a point, it would not be the first time that a livery quirk had gone largely unrecorded, like the C & L tank which just before the GSR took over, was painted lined black by the C & L, only to be covered in grey shortly afterwards.

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Well, neither Garfield nor myself are old enough to have been there at the time, so we are relying on sources. In fairness to JHB, he would have been a little young too I think, for such detailed record taking! Barry Carse's book also mentions the two greens, and he also, like JHB, would have a keen observer in a father who would have been about at the time. Barry also mentions that A46 was the only one to migrate from dark to light green - a  statement I have seen elsewhere, and hardly something to make special mention of if there were not more than one dark green loco that could be repainted light green in the first place. C231 and C234 are both stated to have been delivered in (dark) green, rather than silver.

I would suspect the IRN article was based on notes taken at the time in 1958-62 or so, and I would have thought that howlers would have been weeded out by the editorial team, if they didn't write it themselves in the first place. Anyway, a good excuse for re-reading!

I guess the upside is that if you want multiple dark green A's running about on your layout, nobody can really tell you categorically you're wrong! Mind, this is just the colour discussion. What about detail differences like which ones in green still had sandboxes? One for another day, I think.

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6 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Well, neither Garfield nor myself are old enough to have been there at the time, so we are relying on sources. In fairness to JHB, he would have been a little young too I think, for such detailed record taking! Barry Carse's book also mentions the two greens, and he also, like JHB, would have a keen observer in a father who would have been about at the time. Barry also mentions that A46 was the only one to migrate from dark to light green - a  statement I have seen elsewhere, and hardly something to make special mention of if there were not more than one dark green loco that could be repainted light green in the first place. C231 and C234 are both stated to have been delivered in (dark) green, rather than silver.

I would suspect the IRN article was based on notes taken at the time in 1958-62 or so, and I would have thought that howlers would have been weeded out by the editorial team, if they didn't write it themselves in the first place. Anyway, a good excuse for re-reading!

I guess the upside is that if you want multiple dark green A's running about on your layout, nobody can really tell you categorically you're wrong! Mind, this is just the colour discussion. What about detail differences like which ones in green still had sandboxes? One for another day, I think.

Indeed - very good points all round.

Yes, my own personal memories of the CIE green era are actually more bus than rail related; in particular the old no. 10 route! However, I do have some memories of green vehicles on rails, a horsebox being one, and a row of green laminates behind a brand-new 141 being another - but as you suggest not remotely close to being of any use whatsoever to answer this above issue. 

As it happens, I'll be on the phone tonight to Barry (for a LONG time) in connection with our next joint project and I will ask him where he got HIS info from; he tends to often consult not just his own extremely copious and detailed notes, but his father's, the late Sam Carse. Sam himself took a lot of pics too, though not on the scale of Barry, and all black and white - and with a heavy emphasis of his beloved CDRJC. But that's another story.

Of the IRN team, I suspect that the idea of a long list of dark green "A"s might have originated with the late David Seymour, a keen observer of that TYPE of thing. Brendan Pender was another. The only person now alive of these folks is the ever-youthful Clifton Flewitt. I might give him a buzz and see what he has to say.

But - Barry's diesel book and the info in it certainly concurs with what my own understanding would have been.

As an aside: who, here, would also still have memories of the green livery on trains, or of CIE steam? I can think of two regulars here, but no more........

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You should “interview” him about everything pre-1965 that he remembers and write it down. I only realise now the things I DIDNT ask jhbSenior, who recalled the DSER, GSWR and formation of the GSR, as well as having travelled over virtually every railway line in the country; plus on the occasions I spoke to them over the years, the late Billy Lohan of Tuam, and of course Bob Clements.

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9 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Well, neither Garfield nor myself are old enough to have been there at the time, so we are relying on sources. In fairness to JHB, he would have been a little young too I think, for such detailed record taking! Barry Carse's book also mentions the two greens, and he also, like JHB, would have a keen observer in a father who would have been about at the time. Barry also mentions that A46 was the only one to migrate from dark to light green - a  statement I have seen elsewhere, and hardly something to make special mention of if there were not more than one dark green loco that could be repainted light green in the first place. C231 and C234 are both stated to have been delivered in (dark) green, rather than silver.

I would suspect the IRN article was based on notes taken at the time in 1958-62 or so, and I would have thought that howlers would have been weeded out by the editorial team, if they didn't write it themselves in the first place. Anyway, a good excuse for re-reading!

I guess the upside is that if you want multiple dark green A's running about on your layout, nobody can really tell you categorically you're wrong! Mind, this is just the colour discussion. What about detail differences like which ones in green still had sandboxes? One for another day, I think.

I've come across photos of black locos with sandboxes... albeit not on all bogies.

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4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

As an aside: who, here, would also still have memories of the green livery on trains, or of CIE steam? I can think of two regulars here, but no more........

I came into the world in 1950 so I remember CIE steam and being on the footplate of a shunter at the Midland Depot at Nth Wall, - looking into the firebox made an impression . I also remember both the silver and green liveries and listening to an uncle of mine who was home on a visit from England expressing disgust at the change of livery to "Black & Tan" given the historical context of those colours. I had no real interest in railways and accordingly my memory on quite a lot is a bit vague. But I do remember that blazing embankments were a common sight in summer in the age of steam.  I have a vivid memory of enormous crowds bound for Bray on the southbound platform at Tara St on summer Sunday afternoons (to the point it's a wonder they didn't spill onto the tracks).  I was also fascinated by the coaches particularly very aged ones that quaintly had framed pictures on the compartment walls over the seats.

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Superb memories, Ironroad. Those pics in carriages would have been old GSWR bogies, and the pics were actually originally from the Lawrence collection.

I, too, recall a Kildare signalman commenting to my father in disgust, as we watched a train pass from the cabin, and the last coach of which was in the new livery "Ye'd think we'd seen the last of the $%^& black'n'tans...."

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5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Those pics in carriages would have been old GSWR bogies, and the pics were actually originally from the Lawrence collection.

Thank you  that's something I did not know, I just remember them as mainly landscapes in monochrome (brown toned), but those carriages even then seemed like they were from another time. 

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5 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Thank you  that's something I did not know, I just remember them as mainly landscapes in monochrome (brown toned), but those carriages even then seemed like they were from another time. 

They were! The particular ones you mention were all built in the 1902-1915 period....they had long lives! I've a notion there was at least one old relic from the late 1890s still kicking about then.

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