Philip's Workbench

[flange lubricator]

23 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I would definitely try them if but I've read on RMweb that they are difficult to get from Shawplan. I asked previously in the questions section about them in fact but I think the question got lost in there. I was curious how one glazes them as there is no lazerglaze to suit the etches. Do you cut out acetate sheet and then glue it to the inside of the frame and then glue the lot to the coach side or how do they work in practice? The detail on them is cracking. Correct me if I'm wrong but they only go up to the 2b model. The mk2c coaches had those square AC toilet windows from the 2d's. The etch doesn't include those toilet windows, right?

Yes there is no laserglaze for them you would have to cut acetate sheet to fit and  fitting the sliders can be tricky . They are only for Mk2Z A B , no MK2C , There is MK2D E F available , but if your looking for the toilet windows for Mk2c get some of the Mk2 z,a,b etches and a MK3 sleeper set that would give you enough frames to do a couple of Mk 2 C coaches . I notice on his site the EEED4007 is now Mk2z-c he maybe they are  including the Mk2c toilet windows now  ?. Perhaps email Brian at Shawplan I have found him to be very heplful in the past ,

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by flange lubricator

[murphaph]

Great you are correct, it now says z-c so I guess the AC toilets are included. I will send him an email. Am I correct in my assumption about the assembly? cut out acetate sheet and glue to inside of frame then glue the lot to coach side? Are there instructions with the etch at all?

Do they fit exactly over the Lima window frames or do these need to be sanded down? ( I get that the window bars themselves need to be cut out at least) 

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Recutting on lazer - I have left it to Dave but he can cut up to 0.5 .

I have several packs of the non air con window frames somewhere  and IIRC I did not use them as the Lima window was underscale - but this was a few years ago and I could well be wrong - but certainly look the part - I planned to fit ferro rocher clear plastic into the hole and the use varnish to fix the stainless frame on last once body painted and glazed . Depending on vehicle they could be sprayed black and then varnished on to the clear plastic.   - Looks like I will have to go digging in the gloat mine/ spoil tips and revisit. 

Robert    

[flange lubricator]

38 minutes ago, murphaph said:

 

Do they fit exactly over the Lima window frames or do these need to be sanded down? ( I get that the window bars themselves need to be cut out at least) 

No instructions I’m afraid. But they fit exactly over the Lima window. 

You could paint them first and stick the  cut acetate sheet to and then to the coach provided the acetate sheet is very thin , otherwise you would have to fit int the frame from the inside. The other thing you can do is leave some of the sliders open to add authenticity a cut the glazing accordingly . 

Note the frame is on lt sitting loose on the window I would remove the bars from the inside of the frames on the coach prior to fitting.

Edited June 8, 2021 by flange lubricator

[murphaph]

Yeah I think I will give them a try at least, perhaps one on or two "extra special" coaches. They are really nice. I have a load of flushglaze to use up though so I won't be abandoning it completely lol. I wanted to try dying the PVA glue black when I fit the next batch. I think it might help a bit with the look of the flushglaze, which to be fair from 2 feet away is perfectly acceptable for layout use.

59 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Hi Recutting on lazer - I have left it to Dave but he can cut up to 0.5 .

I have several packs of the non air con window frames somewhere  and IIRC I did not use them as the Lima window was underscale - but this was a few years ago and I could well be wrong - but certainly look the part - I planned to fit ferro rocher clear plastic into the hole and the use varnish to fix the stainless frame on last once body painted and glazed . Depending on vehicle they could be sprayed black and then varnished on to the clear plastic.   - Looks like I will have to go digging in the gloat mine/ spoil tips and revisit. 

Robert    

Are you talking about packs of the Shawplan etches as well Robert?

[flange lubricator]

The other advantage of the Extreme etchings window frame is if your doing the IR livery the window frames were silver this was changed to black when they got the IE livery .

[flange lubricator]

Here’s a couple of mine Mk2’s 4113 Mk2a FK converted from a Bachmann Mk2a fk , MK2c FO converted from a Hornby Mk2e SO using a Brass overlay and a Dutch EGV body from DC  Kits and bogies from silver fox . Bit of a hotchpotch of coaches . 

[murphaph]

2 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

The other advantage of the Extreme etchings window frame is if your doing the IR livery the window frames were silver this was changed to black when they got the IE livery .

I thought that was the case too but on page 40 of Michael McMahon's Irish Railway Rambler there's a pic of a freshly painted 4104 getting it's IR vinyl decals in Inchicore in 1990 and the window frames are definitely painted completely black. I wonder was this a one off but it serves as "evidence" for me that black window frames in an IR livery happened lol.

1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

Here’s a couple of mine Mk2’s 4113 Mk2a FK converted from a Bachmann Mk2a fk , MK2c FO converted from a Hornby Mk2e SO using a Brass overlay and a Dutch EGV body from DC  Kits and bogies from silver fox . Bit of a hotchpotch of coaches . 

Lovely job. I have the two Bachmann mk2a's in a box as well waiting for the time to block up that door and respray. Did you make the mk2d roof hatch yourself or buy the one from Southern Pride?

[flange lubricator]

20 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I thought that was the case too but on page 40 of Michael McMahon's Irish Railway Rambler there's a pic of a freshly painted 4104 getting it's IR vinyl decals in Inchicore in 1990 and the window frames are definitely painted completely black. I wonder was this a one off but it serves as "evidence" for me that black window frames in an IR livery happened lol.

Lovely job. I have the two Bachmann mk2a's in a box as well waiting for the time to block up that door and respray. Did you make the mk2d roof hatch yourself or buy the one from Southern Pride?

In the main when the Mk2a b c coaches were introduced the window frames were in silver , no doubt some appeared with black frames in IR livery as they went for repaints . The MK2c is coverted from a Mk2e so roof hatches were on them the Ro Vac vents came from shapeways .

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by flange lubricator

[murphaph]

Thx for the shapeways tip. I was wondering where to pick up the roe vac vents.

[murphaph]

I'm kind of jumping between things but here's the latest on my Lima mk2b -> mk2c conversion "proof of concept" lol. The concept I'm trying to prove is whether or not I have the skills rather than whether or not the conversion is possible, which it surely is 

After a lot of filling and sanding I ended up cutting the right hand toilet window back out and binning it. It just looked crap really. I then installed the cut n shut window I'd made, taking more time not to botch the filler part. In fact I did not use filler, having read that normal super glue applied to cracks can act as a good filler in such situations I tried that with more success this time. I still had to sand a good bit but it came ok this time. As it was a cut n shut I had to fabricate my own vent out of plasticard which was my first time doing anything like that.

The left hand window was salvageable using super glue to fill the remaining gaps.

I also ordered 40 thou evergreen scenics half round stock to make up the door bump stops while I was at it and then undercoated the lot. 

The mk2e flushglaze fits even worse than the mk2b stuff at least the toilet windows so quite a lot has to be filed out of those toilet windows to allow a loose fit.

[flange lubricator]

Looks great , glad you added the door bumpers , they are so distinctively Mk2 but have been omitted by nearly all manufacturers on Mk2 ROR versions .

[murphaph]

It's really odd that they tend to leave them off. The Lima mk2e is a good deal better than their mk2b but they still didn't add the bumpers despite clearly updating the tooling in that area (if not the whole coach).

A question for the mk2b experts: I know that the FK's had 14 equally spaced scalloped dome vents in a straight line but does anyone have rough dimensions for where they should begin, ie how far in from the end of the coach? I'd really like to buy "the" mk2 book but they are like €100 or something.

[Galteemore]

You’ve proved you can do it! Great effort. Serious books are worth it as they can actually prevent serious errors. My library and stock costs are probably on a par! Seriously, if you are seeking to model a prototype faithfully, someone else’s scholarship is worth buying in. 

[murphaph]

ok but €700 is a bit much lol:

https://www.amazon.com/British-Rail-Mark-Coaches-InterCity/dp/1898432481

[Irishswissernie]

Bit cheaper.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30923427131&cm_sp=Searchmod-_-NullResults-_-BDP

[murphaph]

Much appreciated but I appear to have stumbled across the info I need for now:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CS/Book_No_200_EK_web.pdf

The dimensions are absent but it's clear to see what the vents line up with and as long as I am consistent in my own fleet that's all that matters.

While poking about in there I realised that my mk2d style AC windows are the wrong shape, d'oh!

They weren't square in reality on the mk2c. I had no perfectly side on pics and always assumed they had used the square AC window that became standard in the subsequent mk2 models. This was an incorrect assumption it seems. The window was in fact slightly but noticeably rectangular and unfortunately it was shorter than the mk2b rectangular windows, so just cutting the glazing bars out won't be enough. I knew something wasn't adding up but I was blaming inaccuracies in the Lima model.

I will have to both cut out the glazing bars and then cut out the upper half of the toilet windows, file a bit off and then put back in, replacing the missing material above with plasticard as I did before. There's no point in making cut n shut windows from the mk2e coach now. It's just more work as there's more filling and sanding that way. Ah well, you live and learn

[flange lubricator]

6 hours ago, murphaph said:

It's really odd that they tend to leave them off. The Lima mk2e is a good deal better than their mk2b but they still didn't add the bumpers despite clearly updating the tooling in that area (if not the whole coach).

A question for the mk2b experts: I know that the FK's had 14 equally spaced scalloped dome vents in a straight line but does anyone have rough dimensions for where they should begin, ie how far in from the end of the coach? I'd really like to buy "the" mk2 book but they are like €100 or something.

The door bump stops on the CIE/IR coaches were always painted black so were more noticeable than on the BR coaches while  I am certainly no expert  but if you use the Bachmann Mk2a FK as a guide for roof vents I think they would be the same .

Edited June 12, 2021 by flange lubricator

[murphaph]

4 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

The door bump stops on the CIE/IR coaches were always painted black so were more noticeable than on the BR coaches while  I am certainly no expert  but if you use the Bachmann Mk2a FK as a guide for roof vents I think they would be the same .

Actually that's the best idea to use the Bachmann as a template as even if it's slightly wrong it'll be left as is and it's really more important that the Lima conversions match up rather than anything else.

[flange lubricator]

14 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Actually that's the best idea to use the Bachmann as a template as even if it's slightly wrong it'll be left as is and it's really more important that the Lima conversions match up rather than anything else.

My Bachmann MK2A FK has 14 roof vents and looking at any pictures of MK2B FK's they also have 14 roof vents so pretty much the same .

 

 

[murphaph]

I've started preparing the next coach to be a mk2c with the oblong sealed toilet windows. I believe most of the IR ones were of this type. 

The plan is to cut out the glazing bars and vent, then cut the upper third of the frame out before filing the sides down and refitting, thus producing a shorter but still oblong window where the lower edge of the top of the frame lines up with the upper edge of the door droplight.

The gap at the top being filled with plasticard (a little proud, so I can file it flush with top edge when it's all set)

 

[murphaph]

So I've fired up my airbrush for the first time ever. What can I say....I need more practice but I'm hopeful this is the way to go.

Having read a bit online beforehand I knew I wanted to go straight to a double action brush and that I wanted to use acrylics, despite them being trickier according to some accounts I've read.

Thankfully I seem to have avoided most all of the technical problems that seem to beset many people trying acrylics, especially Vallejo ones. I am using the air range but I still have to thin it.

The end result of the first colour spray is just ok and I'm sure I'll eventually repaint it. I'm going to proceed though so I get practice with all the required colours. Practice makes perfect and all that 

[Dempsey]

Well done, great finish bud

[KMCE]

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

I am using the air range but I still have to thin it.

Philip,

I use the Valejo air range (great paint BTW) and always thin the paint - using straight from the bottle in my experience will not end well.  The other thing to note is air pressure - I normally work with 20 -25 psi max with an absolute minimum paint delivery rate.  It takes time to paint as the amount of paint is minimal, but you have much more control over the painting proces.  This also works well for weathering once painting is complete.

Just my experience so use as necesary!

Ken

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by KMCE

[David Holman]

Good for you, Phil. I have an airbrush and compressor, but have never used them enough to master the technique, not least because of what I can get away with using automotive rattle cans.

[murphaph]

Thx a lot chaps.

Ken, funnily enough I arrived at around 20psi as a comfortable level. I did find myself getting a bit impatient with the small amount of paint coming out.

 

 

[murphaph]

10 hours ago, David Holman said:

Good for you, Phil. I have an airbrush and compressor, but have never used them enough to master the technique, not least because of what I can get away with using automotive rattle cans.

Thx David. I tried them in the thread above and the results are really quite good I think and there is no clean up but they are expensive over time and I end up wasting most of the paint in overspray as if I get anywhere close to the model the paint will run (maybe my technique is just poor and with practice I could have less waste), even with the low pressure caps I fitted. I was also going to have a guilty conscience about all those empty rattle cans when I already had a workshop compressor sitting there. It's a decent enough 50L model so I can prime the air tank then shut the compressor off so it isn't running all the time and when primed up to 10bar I can spray for quite a while before it drops below 20psi. I "invested" in a cheap digital manometer so I can hopefully reproduce the pressure accurately. I have to say it was pretty cool to be able to just barely pull the trigger back and paint into corners with the airbrush nozzle just a few mm away from the surface. You can't see anything coming out but the surface starts to slowly change colour. It's going to be like when I first learned to drive a digger, scooping the bucket and moving the arm at the same time to create a smooth transition. Eventually muscle memory takes over I guess and the finger just moves itself, I hope!

I can see myself combining the two. I will definitely use rattle cans for the undercoat at least. George told me how he sprays everything but the black window band with rattle cans. The black being done with the airbrush. I think this may be a happy compromise as the black is where the bulk of the detail is and around the windows one wants to avoid too much paint build up as fitting the flushglaze can be problematic as is. Maybe I'll try this hybrid approach on the next one, though I'm keen to keep practicing with the airbrush for now. I'm still very much finding my feet. 

 

 

[murphaph]

So the big airbrush experiment has ended and I declare it a success lol. The first unit would actually be ok in a layout I reckon. There's a bit of wonky masking around the vent which in hindsight shouldn't be so chunky, but rather flush with the body. The door bumpers are in the right place relative to the door hinges I swear but sadly something is off on the model so they almost touch the lower tippex stripe. In reality there was a few inches between them. I masked off the bumpers and the door stops along with the window band.

The overall result is much finer than with the rattle cans (at least in my hands). Much more detail is preserved with the airbrush.

 

[popeye]

Looks really neat, for your first go with the air brush it turned out well.

I'm doing some myself but I will just use the rattle cans for convenience and see how it goes.

[murphaph]

Thx popeye. Having seen your other work I'm sure they'll be masterpieces too. For me the airbrush is kind of insurance against my clumsiness. I can accidentally bring it too close or spray "too much" and because so little is coming out to begin with it's not a problem.

I'm thinking I will use the remainder of my rattle can paint by decanting it into the airbrush and spraying it that way.

 

[Galteemore]

The keys to good rattle can painting - when it’s the only option - are to warm the can - and the subject if metal. Shake the can for at least two minutes and never start or stop the spray on the model - press the button and then move the can across in light sweeps. Some day I will ask my son if I may use his airbrush….

[DoctorPan]

Yeah I usually stick my rattle cans in a saucepan of warm water for a couple of minutes before shaking the bejayus of them and spraying. Never had any spalts or peels since using that prep technique. 

[murphaph]

Ah yes, I did read about putting the can in a bath of warm water prior to use. I might try them again using that technique. My biggest problem is the sheer amount of paint I needed to get a fine coat on. I had to keep so much distance that 90% of the paint was going over or under the model. I was using like a quarter of a 400ml can of black or orange whereas with the airbrush I used maybe 2ml of black + thinner + flow improver. 

Anyway, I've ordered a second inexpensive airbrush so I can have them permanently fitted with the 0.2mm and the 0.5mm nozzles, rather than faffing around switching nozzles. The airbrush is only €28 so it's easier to do that and I've read in the reviews that several people have bought additional units to do just that. It has also been suggest to polish the needles of these cheaper airbrushes to improve the finish. Allegedly much of the cost of expensive airbrushes is in this step which you can do yourself with a drill and some very fine wire wool, though for the purposes of spraying coaches it's probably not necessary.

 

[murphaph]

A brutal close-up of the end reveals another reason why it's better to spray the orange before the black (apart from the fact that light before dark makes sense). In this order the masking around the ends is easier to get right as the door jamb moulding provides a natural barrier and the masking tape can be applied to the outside edges of it over the orange rather than masking over the irregular relief of the door hinges if masking the inside edges.

I will probably stop spraying the gangway doors on most of these coaches now as they will eventually end up close coupled in fixed rakes so only one coach per rake will actually be seen.

[popeye]

Do you put the corridor connector back on? and if so, that would cover the dayglo orange.