New to Irish Modelling and to 21mm Gauge

[MGWR110Bat]

Hello,

As of Yesterday I appear to have been thrust into the world of Irish railway modelling when my other half came home with this: 

 

M&GWR E Class 0-6-0T No.110 Bat in 4mm Scale, 21mm Gauge. We're not sure if she's a kitbash or scratchbuilt (The Studio kit is for the later condition), but she was reasonably priced and looks gorgeous. In due course we hope to have her finished in M&GWR Green (I considered inauthentic blue, but it's probably best to stick to the prototype!).

I've been wanting to model an Irish prototype for some time and was, admittedly, planning to do this with 16.5mm. But we are where we are and I'm both daunted and looking forward to the challenge of 21mm for someone who has yet to try building track or working with P4 standards generally. I haven't got a huge amount to report yet, work so far has mostly focused on getting Bat into a usable condition (She needed attention to the quartering on her wheels, adjustments to her gearing and needs some work on her pickups).

Initially I am hoping I may be able to regauge some 16.5mm stock to 21mm as a stop-gap until my modelling skills have caught up with this sudden dive into finescale modelling! I've identified a few RTR British locos which may have potential to be bashed into M&GWR and GNR(I) goods engines so this would be useful!

I suppose, then, this will start with some questions:
1.) Where would be a good place to start sourcing some suitable axles for 21mm Stock?

2.) Has anyone tried regauging 16.5mm stock to 21mm? What was required and how did you go about doing it?

3.) Any recommendations for sourcing further M&GWR and GNR(I) locos and rolling stock from the latter part of the 19th Century through to the 1920s?

4.) Unrelated to the M&GWR, but anyone tried converting a Hornby 4P tank into a UTA 'Jeep' in 21mm or is that a stretch too far?

Thank you all in advance!

- Dan

Edited November 29, 2022 by MGWR110Bat

[Mike 84C]

Welcome to the group Dan, I know all the answers to your questions are already on the group just have trawl! But I know others will point you in the right direction.

I use 16.5mm track as do many on this group Provincial Wagons and Studio Scale Minatures will get you started and New Irish Lines is worth every penny of its subscription.

Best Wishes Mick

[Galteemore]

Excellent. I built one in 7mm to 5’3 gauge and finished her in green.would love to see the pics - not showing here. 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Galteemore

[Killian Keane]

You wont be able to regauge 00 stock as if thats 21mm gauge it'll be to P4 standard, the flanges are much finer and the whole wheel and track standards are different (vastly superior) to 00

Edit; congratulations, very lucky find, much nicer condition than the SSM kit builds in my mind

Edited November 29, 2022 by Killian Keane

[MGWR110Bat]

3 minutes ago, Killian Keane said:

You wont be able to regauge 00 stock as if thats 21mm gauge it'll be to P4 standard, the flanges are much finer and the whole wheel and track standards are different (vastly superior) to 00

I am aware of this, but surely there is at least some potential if one utilises new wheelsets? People regauge 16.5mm to 18.82mm after all!

[J-Mo Arts]

I believe the P4 society or whoever makes P4 parts also make 21mm gauge wheelsets. 

 

I've seen Fowler 4Ps as jeeps in 00 gauge, not 21mm. I think you might be looking at a whole new chassis at that point given the cylinders/valve gear! 

[murrayec]

1 hour ago, MGWR110Bat said:

.........I suppose, then, this will start with some questions:

1.) Where would be a good place to start sourcing some suitable axles for 21mm Stock?

2.) Has anyone tried regauging 16.5mm stock to 21mm? What was required and how did you go about doing it?

3.) Any recommendations for sourcing further M&GWR and GNR(I) locos and rolling stock from the latter part of the 19th Century through to the 1920s?

4.) Unrelated to the M&GWR, but anyone tried converting a Hornby 4P tank into a UTA 'Jeep' in 21mm or is that a stretch too far?

Hi Dan

1.)  A few possibilities here;-

2.) That would depend on what stock you start with- some have wide enough W irons that allow 21mm and some don't, filing the inside of the irons may allow for 21mm if the stock has enough 'Meat' - others don't, so the irons could be cut off and re-glued to create space.

3.)Mayner and KMCE on this forum are producing some kits, have a look at posts in this link;-

4.) That's a lot of work for starting out, especially the chassis mods for 21mm - Worsley Works do a body scratch aid for the jeep but needs a lot of input from the builder!

Eoin

Edited November 29, 2022 by murrayec

[MGWR110Bat]

46 minutes ago, J-Mo Arts said:

I believe the P4 society or whoever makes P4 parts also make 21mm gauge wheelsets. 

That would figure - Time to get searching!

46 minutes ago, J-Mo Arts said:

I've seen Fowler 4Ps as jeeps in 00 gauge, not 21mm. I think you might be looking at a whole new chassis at that point given the cylinders/valve gear! 

I think that may be likely - Shelve that project for now methinks, or do it as a 16.5mm model.

[Galteemore]

A few people on here may chip in with other good advice - @murphaph @KMCEamongst others…

[Andy Cundick]

The loco is probably an SSM kit as it is in its original state,i  ha d to modify mine to its 1930s condition.As to the standards for wheels and tracks  i don't understand why people immediately assume 21mm gauge has to be to P4 standards ,i've been modelling using 21mm gauge to EM standards for last 40 years with no problems,  as for axles for the drivers i use 1/8" steel bar cut to length with the ends squared up with a file,its around an 12" long depending on the depth of the bossfor pin point wagon axles its 2mm steel rod put in a drill and the point ground on old bit of grinding or a file, 21mm w irons are avaliable from SSM and Priclkey Pear or you can just widen MJT ones coach bogies are eay just use the MJT  compenstated coach bogies.As for rolling stock the problem with regaugeing British stock is usually they are narrower best to start  off with perhaps a couple of MGW convertibles from SSM,its a fact of life that manufacturers seem on the hole to ignore the 100 years of Irish railway history .If you want a quickie loco conversion  then if you havn't done it before then a Jinty may be your best bet nice and simple though not very appropriate Hope this helps Andy. 

[MGWR110Bat]

19 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

The loco is probably an SSM kit as it is in its original state,i  ha d to modify mine to its 1930s condition.As to the standards for wheels and tracks  i don't understand why people immediately assume 21mm gauge has to be to P4 standards ,i've been modelling using 21mm gauge to EM standards for last 40 years with no problems,  as for axles for the drivers i use 1/8" steel bar cut to length with the ends squared up with a file,its around an 12" long depending on the depth of the bossfor pin point wagon axles its 2mm steel rod put in a drill and the point ground on old bit of grinding or a file, 21mm w irons are avaliable from SSM and Priclkey Pear or you can just widen MJT ones coach bogies are eay just use the MJT  compenstated coach bogies.As for rolling stock the problem with regaugeing British stock is usually they are narrower best to start  off with perhaps a couple of MGW convertibles from SSM,its a fact of life that manufacturers seem on the hole to ignore the 100 years of Irish railway history .If you want a quickie loco conversion  then if you havn't done it before then a Jinty may be your best bet nice and simple though not very appropriate Hope this helps Andy. 

Cheers Andy - Much appreciated. I did wonder whether it may be possible to model 21mm to EM standards, heretical though that may be to some people. Obviously the loco we have here has been made to P4 standards so we'll see what happens. I'm definitely planning to do a Jinty conversion of some sort as it's relatively cheap and gives me a starting point.

There are a few other 0-6-0s that I'm contemplating doing too - I don't know whether they are viable conversions in the eyes of people here, but I'm thinking about an M&GWR B from a Bachmann GCR J11 and a GNR A from a Bachmann SECR C.

I expect my approach to all of this may not be satisfactory to most other 21mm modellers, who clearly aspire to much higher standards than I do, but I want to give this a shot even if my first steps are a bit crude and lacking in finesse and accuracy.

My main aim at the moment is to try and get a couple of basic, not necessarily accurate, items of stock and pieces of track made so my partner has something to run with their new loco. Then I want to try and get a few more accurate bits done when time and money allow and eventually if I have the skills I can consider etched kits and scratchbuilding in brass.

[Andy Cundick]

The main thing is to have a go,as thats how you learn after all we all started at the same place.Andy.

[Galteemore]

Sounds like a good plan. Once you try 5’3 modelling it’s hard to go back ! Would be interested to see how you get on with the A class. I have long term plans to build one - as sold to the SLNC 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Galteemore

[KMCE]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

A few people on here may chip in with other good advice - @murphaph @KMCEamongst others…

Thanks @Galteemore, I suppose given my journey so far, I can provide some insights.....

MGWR110Bat, I model in 21mm and as it happens P4.  I agree with Andy regarding P4 vs EM - you do not have to jump straight to P4.  As noted P4 flanges and tolerances are much tighter which does take time to get right.

As to your model, I would hazard that it is a TMD kit originally released in 1981 which was the building blocks for the Studio Scale Model (SSM) version.  I built one of the TMD versions, but built it as 560 as used on the Tramore line - my area of interest is the DWWR / DSER / GSR.

 

To provide some additional information on your questions:

1.) Where would be a good place to start sourcing some suitable axles for 21mm Stock?

Either make your own as Andy suggested, or split the axle and sleeve with 2mm ID brass tube, or shop with Scalefour society shop (https://www.scalefour.org/stores/stores.html)

 

2.) Has anyone tried regauging 16.5mm stock to 21mm? What was required and how did you go about doing it?

I generally build my own locomotives and stock so don't have much experience.  I do know modifying steam locomotives is difficult as there is insufficient space in the splashers to allow the wheels move out. 

 

3.) Any recommendations for sourcing further M&GWR and GNR(I) locos and rolling stock from the latter part of the 19th Century through to the 1920s?

There is not much out there for MGWR - @Mayner does some models kits in brass, and @leslie10646 does quite a few kits for GNR.  My stock https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/forum/65-kmce-models/  is mainly DSER for now.

4.) Unrelated to the M&GWR, but anyone tried converting a Hornby 4P tank into a UTA 'Jeep' in 21mm or is that a stretch too far?

The Hornby 4P can be converted to a lookalike and others have done it.  As mentioned by others Worsly Works do some etches for the Jeep, but they are really scratch aids and need a lot of work to develop to a running model.  I am building one (now and again) and it has proved to be quite a task.

 

With regard to building track and points in 21mm, the traditional route was ply and rivet with the necessary gauges, again all available from Scalefour shop, however with improving technology, 3D printing is getting closer to being mainstream.  Straight track in any methodology is quite simple and straightforward, points take a little more effort.

I have been dabbling with the 3D printing route, but started with the ply and rivet method - 3D printed version is so much quicker!

This is a mix of ply and rivet and 3D printed - older finished track is ply & rivet, and obviously new point and headshunt is 3D printed.  One thing to bear in mind is that 21mm track needs quite a bit more space- points are longer than mass manufactured versions.

 

Top point is 21mm B6 point, while bottom is Peco short point for reference.

 

Hope this is of some assistance.  Overall 21mm is a challenge, but well worth the effort.

Good luck with your venture either way.

Ken

 

[David Holman]

Plenty of good advice here from people who KNOW.

 The key advice is you do NOT need to use P4 standards to do 21mm gauge. I've had the pleasure of helping operate Andy's Valentia Harbour and it all runs beautifully. My Fintonagh, albeit 7mm scale is 21mm gauge, but uses 00 wheels and track standards: 1mm flangeways in the points.

 On my wagons and coaches I replace the steel axles with 2mm brass wire, with the ends filed to a point to go in top hat bearings. Brass wire means the axles are not attracted to magnetic  uncouplers. Back to backs of around 19.3mm seems to work just fine.

[Mayner]

A lot depends on whether you want to get something up and running quickly using readily available models or you are more interested in model making (building models from scratch, kits or modifying rtr model

The quickest way to get started in 21mm gauge would be to work to EM standard using re-gauge Murphy Models GM diesels or IRM A Class and IRM bogie wagons, before attempting a kit or scratch building. 

Modelling the MGWR is going to be challenging and involve a lot of scratchbuilding as no suitable rtr models and very few kits are available. The SSM MGWR convertible wagon would be a good starting point for metal kit assembly, I have produced JM Design etched kits for the MGWR K Class 2-4-0 in late MGW condition, a MGWR Horsebox and a MGWR Fish/Meat Van. I would not recommend an etched loco to an inexperienced builder, it took me several years (trial and error) to acquire the skill, experience and tools to assemble a loco or coach kit to a reasonable standard and I am still learning.

Modifying a OO Gauge rtr loco like a Bachmann Pom-Pom or SECR C to 21mm gauge is going to be extremely challenging as there is likely to be insufficient running clearance between the coupling rods and loco body, clearance is tight even with brass kits designed for 21mm gauge such as the TMD/SSM Midland Tank or GNR S class.

Another constrict with 21mm gauge is that it can be challenging to fit a 21mm gauge layout in a restricted space as minimum radius curves are larger than in OO and points tend to be longer as shown in Kens comparison of a 21mm gauge B6 and Peco small radius point

Edited November 30, 2022 by Mayner

[murphaph]

I suspect the number of people doing 21mm in P4 is signifigantly smaller than the number doing it in 00 or EM standards. Personally the overscale flangeways and tyres of 00 do not bother me at all. It's only the 16.5mm track gauge that I find jarring, so I am happy to use the more forgiving standards and of course save money on wheels. I joined the Scalefour society mostly to get access to the stores. I am still a member as I like reading the journals but I think as time goes on, a 3d printer is going to replace all the track making tools they sell. I am glad I only bought one lot of copper clad sleepers because I will be either laser cutting mine out of ply or just fdm printing them all. The pointwork I will definitely be printing.

[BosKonay]

As a maybe indicative finger in the air, the number of deltics running around on our p4/em wheelsets is 0.8% of the run 

[David Holman]

Whisper it quietly, but it is significantly easier to do 5'3 in 7mm scale.

 There are several MGW kits available from Alphagraphix, including the E/J26, G2 and J19. All in etched brass, but a lot easier to build than in 4mm scale. Slater's do the broad gauge axles to go with their wheels. There is a range of 6w coaches too, plus several wagon body kits in card, with whitemetal chassis available. The axles on Slater's wagon and coach wheels are long enough to move the wheels out to 34mm back to back.

 Indeed, the only barrier to broad gauge is getting someone to turn up a 36.75mm track gauge, because C&L point kits are available, or you can buy crossing vee and blades ready made, or indeed ask Marcway in Sheffield to build points for you.

 7mm scale is expensive - points cost over £50 rtr, a loco kit will start at £150 (double that for a tender engine) and even the bits for a wagon are £20 a time. There again,  look at the prices of new 4mm rtr. Space is the other consideration, but my Arigna Town/Belmullet project is under 16' long in total and the scenic part of Northport Quay is just 7'6.

 Well worth thinking about, especially if you are starting from scratch and very addictive too...

[DJ Dangerous]

When it comes to 21mm, what is the equivalent of a set-track R2 / 438mm radius curve?

I understand that nice gentle flowing curves are ideal, but for behind the scenes, helixes etc, carrying double or triple track, what sort of space is required?

Does the inner rail of a 16,5mm 438mm radius curve work as a starting point for 21mm, or is there something that I'm missing?

Edited February 26, 2023 by DJ Dangerous
Spelling!

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

When it comes to 21mm, what is the equivalent of a set-track R2 / 438mm radius curve?

I understand that nice gentle flowing curves are ideal, but for behind the scenes, helixes etc, carrying double or triple track, what sort of space is required?

Does the inner rail of a 16,5mm 438mm radius curve work as a starting point for 21mm, or is there something that I'm missing?

There is no set-track R2 equivalent for 21mm gauge, the minimum radius is subject to the track and wheel standard chosen and type of locos and stock.

Tony Miles Advadoyle is the only large mainline continious run 21mm gauge layout in existence, the few layouts that I know of are mainly simple end-to end or small cameo layouts.

The MRSI Loughrea Group built a successful 21mm gauge circular test track with a 2'6" or 760mm radius about 20 years ago, though I would not recommend anything less than 3' or 914mm (if working to EM standards) for a layout with large diesel or steam locos and long (.60') bogie coaches.

To reliably operate an Irish 4mm Broad Gauge layout on smaller radius curves you are potentially looking at adapting OO/HO running standards and reducing the gauge to 19.3 or widening the bodies and chassis of locos and coaches so the trains will get round the curves, same problem that forced UK manufacturers to adapt OO during the 1920s.

North Kerry in 21, OO and N Scale. I worked out a number of schemes for modelling the "North Kerry' in my 5.2X3.5 garage several years ago but still have not gotten round to actually starting work on a layout

These three schemes of the types of layout that can be fitted in the same space in different scales and modelling standards

21mm gauge: Basically a double track oval station on one side staging opposite.

OO Gauge "American walk around" style layout with center peninsula with two small and one large station staging on opposite side. 2'6" min rad curves.

N gauge two large and two small stations modelled in the correct order and orientation.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

On 29/11/2022 at 2:15 PM, MGWR110Bat said:

Hello,

As of Yesterday I appear to have been thrust into the world of Irish railway modelling when my other half came home with this: 

 

M&GWR E Class 0-6-0T No.110 Bat in 4mm Scale, 21mm Gauge. We're not sure if she's a kitbash or scratchbuilt (The Studio kit is for the later condition), but she was reasonably priced and looks gorgeous. In due course we hope to have her finished in M&GWR Green (I considered inauthentic blue, but it's probably best to stick to the prototype!).

I've been wanting to model an Irish prototype for some time and was, admittedly, planning to do this with 16.5mm. But we are where we are and I'm both daunted and looking forward to the challenge of 21mm for someone who has yet to try building track or working with P4 standards generally. I haven't got a huge amount to report yet, work so far has mostly focused on getting Bat into a usable condition (She needed attention to the quartering on her wheels, adjustments to her gearing and needs some work on her pickups).

Initially I am hoping I may be able to regauge some 16.5mm stock to 21mm as a stop-gap until my modelling skills have caught up with this sudden dive into finescale modelling! I've identified a few RTR British locos which may have potential to be bashed into M&GWR and GNR(I) goods engines so this would be useful!

I suppose, then, this will start with some questions:
1.) Where would be a good place to start sourcing some suitable axles for 21mm Stock?

2.) Has anyone tried regauging 16.5mm stock to 21mm? What was required and how did you go about doing it?

3.) Any recommendations for sourcing further M&GWR and GNR(I) locos and rolling stock from the latter part of the 19th Century through to the 1920s?

4.) Unrelated to the M&GWR, but anyone tried converting a Hornby 4P tank into a UTA 'Jeep' in 21mm or is that a stretch too far?

Thank you all in advance!

- Dan

You're better with green. Those were never blue - in fact only a small handful of MGWR locos were ever blue and they were (a) express passenger types; (b) few in number; and (c) very short-lived. MGWR used a lightish green until before those were built -  a darkish leaf green (probably not a million miles off British Railways loco green) from about 1890 to 1915 or so, lined black after that until 1925, after which they were plain grey until withdrawal in the 1950s. Needs red buffer beams too.

The way it is in your pic - I can't make out if that's a name plate or a GSR number plate. If the former, black or green livery. if it's a number plate, plain dark grey would be the only accurate livery. In the 1950s some, but not all, had the numberplates removed and a large painted number put there instead.

Nice catch - especially if the price was good!

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Thanks, @Mayner!

Fabulous info, specially the graphics using the same space!

Looking at the space in the garage, if I set the height at 1100mm off the floor, I can probably get a board 1800mm to 1900mm wide in, while still having space to slide the car bonnet underneath.

So, two very gradual 16,5mm curves today may translate into two very tight 21mm curves in a few years time.

Edited February 27, 2023 by DJ Dangerous
Added info.