Belfast Queens Bridge station

[airfixfan]

There is an article on the Railways of Belfast by Steven Hodge with a photo of Queens Bridge 

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, airfixfan said:

There is an article on the Railways of Belfast by Steven Hodge with a photo of Queens Bridge

Hi Jim, There is an article (with indeed photo of Queens Bridge) by Trevor Hodge in the OCTOBER 1954 issue of Railway Magazine! The text is factually incorrect where it refers to the Belfast Central Railway. LM

[Lambeg man]

This picture is an extract from a much larger aerial photo of Belfast in May 1955. Queens Bridge station can just be made out. Of interest to me is that kick back siding running to a shed shown in the 1931 OS map is not present. There appears to be a gateway off Laganbank Road accessing the yard at the top of the picture which has a single siding, as per my plan. So the hunt for the elusive rail connected shed is over!

National Library of Ireland

Also this afternoon took advantage of a break to clear a 12' x 2' area of the former 'Scarva' layout and lay out what points and track I already have. Things can look different in the flesh compared to a 2-D drawing! Results follow.

  

No. 19 sitting about the halfway point. The 12' starts at the base of the 'Y' point in the distance.

 

Looking in the other direction.

Overall I think the "plan" should work. Obviously need a few more points to complete.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Lambeg man

[Lambeg man]

4 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

So the hunt for the elusive rail connected shed is over!

Not quite! 1930's shot of the station area showing the shed and more interestingly the sand(?) mounds on the other side of Laganbank Road. Given the amount of sand residue in front of it, this shed (probably the original BCR Goods shed) appears out of use.

From 'Britain from Above'

The above layout ties in with the 1931 OS map. I am looking at the amount of sand deposit to the left of the big shed and what appear to be a long rake of wagons filled with sand further left.

From 'Britain from Above'

Closer view shows how there was a three way exit from the tunnel, the right hand one apparently later removed. Given my previous discourse as to what traffic was actually dealt with at Queens Bridge, it would appear that this may have been the final call for the Coalisland Sand Trains(?). The vans in the old passenger station suggest the only other traffic was 'Sundries'.

I am now off to work out how to configure the baseboards into a sort of 80 degree angle to allow deeper space in the middle of the subsequent corner area to accommodate the old station buildings. Will still stick with the 1950's layout where the big shed was gone.

Question - How do you shunt a rake of five plank goods wagons loaded with sand into a siding area, unload them, run the empties out and then get the sand back into the empty wagons? Answers on a postcard please.

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Lambeg man

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

Not quite! 1930's shot of the station area showing the shed and more interestingly the sand(?) mounds on the other side of Laganbank Road. Given the amount of sand residue in front of it, this shed (probably the original BCR Goods shed) appears out of use.

From 'Britain from Above'

The above layout ties in with the 1931 OS map. I am looking at the amount of sand deposit to the left of the big shed and what appear to be a long rake of wagons filled with sand further left.

From 'Britain from Above'

Closer view shows how there was a three way exit from the tunnel, the right hand one apparently later removed. Given my previous discourse as to what traffic was actually dealt with at Queens Bridge, it would appear that this may have been the final call for the Coalisland Sand Trains(?). The vans in the old passenger station suggest the only other traffic was 'Sundries'.

I am now off to work out how to configure the baseboards into a sort of 80 degree angle to allow deeper space in the middle of the subsequent corner area to accommodate the old station buildings. Will still stick with the 1950's layout where the big shed was gone.

Question - How do you shunt a rake of five plank goods wagons loaded with sand into a siding area, unload them, run the empties out and then get the sand back into the empty wagons? Answers on a postcard please.

SUPERB research work, Lambegman. Most interesting! The BCR is worthy of a serious study in itself.

[Lambeg man]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

SUPERB research work, Lambegman. Most interesting! The BCR is worthy of a serious study in itself.

Thanks for that JHB. It is my understanding that someone else is already on the case having recently been asked if I could help out with BCR carriage drawings. LM

Edited January 8, 2023 by Lambeg man

[Patrick Davey]

Fascinating - enjoying this!

[Lambeg man]

To quote E.M. Patterson "The proposed Central Station was to be built between High Street and Waring Street, with frontage onto Victoria Street." The white patch in the upper part of the following photo shows the approximate location for the intended Central Station in relation to where the Central Railway actually ended at Queens Bridge, seen in the lower part of the photo. Had this project ever got legs there was clearly a lot of established property that would have had to be demolished. At one point it was also proposed to build a second viaduct over the Lagan to allow B&CDR trains to run direct into the new station. There appears to have been no definite plan as to how this station would be connected to York Road. Were all this proposed in more recent times it may well have already been labelled "ill thought, impractical, unfunded - just another Boris project"! 

Britain from Above

Going back to the earlier photo and the my reference to the large shed possibly being the original BCR Goods Shed, have a closer look at the smaller shed indicated by the arrow. Note the roof ventilators. Surely this has to have been the BCR loco shed? The did actually own 3 or 4 of their own locomotives (all small tanks).

Tracks overdrawn in blue.

  

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Lambeg man

[GNRi1959]

Steve, some interesting reading and pictures. A very exciting stage in layout planning. It has given me ideas to re-start my modelling.

One question, is that sundaela board on your baseboard surface? Most plywood today, apart from birch, are rubbish.

[Lambeg man]

4 minutes ago, GNRi1959 said:

One question, is that sundaela board on your baseboard surface? Most plywood today, apart from birch, are rubbish.

Yes. 2" x 1" timber framing, then a sheet 4' x 2' 6mm MDF covered by 4' x 2' Sundela board. Have stuck with this as they are already made up. Modern Sundela is rubbish as years ago the original was made from surplus pulp generated by Fleet Street newspapers. When that source dried up they switched to an alternative which is not as good. 

[DAVID WILSON]

Not quite the info you seek, but will give you hopefully inspiration of that subway area.

 

David

[Patrick Davey]

@DAVID WILSON thank you for sharing that link, I had been looking for it for a while, fantastic footage, am guessing very early 1960s?  Shows the subway in great detail, not to mention the trolleybuses and all the other now vanished sights of bygone Belfast.  The Queen's Bridge station area was gone by this stage, replaced by Oxford Street UTA bus station - love the buses in the footage too - although the link through the subway was retained for a good few years.  The line ran down from East Bridge Street Junction along the back wall of the bus station along Laganbank Road, and into the tunnel.  A short fragment of this line remained until as late as the 1990s, I have a photograph of it somewhere - looking now.

Enjoying this thread very much @Lambeg man!

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, DAVID WILSON said:

Not quite the info you seek, but will give you hopefully inspiration of that subway area.

On the contrary David, some VERY interesting bits. Note the often single wagon transfers. Note the absence of ballast! Shot circa 1963 just before the section closed. You can clearly see why there was the need for a second road bridge! The south exit from the tunnel swings more sharply to the right than it did prior to 1960. The line was obviously slewed closer to Laganbank Road to allow the bus station to be built on the site of Queens Bridge station. Excellent post, thank you. LM  

[Galteemore]

The sound and fury of a PG rushing that bank with a heavy load must have been something else. 

[MikeO]

A great video loads of interesting details. for example a red coverd van labelled Gunpowder. GNR initials on the tanks of the loco and  UT initials stencilled on the back of the bunker. Lots to interest other modellers of Irish stock.

 

MikeO

[Lambeg man]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

The sound and fury of a PG rushing that bank with a heavy load must have been something else. 

As can be seen in the video, the gradients both IN the tunnel itself and on the SOUTH SIDE after the slewing were brief but clearly severe. I am yet undecided whether to incorporate the 'FALL' into the tunnel in respect of the two middle lines or whether to keep things simple and avoid gradients.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Lambeg man

[Tullygrainey]

5 hours ago, DAVID WILSON said:

Not quite the info you seek, but will give you hopefully inspiration of that subway area.

 

David

Wow! That brings back some very distant memories. I remember, as a very young child, seeing locos appear out of the subway. And Harkness's horses, lined up by the side of the road with their noses in leather feed bags.

Alan

[Galteemore]

42 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

As can be seen in the video, the gradients both IN the tunnel itself and on the SOUTH SIDE after the slewing were brief but clearly severe. I am yet undecided whether to incorporate the 'FALL' into the tunnel in respect of the two middle lines or whether to keep things simple and avoid gradients.

Avoid them would be my instinct.  Unless you have a 1/43 sized figure standing by to pin down brakes etc……gradients like that on a model add all the inconvenience of the prototype without the compensation of the sound and smoke effect that an engine barking up that would give. 

[Lambeg man]

14 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Avoid them would be my instinct.  Unless you have a 1/43 sized figure standing by to pin down brakes etc……gradients like that on a model add all the inconvenience of the prototype without the compensation of the sound and smoke effect that an engine barking up that would give. 

Yes, I would tend to agree. The gradient 'fall' down into the tunnel would need to begin about halfway along the layout, leading to issues of 'parked' wagons running away IF operating purely shunting movements within the 12' main section when the Hidden Sidings would not be attached. I think I will keep the whole of the 12' main section on the level!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Lambeg man

[Broithe]

Mmm, installing steep gradients on model layouts...

...it can be a slippery slope...

[Lambeg man]

Going back to David Wilson's video, I thought these screen grabs merited further comment.

I am presuming the Gunpowder Van is of NCC origin?

When it came to repairing goods vans, the UTA replaced rotted timbers with new ones soaked in Cuprinol. They did not repaint the whole wagon, so by the early 1960's many goods vans were in this type of 'patched' livery as seen above.

Interesting little two planker. Note also the new cement mixers in the following wagon.

Large cable drum load mounted no doubt on a flat wagon on the rear of the train. Note also NO Brake Van in use on these transfers (That's handy!)

Note the absence of any 'proper' ballast. (Equally handy!)

Edited January 11, 2023 by Lambeg man

[Galteemore]

The gunpowder van certainly has different roof and ends to the GN diagram 24 one. Mind you, they were built in 1913 so rebuilding could have happened. It’s a fabulous little film full of atmosphere. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Galteemore

[Lambeg man]

Back to the planning department. Extra points a deemed needed acquired over the weekend and set down in the 12' area.

With regard to the curve through Queens Bridge Station, below is a photo of the intended layout of the baseboards. So from an idea for an 8' shunting layout we have from left to right -

Board A: 4' x 1' hidden sidings x 3 - Board: B 4' x 2' scenic - Board 4' x 2' scenic - Board  

Board  

 

AS CAN BE SEEN ABOVE MY P.C. APPEARS INFECTED WITH EMOGIS WHICH I PRESUME WERE PLUGGED IN BY THIS WEBSITE. I DID NOT IMPORT THEM, THEY HAVE JUST APPEARED AS I TYPED AND I CAN FIND NO WAY TO REMOVE THEM... SO F**K IT, LIKE KIRLEY I'M OFF. GOODBYE TO ALL OF YOU AND THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT OVER THE YEARS.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Lambeg man

[jhb171achill]

Looks superb! (The layout, not the emojis!) Dunno how they appeared.......

That two-plank wagon looks like a BCDR one - or possibly one of the very rare examples of genuine private owners in Ireland - in this case an East Downshire one, possibly. The gunpowder van - now THAT is a new one to me, and a rare one! Excellent spot.

Regarding the UTA's wagon "livery"; yes - such was the state of their wagons that any attempt at reality pretty much completely excludes anything clean, pristine or tidy. Bare wood, overpainted "G"s and "N"s on some vans, clumsy renumbering - normal.

The ballast - it is actually there, but has been trampled into tghe ground and possibly not properly been renewed since BCR times!

7 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

Back to the planning department. Extra points a deemed needed acquired over the weekend and set down in the 12' area.

With regard to the curve through Queens Bridge Station, below is a photo of the intended layout of the baseboards. So from an idea for an 8' shunting layout we have from left to right -

Board A: 4' x 1' hidden sidings x 3 - Board: B 4' x 2' scenic - Board  4' x 2' scenic - Board  

Board

 

 

 

 

There ye go! Emojis gone...........

[leslie10646]

Firstly, David W, thanks for that remarkable video. I wonder who took it - John Laird or Craig Robb at a guess?

The later film of No.800 was taken on 28 February, a Friday. The day she came North. Next day, the enthusiast community was at Adelaide to photograph her beside No.207 'Boyne" which was specially steamed.

Back to the main subject:

As Steve suggests, the gunpowder van is NCC.

When researching my Gunpowder  van, a photo came to light taken by the late Derek Young which shows its sister in much more detail - the W irons are not GNR but the oblong wagon plate is the real giveaway. On  No. 2649, by the way. The one in the video is 2650, so it wasn't a solitary example.

An amazing video with a lot to see and drool over. Thanks David

[Sean Roberts]

On 6/1/2023 at 12:04 AM, Lambeg man said:

 

Thanks for that Galteemore. Yes, anything in 7mm is impressive compared to 4mm. Longer term ambition is an 0-6-0 to be added, either an NCC 'V' lookalike or a GNR 'PG'. In concept the project will of course be a 'portable' layout that can be assembled in the house or the garage when the better weather returns. I can not currently source any RTR vans, which would have been the main consist through to the docks.

To provide a scenic break at the other end of the layout the Albert Bridge will be moved nearer and East Bridge Junction will be out of sight. The signals will be provided as they were there purely to project the Junction when block working was in use for the passage of passenger and oil trains.  

 

[Colin_McLeod]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:13 PM, DAVID WILSON said:

Not quite the info you seek, but will give you hopefully inspiration of that subway area.

 

David

Superb video. Amazing that it exists. Really enjoyed watching for the railway and old Belfast interest and No 1 with 800 at Lisburn.

[Patrick Davey]

Not sure where I found this photo so apologies if I have taken it from somewhere I shouldn't have!!  It is a rare view of QB station looking FROM the direction of the tunnel.  I have tried to lighten it a bit and bizarrely adding a sepia filter seems to bring out more of the detail.  It shows a set of steps down from the platform to the track, there looks to be an open wagon in the platform road.

Two buildings in this view still remain in 2023 - the huge court building in the background and what I think is a pump house (?) which for a long time was right beside the bus entrance to Oxford Street bus station.

Hopefully of interest!

[airfixfan]

Talk in PRONI on the Belfast Central Railway on February 28th

Edited January 26, 2023 by airfixfan

[airfixfan]

Some interesting photos and maps etc of Quenns Bridge station from the early 1950s in the RPSI film show last night.

[leslie10646]

Ian Sinclair presented a remarkable story of a UTA project to develop either the Queens Bridge station, or build a new station alongside Great Victoria Street as a possible terminus for the remaining BCDR trains (Bangor and possibly Comber lines). The services were planned to be run by the then new MED diesel units.

It was the GNR's staggering volume goods traffic (in early 1950s) over the Belfast Central Railway which largely killed the project, as the passenger movements left no room for the thousands of cattle and large traffic in sand, oil, coal etc.

Ian concluded by showing the work going on today to build Belfast's "Grand Central Station" (due to open in the next couple of years) on virtually the site planned in the early 1950s!

A brilliant piece of research and my heartiest congratulation to Ian..

[Galteemore]

Fascinating. Often thought the Victorians missed a great opportunity to build a ‘Grand Union’ terminal in Belfast. Growing up, and commuting to school on the NCC, it always struck me how cut off York Road in particular seemed from the rest of the city. By the 1970s, bombing (aerial and ground), road ‘improvements’ and urban blight had left a no-man’s-land between the station and the city. It was hard to believe what a thriving artery York Street had once been, all the way up to Royal Avenue. Even so, a traveller from Larne heading to Dublin or Downpatrick faced quite a schlepp by foot or tram. 
 

The opening of the link bridge in the 1990s was a wonderful moment - just a pity it took so long. Hopefully the fully integrated transport system that NI needs is finally beginning to shape up. 
 

What a fantastic model such a union station could make - Moguls, Compounds, and BCDR No 6 side by side! 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Galteemore

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

Ian Sinclair presented a remarkable story of a UTA project to develop either the Queens Bridge station, or build a new station alongside Great Victoria Street as a possible terminus for the remaining BCDR trains (Bangor and possibly Comber lines). The services were planned to be run by the then new MED diesel units.

It was the GNR's staggering volume goods traffic (in early 1950s) over the Belfast Central Railway which largely killed the project, as the passenger movements left no room for the thousands of cattle and large traffic in sand, oil, coal etc.

Ian concluded by showing the work going on today to build Belfast's "Grand Central Station" (due to open in the next couple of years) on virtually the site planned in the early 1950s!

A brilliant piece of research and my heartiest congratulation to Ian..

Seeing the site of GVS back to something of its former glory will be good to see, current station is pretty drab. Much more central location than 'Central' station, or is that why they started calling it Lanyon place so everyone would stop laughing....

..I suppose theres a larger discussion on the new station to be had, for another thread.

I like Queens bridge, it reminds me somewhat of Liffey Junction, being primarily for goods. Liffey Junction was an interchange for a while, and you'd better hope the connection was coming, because there was no way off the island platform! Unless you were brave/stupid..

Looking forward to see the model progress!

[Dunluce Castle]

I recently came across this footage on YouTube of the very line covered in this thread, but from an earlier period. It features a mixture of liveries so could be from anywhere between 1923 and 1930s? Very crisp imaging which is great for viewing. The clip starts at the one minute mark.

https://youtu.be/iXm7qNdZc3w?si=puWjxF7s5VlCl9qT

[jhb171achill]

33 minutes ago, Dunluce Castle said:

I recently came across this footage on YouTube of the very line covered in this thread, but from an earlier period. It features a mixture of liveries so could be from anywhere between 1923 and 1930s? Very crisp imaging which is great for viewing. The clip starts at the one minute mark.

https://youtu.be/iXm7qNdZc3w?si=puWjxF7s5VlCl9qT

Fascinating stuff.

The clip of the railway wagons, going by the NCC lettering style, is late 1920s, even up to mid 30s. The GNR vans in particular look very “modern” for this era.

I know virtually nothing about things that float rather than run on rails, so I can’t suggest whether the maritime clips are the same age.