Private Railfreight Operators

[dave182]

With Iarnrod Eireanns 2040 freight plan recently published, and the reconnection of the Port of Foynes back to the network, rail freight is quite topical at the moment.

Is there anything stopping an operator like DB Cargo or GBRf taking on one of the new freight flows such as ore to Foynes?

I'd like to see an operator like Finlands Fenniarail operating on this island. They would be suited to the smaller volume flows and short distances. 

I don't believe that privatisation os the way forward. I think it's imlortant that the state through IE maintains ownership of the network and infrastructure. I also don't think that the passanger services should be privatised as the population is too small. But I do think that some healthy competition in the freight sector would help to grow railfreight. But this would have to be supported by all, and be promoted as a real long-term solution to traffic and climate and so on. 

Anyways, just interested to hear your thoughts, for or against private railfreight operators entering the market! 

Who wouldn't like to see a Czech built DR18 co-co diesel rolling into Foynes?!? 

[jhb171achill]

Correct. No matter what anyone's politics are, privatisation of railways in a country like Ireland (north AND south) would be disastrous. It's simply not an option.

However, this is not to say that a commercial operator could not "buy access" too - but such an operator would find the rail operation not to be something which put euros in its shareholders' pockets.

[Niles]

As it stands, private freight operators have had access for what must be a decade now. The fact that there's been no take up says a lot as to its perceived lucrativeness though...

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, Niles said:

As it stands, private freight operators have had access for what must be a decade now. The fact that there's been no take up says a lot as to its perceived lucrativeness though...

EXACTLY!

[Bob229]

Unfortunately too little freight opportunities, wonder would Diageo go back to keg containers liners

[Westcorkrailway]

9 minutes ago, Bob229 said:

Unfortunately too little freight opportunities, wonder would Diageo go back to keg containers liners

Guiness liveried 201s

[Bob229]

8 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Guiness liveried 201s

Like the Dart

[Mayner]

Rough comparison between Ireland, New Zealand and Tasmania in terms of freight tonnage and % of freight carried by rail.

Tasmania is closest to Ireland in terms of traffic carried and the size of the rail Network, in New Zealand traffic density tends to be heavier and line haul longer, in all three countries a high proportion of freight is transported for a small number (3-6) of companies. 

The greatest difference New Zealand and Ireland is that the majority of export traffic from food (dairy, meat) and wood processing (paper/pulp, board processing are transported by rail rather than road because of direct rail access and the long distance between the food and wood processing plants and the ports.

The majority of rail served industries in New Zealand and Tasmania are large enough in scale to send out traffic by the train load (20-30 Bogies) rather than the individual wagon load, the Waterford Coillte plant exports its output of OSB board directly by sea, while none of Ireland's dairy and meat processing plants have a direct rail connection with the possible exception of Glanbia Portlaoise. 

Glanbia Ballyragget (the largest combined dairy plant in the EU) is probably large enough to generate train load traffic, but its unlikely that the Irish Government or Glanbia would be prepared to fund a rail connection from Kilkenny or Portlaoise to absorb the plants output.

Anyway back to traffic.

Ireland 0.8m tonnes annually or 1.1% of annual freight task (traffic declined from approx 3.3m tonnes between 1970-90s

Tasmania 2.2m Tonnes------18% freight task mainly serves paper processing and mining industry (coal and zinc)

New Zealand 19m Tonnes-----16% freight task largest shippers export dairy, paper/wood product/mining (coal and gold), export and internal intermodal logistics.

Interestingly both the New Zealand and Tasmanian rail systems were privatised during the 90s and re-nationalised (bought back) in the late 2000s after the private sector operator failed to achieve an adequate return on their investment.  

The Irish Government would probably have to fund new locomotives and rolling stock for IE or an "Open Access" operator as the 071s are near the end of their economic life and IEs freight stock with the exception of the pocket wagons are obsolete and life expired. Following the 'buy back" it was necessary for both the Tasmanian and New Zealand government to replace the majority of their locomotive and wagon fleets as both were life expired.

[Ironroad]

If I recollect correctly, CIE is obligated by EU regulations to permit open access to the network by private operators of either freight or passenger services. The fact that this has not occurred may become a thorny issue as my understanding is they should be facilitating private operators and a view may be taken that not enough is done in that regard.   To get private operators interested requires investment in the infrastructure not in rolling stock or locomotives.

[minister_for_hardship]

Well meaning but unrealistic Euro-twaddle. No quick buck to be made hence no interest.

[Niles]

Open to correction, but I think there's an exemption here in the case of regular domestic passenger services. Tourist or heritage passenger operators can apply (e.g. Belmond, RPSI) but it's not the case that Go Ahead, for example, could apply to operate a commuter service from Maynooth. Likewise, Belmond or RPSI couldn't apply to operate such a service either. 

[DoctorPan]

16 hours ago, Niles said:

As it stands, private freight operators have had access for what must be a decade now. The fact that there's been no take up says a lot as to its perceived lucrativeness though...

More down to Irish Rail extremely high track access charges, a side effect of which has killed its own business case for a lot of railfreight as its too expensive to run

[WRENNEIRE]

Is there a list of what containers run on the system currently?

[MOGUL]

2 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Is there a list of what containers run on the system currently?

There is, there's a couple of threads on here with discussions on it.. There is also a list on the PC i'm typing this one with every container moved by rail between Dublin and Ballina since 2009, so feel free to ask..

With containers anything could show up in the morning and run on the rails from Dublin down to Ballina within reason! Much less limited than rolling stock

 

[MOGUL]

21 hours ago, dave182 said:

With Iarnrod Eireanns 2040 freight plan recently published, and the reconnection of the Port of Foynes back to the network, rail freight is quite topical at the moment.

Is there anything stopping an operator like DB Cargo or GBRf taking on one of the new freight flows such as ore to Foynes?

I'd like to see an operator like Finlands Fenniarail operating on this island. They would be suited to the smaller volume flows and short distances. 

I don't believe that privatisation os the way forward. I think it's imlortant that the state through IE maintains ownership of the network and infrastructure. I also don't think that the passanger services should be privatised as the population is too small. But I do think that some healthy competition in the freight sector would help to grow railfreight. But this would have to be supported by all, and be promoted as a real long-term solution to traffic and climate and so on. 

Anyways, just interested to hear your thoughts, for or against private railfreight operators entering the market! 

Who wouldn't like to see a Czech built DR18 co-co diesel rolling into Foynes?!? 

Hard to see it stacking up to be honest, much less covering the upfront cost of ordering new rolling stock to 5ft 3in gauge.. Also the market is so small, if the customer you signed up with went wallop or changed their logistics arrangements, you would be left with effectively bespoke equipment that it would be very hard to find a replacement customer for, which is a VERY big risk to take on.. This is likely the reason we have seen very little specialised wagons in Ireland in the past 30 years, with most of the early 90s flows re-purposing existing equipment(Molasses, 2 Axle timber, beet wagos) or using containers(Grain, 42ft Beet wagons, proposal for cement containers to replace the bubbles) 

Current IE rail operations are quite tied in with passenger ops, with drivers working a liner out and a passenger back say(the down IWT liner is operated by driver ex the early train ex Athlone for example).. This allows more effective use of the drivers than dead heading would.. They also benefit from fully depreciated rolling stock which would not be the case for a new entrant..

Edited January 19, 2023 by MOGUL

[MOGUL]

On 19/1/2023 at 1:40 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

Is there a list of what containers run on the system currently?

Here is Dave's  list in case anyone is interested.. @Arranmight be able to advise what he has that is suitable from these lists..

Hard one to pin down but here's a rough list based on 2022/3.. This list is not exhaustive, and as I mentioned below, anything could in theory arrive tomorrow to go to Ballina on the train(that is the nature of shipping)

XPO liner(easy one)

20ft tanks, Dana and Murphys..  Generally 8 per week..

45ft DVs(dapol), Samskip and samskip's hire boxes(mostly unit 45ft, CAI or triton).. Dapol do 45ft Samskip as a two pack with a P&O.. They did a Florens 45ft a few years back that would be suitable also.. 2-4 per week in 2022(none so far in 2023)

45ft Reefers, Samkip equipment(Cool Box) and Samskip hire boxes, again unit 45ft, triton or Cronos.. 2-4 per week in 2022(none so far in 2023)

 

IWT Liner

20ft Tanks

Dana and Murphys, about 8 per month

GCA, about 15-20 per week, very common.. Arran does these

Bruhn, about 20 per week, very common.. Arran does these

20ft Bulks

BLS units, about 6-9 per week, very common.. no one does these, trying to convert one from a Bachmann box, still working on it

30ft Bulks

Occasional moves, maybe 1-2 per month.. Mainly Schmidt Heilbronn with the odd BELL in the loop.. Arran does 30fts as a Kit I think..

20ft Dry vans

CMA and CMA hire boxes, maybe 2-4 per week so semi common.. Dapol do CMA boxes(currently in a 2 pack with Hyundai(little use for Ireland post 2005).. CMA own APL so we seen some APL boxes also.. Hire boxes would be Tritons(Dapol), CAIs(C-Rail) and Dong Feng(not modelled)

MSC and MSC hire boxes, 1-2 per month.. Done by Dapol and Arran.. Hire boxes mainly Tritons(Dapol) or Tex(don't think it modelled)

Borchard, use Maritime containers(blue and white).. not modelled

Other lines, from time to time Hapags(C-rail), Yang Ming(C-rail) and Evergreen(C-rail)

20ft Reefers

CMA and CMA hire boxes, maybe 3-4 per month so semi common.. Crail does CMA box.. Hire boxes would be Cronos or Triton(not modelled)

40ft Dry vans both 8ft 6 DV and 9ft 6 HC

CMA and CMA hire boxes, 18-20 per week so Very common.. Dapol and C rail do CMA boxes(both 40ft DV(8ft 6) and 40ft HC(9ft 6)).. CMA own APL so we seen some APL boxes also(C-rail).. Hire boxes would be Tritons(Dapol), Seaco, CAIs(C-Rail) and Dong Feng

MSC and MSC hire boxes, 1-2 per month.. Done by Dapol and Arran.. Hire boxes mainly Tritons(Dapol) or Tex(don't think it modelled)

One line about 3 per week PINK!, done by Dapol and Arran.. Dapols had poor printing but they did issue the white variant also..

Other lines, from time to time we get odds and sods, mainly Hapag (C-rail and Dapol), Yang Ming(Crail) and Evergreen(C-rail do 8ft 6 and 9ft 6)

 

45ft Dry Vans

IWT units, 8-12 per week, very common and distinctive.. A mixture of Cronos leased boxes with IWT livery applied(2 variants) and ex CLDN stock renumbered with IWTU prefixes.. no model YET, watch this space

CLDN units, 8-12 per week, very common. Modelled by dapol, not sure when these will be in stock

EUCON units and hire units, 2-10 per week.. Modelled by Bachmann using this 13.6m tooling.. Hire units are mainly CAI

45ft Reefer-Not modelled

Samskip, 2-5 per week.. Same as on XPO, not modelled..

Containerships and Hire boxes, 8-12 per week.. Hire boxes are mainly Unit 45, triton and Cronos

Edited January 20, 2023 by MOGUL

[Rob]

Wow!   Excellent info- cheers for that.   EXACTLY what l want!

[DJ Dangerous]

On 20/1/2023 at 2:28 PM, MOGUL said:

45ft Dry Vans

 

IWT units, 8-12 per week, very common and distinctive.. A mixture of Cronos leased boxes with IWT livery applied(2 variants) and ex CLDN stock renumbered with IWTU prefixes.. no model YET, watch this space

CLDN units, 8-12 per week, very common. Modelled by dapol, not sure when these will be in stock

EUCON units and hire units, 2-10 per week.. Modelled by Bachmann using this 13.6m tooling.. Hire units are mainly CAI

45ft Reefer-Not modelled

Samskip, 2-5 per week.. Same as on XPO, not modelled..

Containerships and Hire boxes, 8-12 per week.. Hire boxes are mainly Unit 45, triton and Cronos

 

Savage info, @MOGUL!!!

We need 45's from @Arran!