what happened to the west Clare

[irishrailways52]

was down at the west Clare heritage railway recently. unfortunately things are a bit of a mess. according to the website the railway was closed until further notice. I tried e mailing about 6 months ago but got no response. any ideas what's going on. 

[Wexford70]

I was there a while back and was also surprised at the state of buildings and station area in general. I hope everything is ok with the owner, Jackie.

Edited January 24 by Wexford70

[jhb171achill]

This site is owned and operated, like several Irish heritage outfits, by a sole private owner. The Achilles' heel of such operations, without an actual preservation society set up, is that when the owner becomes elderly or infirm, the whole thing often folds up.

I have not been in touch with the owners for a while, so I am not in a position to comment on whether this is the situation with them, but what I do know is that Jackie and his good lady are indeed elderly, and other than that there's just their son involved; plus, they have not been trading frequently in recent years, which could suggest that those involved don't have the time.

It's a pity, but it is reflective of the overall low level of interest on this island in railway heritage. As you say, let us hope they are in good health.

[Mike 84C]

My wife and I were there about 2010, Jackie opened up the shed but I could not get a decent photo of the loco. I thought the railway had potential to be successful and what a character Jackie is!

What has happened o the ex CIE that were stored there? They were rusty enough  back then and I can imagine that if they are still stored outside under sheeting they must be in a pretty dire state.

Alan Keefe engineering from Ross on Wye restored the steam  loco, be a shame if it went the same way.

 

[jhb171achill]

The main line stuff is owned by the ITG and stored across the road.

[irishrailways52]

hopefully it does not end up like Tralee to dingle

[Wexford70]

19 hours ago, irishrailways52 said:

hopefully it does not end up like Tralee to dingle

An example of how badly preservation efforts can fail. The council has to take responsibility for preservation of the loco I believe.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

An example of how badly preservation efforts can fail. The council has to take responsibility for preservation of the loco I believe.

Indeed. A mess. It should be sent to Dromod.

[Wexford70]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed. A mess. It should be sent to Dromod.

Not much of it left to restore versus replace from what I have heard:

 

[Bob229]

Sad to see,  was there in 2019 and enjoyed a spin on the West Clare railway and viewed the layout in the station hard to keep running on your own

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Bob229 said:

Sad to see,  was there in 2019 and enjoyed a spin on the West Clare railway and viewed the layout in the station hard to keep running on your own

Indeed, and on a regular basis impossible. When the DCDR is open, during the day some 16 volunteers are on duty at any one time. One more reason why railway heritage groups are always on the lookout for new volunteers, and why oft-seen comments that "it would be good if someone preserved.....(something)" are often unrealistic - if well-intentioned. There simply isn't the level of interest overall in this country to keep anything much more than we already have, in operations. Jackie would love to have a regular band of volunteers down in Moyasta, but the boots just aren't on the ground.

[Bob229]

27 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed, and on a regular basis impossible. When the DCDR is open, during the day some 16 volunteers are on duty at any one time. One more reason why railway heritage groups are always on the lookout for new volunteers, and why oft-seen comments that "it would be good if someone preserved.....(something)" are often unrealistic - if well-intentioned. There simply isn't the level of interest overall in this country to keep anything much more than we already have, in operations. Jackie would love to have a regular band of volunteers down in Moyasta, but the boots just aren't on the ground.

Needs a group of volunteers like in Ma'am cross

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Bob229 said:

Needs a group of volunteers like in Ma'am cross

Any outfit like Moyasta would, yes.

[Mike 84C]

I wonder if all the non ferrous parts were put under lock and key? If bearings and injectors have been stolen then restoration just gets harder and vastly more expensive. Trajic No 5 is in that condition.

[minister_for_hardship]

On 28/1/2024 at 2:30 PM, irishrailways52 said:

hopefully it does not end up like Tralee to dingle

Unless there's arrangements made for the future of the site and contents it could well be Blennerville mk2 

[jhb171achill]

As it was, courtesy of Senior in the 1930s..........

[jhb171achill]

Today is the 63rd anniversary of the closure of the West Clare - Ireland's only narrow gauge line which was fully dieselised, and the last public narrow gauge line (unless you count the new Dublin trams!)

1st February 1961; RIP.

[Mike Beckett]

Imagine the joy in some quarters if Moyasta does indeed collapse completely.

[Mike 84C]

Mike Beckett; I do not understand the politics of Irish preservation. If its not too contentious, please explain the joy over the collapse of Moyasta and from where?

 

[Niles]

Just now, Mike 84C said:

Mike Beckett; I do not understand the politics of Irish preservation. If its not too contentious, please explain the joy over the collapse of Moyasta and from where?

 

If you look on certain Facebook groups, there are a few who seem to love posting about the ITG/Moyasta's alleged failings without offering anything positive to help.

"It's too far to volunteer at Carrick/Downpatrick" - but will drive to Moyasta to take pictures they can post up and moan about.

One actually blatantly admitted to wishing he'd stolen bits off an A class... some "enthusiast".

 

[Mike Beckett]

20 minutes ago, Niles said:

If you look on certain Facebook groups, there are a few who seem to love posting about the ITG/Moyasta's alleged failings without offering anything positive to help.

"It's too far to volunteer at Carrick/Downpatrick" - but will drive to Moyasta to take pictures they can post up and moan about.

One actually blatantly admitted to wishing he'd stolen bits off an A class... some "enthusiast".

 

Pretty much this. Some people just hate us for trying. No, I can’t explain why.

Edited February 2 by Mike Beckett

[DERAILED]

6 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Mike Beckett; I do not understand the politics of Irish preservation. If its not too contentious, please explain the joy over the collapse of Moyasta and from where?

 

You need to have been involved in it to understand and there's no way it can be explained adequately to an outsider. As for Moyasta, I won't mourn its passing - it was always going to end this way run by an arrogant SOB. I know from first-hand experience of dealing with the individual concerned. Blennerville was hijacked by a coterie of local business interests and Tralee UDC and was always doomed to fail once they drove off the enthusiasts. As for the other well known project...what goes around comes around and I won't be shedding any tears.

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, DERAILED said:

You need to have been involved in it to understand and there's no way it can be explained adequately to an outsider. As for Moyasta, I won't mourn its passing - it was always going to end this way run by an arrogant SOB. I know from first-hand experience of dealing with the individual concerned. Blennerville was hijacked by a coterie of local business interests and Tralee UDC and was always doomed to fail once they drove off the enthusiasts. As for the other well known project...what goes around comes around and I won't be shedding any tears.

[airfixfan]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:58 PM, DERAILED said:

You need to have been involved in it to understand and there's no way it can be explained adequately to an outsider. As for Moyasta, I won't mourn its passing - it was always going to end this way run by an arrogant SOB. I know from first-hand experience of dealing with the individual concerned. Blennerville was hijacked by a coterie of local business interests and Tralee UDC and was always doomed to fail once they drove off the enthusiasts. As for the other well known project...what goes around comes around and I won't be shedding any tears.

Same problem in Derry when the Council took over the Museum they  drove the enthusiasts out and closed the railway/museum out within months for 15 years to save money!

[Paul 34F]

I presume business interests get involved as they believe it gives access to grants from Government or the EU, from which they will be able to benefit?  When it drives the volunteers away and the costs mount, the business interests drift away.

As for the image of number 5, it appears to have been dismantled for overhaul?  The boiler and smokebox have been lifted out of the frames.

Paul

[Horsetan]

28 minutes ago, Paul 34F said:

....As for the image of number 5, it appears to have been dismantled for overhaul?  The boiler and smokebox have been lifted out of the frames.

Nothing has changed there in the last 20 years....

[jhb171achill]

I do know that Jackie (West Clare) applied for several grants to develop Moyasta further. The waste ground upon which the ITG equipment currently lies would have been developed as a railway museum, and a couple of proper West Clare carriages would have been built. Major upgrades to the station building would have been also required.

I saw the grant application, which was professionally prepared for Jackie.

Unfortunately, though, it was ultimately unsuccessful.

2 hours ago, Paul 34F said:

I presume business interests get involved as they believe it gives access to grants from Government or the EU, from which they will be able to benefit?  When it drives the volunteers away and the costs mount, the business interests drift away.

These grants can be given to voluntary bodies too. Private individuals won't have any luck, and businesses have a whole pile more hurdles to jump. In order to access these grants - most of them anyway - a properly run body like a preservation society or some other type of heritage body with a committee, constitution, etc., is usually necessary.

As an aside, possibly uniquely, in Ireland - several of the heritage-type railway schemes are privately owned by one (or maybe two) individuals. While this does not officially bar them from grants, as such, it makes eligibility more difficult. I've had personal experience of preparing applications for a number of projects. One - relating to Downpatrick some 25 years ago - came up aganist this issue. At the time, the DCDR was not operated as it is now, as a democratically run society with elected officers, but it was in the course of changing to that. Once this was the case, and the Downpatrick & Ardglass Rly Co (privately owned by about half a dozen founder members) had been dissolved and the assets placed in the hands of the new registered charity, Downpatrick & Co Down Railway, both local authority and other grants were instantly available.

Edited February 4 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

.

As an aside, possibly uniquely, in Ireland - several of the heritage-type railway schemes are privately owned by one (or maybe two) individuals. While this does not officially bar them from grants, as such, it makes eligibility more difficult. I've had personal experience of preparing applications for a number of projects. One - relating to Downpatrick some 25 years ago - came up aganist this issue. At the time, the DCDR was not operated as it is now, as a democratically run society with elected officers, but it was in the course of changing to that. Once this was the case, and the Downpatrick & Ardglass Rly Co (privately owned by about half a dozen founder members) had been dissolved and the assets placed in the hands of the new registered charity, Downpatrick & Co Down Railway, both local authority and other grants were instantly available.

I think part of the problem in Ireland North and South is the expectation that the Government with provide grant grants for heritage schemes rather than the owners or supporters groups putting their hands in their own pockets. Possibly tied up with the culture that developed that overseas companies would only invest in Ireland if given tax breaks or that it was necessary to provide tax breaks to encourage people to buy their own home (mortgage interest relief) or encourage investors to build apartments (S23), hotels and tourist accommodation.  Biggest culture shock moving to New Zealand was that I paid about the same amount of net tax without tax relief on mortgage, medical insurance or pension contributions.  

Privately owned steam/heritage railways schemes are not unique to Ireland. The Dart Valley Railway (Kingswear-Paignton 6miles ) the Brecon Mountain Railway 6 miles,  and Vale of Rheidol (11¼ miles) are privately (company or family trust) fully commercial operations that operate without volunteer labour. The Main Line Steam Trust in New Zealand is controlled by an individual who owns the largest operating fleet of steam locos in the Southern Hemisphere (mainly NZ and South Africa.

On a smaller scale the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway (¾ mile)  has largely self-funded its restoration efforts through donations and bequests from its 1000 strong membership starting from a greenfield site in 1980 restoring several steam and diesel locos, building coaches, station and volunteer facilities from scratch with minimal grant aid from the UK or Welsh Government. Operating a similar timetable to the Waterford and Suir Valley, trains are mainly operated by volunteers that have retired in the area assisted by a small group of regular volunteers who travel to the area on weekends to carry out loco/C&W and PW maintenance, supported financially by armchair members.

Edited February 4 by Mayner

[Broithe]

Numbers comes into it. There's a lot of people on the Big Island, but as potential volunteers and as potential visitors.

Living in both places, I know more people in Ireland actually involved in heritage activities of various kinds than in I do in England.

There are cultural issues, too, railways just aren't 'as important' to people in Ireland

It's a matter of what is possible and viable. If people aren't interested as volunteers or visitors, than so be it, unfortunately perhaps...

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

Numbers comes into it. There's a lot of people on the Big Island, but as potential volunteers and as potential visitors.

Living in both places, I know more people in Ireland actually involved in heritage activities of various kinds than in I do in England.

There are cultural issues, too, railways just aren't 'as important' to people in Ireland

It's a matter of what is possible and viable. If people aren't interested as volunteers or visitors, than so be it, unfortunately perhaps...

I think its more a cultural (preparedness to donate money/get stuck in) than a numbers issue in terms of potential volunteers and visitors.

New Zealand has a similar population to Ireland (approx 5million people) spread out over a land mass similar size to England, Scotland and Wales with many successful heritage railways and museums on both North and South Islands and with 142 preserved steam locos of which approx 22 are operational.

While there are some large Tourist Train Operators like Dunedin Railways, Mainline Steam Trust and Steam Incorporated a lot basic grass roots operations including community groups set up when the local branch line closed, people interested in Bush Tramways (Logging Railways) or local farmers that recovered and restored steam locos that had been dumped in rivers including some rare Rogers 19th Century Columbia type Locos. https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22911730

Many of these schemes are operated by volunteers, financed out of the back pocket, often operating once-twice monthly with less than 10k visitors annually but they still carry often driven by local pride the descendants of the people that settled the land during the 19th/early 20th Century.

 

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, Mayner said:

I think its more a cultural (preparedness to donate money/get stuck in) than a numbers issue in terms of potential volunteers and visitors.

New Zealand has a similar population to Ireland (approx 5million people) spread out over a land mass similar size to England, Scotland and Wales with many successful heritage railways and museums on both North and South Islands and with 142 preserved steam locos of which approx 22 are operational.

While there are some large Tourist Train Operators like Dunedin Railways, Mainline Steam Trust and Steam Incorporated a lot basic grass roots operations including community groups set up when the local branch line closed, people interested in Bush Tramways (Logging Railways) or local farmers that recovered and restored steam locos that had been dumped in rivers including some rare Rogers 19th Century Columbia type Locos. https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22911730

Many of these schemes are operated by volunteers, financed out of the back pocket, often operating once-twice monthly with less than 10k visitors annually but they still carry often driven by local pride the descendants of the people that settled the land during the 19th/early 20th Century.

 

This is precisely what we lack. If its related to 1690 or 1916 we'll mark it. If it's cultural we probably will. Industrial heritage - per head of the population here - nope. Your New Zealand comparison puts us to shame, and we've 7 million on this island nowadays!

[minister_for_hardship]

Heaps of people give hours of unpaid, unglamorous background work for GAA, Tidy Towns, beach litter picking etc etc here. Of course local pride/environmentalism comes into it, it's regarded as a social outlet, they don't dig into their pockets much apart from the odd draw or purchase of inexpensive clothing or equipment and doesn't require training as such.

You would struggle to find people prepared to do likewise on a heritage railway. Granted there's some specialised knowledge involved that the general public may not have, but most anyone can wield a paintbrush. The interest just isn't there though.

[Ironroad]

19 hours ago, Mayner said:

I think part of the problem in Ireland North and South is the expectation that the Government with provide grant grants for heritage schemes rather than the owners or supporters groups putting their hands in their own pockets. Possibly tied up with the culture that developed that overseas companies would only invest in Ireland if given tax breaks or that it was necessary to provide tax breaks to encourage people to buy their own home (mortgage interest relief) or encourage investors to build apartments (S23), hotels and tourist accommodation.  Biggest culture shock moving to New Zealand was that I paid about the same amount of net tax without tax relief on mortgage, medical insurance or pension contributions.  

John, I'm a bit surprised by these statements. You seem to be implying that people in Ireland only respond to handouts. Back in the day why would any foreign company consider investing in Ireland (a small island economy) when right next door they had an available ready made big market  and economies of scale. The policy of providing incentives was justified and has been successful. As for mortgage interest tax relief, I don't think this is as generous as it once was, but this was a form of wealth redistribution and it helped people who otherwise had no chance of home ownership, and home ownership is one of the best forms of wealth building. 

As has been mentioned, many people do get involved voluntarily in many areas. The tidy towns initiative changed the face of the country, and we punch above our weight in sports due to the dedication of many volunteers. Maybe the interest just doesn't exist for railways, but it seems to me that the Royal Canal might well have long since been filled in had it not been to the work of dedicated volunteers who mucked in to restore it.

[Mayner]

On 6/2/2024 at 5:36 AM, Ironroad said:

John, I'm a bit surprised by these statements. You seem to be implying that people in Ireland only respond to handouts. Back in the day why would any foreign company consider investing in Ireland (a small island economy) when right next door they had an available ready made big market  and economies of scale. The policy of providing incentives was justified and has been successful. As for mortgage interest tax relief, I don't think this is as generous as it once was, but this was a form of wealth redistribution and it helped people who otherwise had no chance of home ownership, and home ownership is one of the best forms of wealth building. 

As has been mentioned, many people do get involved voluntarily in many areas. The tidy towns initiative changed the face of the country, and we punch above our weight in sports due to the dedication of many volunteers. Maybe the interest just doesn't exist for railways, but it seems to me that the Royal Canal might well have long since been filled in had it not been to the work of dedicated volunteers who mucked in to restore it.

My comments were based on my experiences living and working in Ireland, Great Britain and New Zealand. Since the 60s the Irish Government has been very astute in setting up conditions (tax breaks, education system and IDA) to attract inward overseas investment which has been good for the country, the downside is that it earned Ireland the reputation of being a tax haven and unfair competition.

Living in Scotland during the 90s there was a belief that Scottish Enterprise was wasting their time in attempting to compete with the IDA to attract new industry, although the NZ Government considered setting up a financial service sector during the 2100s providing similar tax breaks to Ireland was considered politically unacceptable and potentially damaging to international relations.

Working in the construction sector Irish Government's policies of mortgage interest relief, home buyers grants and tax breaks to developers contributed directly to todays problems with housing affordability and high construction costs in Ireland. The ending of price control (Certificate of Reasonable Value) and the introduction of 1st time buyer grants during the 70s lead to a shift from building what we now term 'affordable homes" (3 bed terrace) to larger more expensive homes, the builders simply pocketed the £1000 1st time buyer grant (7% cost avg new home 1976) by increasing the price by £1000 and pocketing subsequent increases as the grant was increased to £4,000. The company I worked for shifted from building £14,000 to slightly smaller nos or £48,000 houses in 3 years as grants and increasing rates of mortgage relief came into effect.

Developer tax breaks introduced from the late 80s onwards became were more insidious as already viable developments did not take place without a tax break, investors withdrawing their stake once they received their tax break potentially leaving the business with insufficient working capital to continue operation. I built a 150 bedroom hotel in a prominent Dublin location under one of these schemes during the late 90s, the Irish owners selling their stake upon completion. 

The Tralee and Blennerville appears to have been built under such a scheme, the original investors apparently able to walk away leaving Tralee Council with the liability of a disused railway when the business ran out of working capital.

Over centralisation with successive Governments stripping Councils of their powers and CIEs monopoly position on surface public transport has not helped to preservation movement. In many Countries Regional and City Councils have responsibility for funding and operating public transport services and have bought and leased closed railway lines to preservation groups and private operators. The position with Youghal or Fenit Branches could have been radically different had Councils powers to acquire and operate closed railway lines.

One of the lightbulb moments after settling in New Zealand was the realising that I was paying roughly the same amount of net tax as I paid in Ireland or the UK without the same deductible expenses (National Insurance, Mortgage Interest, Health Insurance, Pension contributions).

I won't get into sport New Zealander are extremely competitive in all sporting disciplines, though Munster and Ireland both considered a force to be reckoned with and an Honourable Opponent in Rugby Union

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

What sport besides rugby are New Zealand extremely competitive at?